May I be guided by Vivien?

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Ivy
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:42 am

Re: May I be guided by Vivien?

Postby Ivy » Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:34 pm

Dear Vivien,
“it is so easy to be drawn to the thought that "separate self exists" again”- What is it exactly that can be drawn to a thought that ‘separate self exists’?
Attention goes to a thought that "separate self exists" and the self-image especially when interact with people.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No. There is no a separate entity 'self', 'me' , 'I'. There wasn't ever a separate entity, either.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
When perceptions happen, thoughts interpret the experiences as "I see, I hear, I smell, I think, I feel". Actually there are only perceptions happening without an experiencer. And thoughts interpret the image of "the body" as "my body" or "me". Because of the above, the illusion of separate self is formed.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
The belief of thoughts has loosened. Before this dialogue started, it was hard to see that thoughts interpret almost everyting: sound, image, taste, sensation, smell and thoughts themselves. Now everything is not as what I thought them were. The beliefs of what things are have loosened.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
When it has been seen that the body is not as what I thought it was. When eyes close, the body doesn't exist, there are only perceptions happening. When eyes open, this body is just an image, not "me" or "my body" as what thoughts interpret.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Things happen by themselves. This body does what need to be done, too. The body's movements may be affected by thoughts, and another thought interprets this condition as " I make decisions, I have intentions, free will, I choose and control". It's only thoughts' interpretations. Actually there is no an entity to do, decide, choose and control anything, or have intentions and free will. There are only thoughts about "decision, intention, free will, choice and control" arise. And the thought of responsiblity may arise, and the body's movement may be affected by this thought, but there is no a separate I to responsible for something.
For example, my mother had a physical examination in the hospital, this body did what needed to be done automatically. Sometimes thoughts about "I should be more careful" or "I should be more responsible" arised, and there were some sensations called "tension" arise. Sensations and the movements of this body may be affected by those thoughts, but there is no an entity to have free will to control, choose or decide something.
6) Anything to add?
Nothing to add so far. And thank you for guiding again.

Regards,
Ivy

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Vivien
Posts: 9122
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: May I be guided by Vivien?

Postby Vivien » Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:42 am

Dear Ivy,

Thank you for answering the questions.

One of the guides asks:
'The body's movements may be affected by thoughts
Could you take another look at this - is this what's going on?
Describe exactly how, the process by which a thought affects the body's movements.
Which comes first, the movement or the thought?
Are you certain the thought is not just commentating and guessing what the body is doing?


Love, Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Ivy
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:42 am

Re: May I be guided by Vivien?

Postby Ivy » Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:37 pm

Dear Vivien,
Ivy: "The body's movements may be affected by thoughts."

Could you take another look at this - is this what's going on?
Describe exactly how, the process by which a thought affects the body's movements.
When watch TV for a period of time, thoughts arise" There is still some housework need to be done. Shouldn't spend so much time on watching TV." The body may move because of the thought or not. Sometimes the body moves when thoughts arise. Sometimes the body just doesn't move a bit until attention keeps going to the thoughts.
Which comes first, the movement or the thought?
Are you certain the thought is not just commentating and guessing what the body is doing?

Most of the time the body just moves by itself fluently. Thoughts may interpret what the body is doing sometimes and another thought labels this situation as " "I" am doing..." " "I " have free will to control the body to do...." And sometimes thoughts arise first and the body follows the thoughts as how I described in last answer.
So most of the the body just moves by itself without a thought, sometimes movements come first and thoughts interpret the movements, and sometimes thoughts arise first then the body follows the thoughts.

Regards,
Ivy

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Vivien
Posts: 9122
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: May I be guided by Vivien?

Postby Vivien » Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:27 pm

Dear Ivy,
most of the the body just moves by itself without a thought, sometimes movements come first and thoughts interpret the movements, and sometimes thoughts arise first then the body follows the thoughts
That is all describing association (x then y, y then x).
However, is there any evidence in experience of causation, and evidence that the thoughts are actually affecting or making the body move?
If so describe that process to me.


Love, Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Ivy
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:42 am

Re: May I be guided by Vivien?

Postby Ivy » Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:51 am

Dear Vivien,
However, is there any evidence in experience of causation, and evidence that the thoughts are actually affecting or making the body move?
If so describe that process to me.
No, there is no evidence in experience that the thoughts are actually affecting or making the body move. It's just an association between body's movements and thoughts which has been observed .

Regards,
Ivy

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 9122
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: May I be guided by Vivien?

Postby Vivien » Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:37 am

Dear Ivy,

None of the guides have any more questions.
I'm sending you a private message, so please check your inbox.

Love, Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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