Did you choose to have a conversation with me?
Have you ever chosen anything?
Do you have any choice over what reply you will be sending in response to this?
If there even a separate 'you' replying?
How do you feel?
Are you confident that you have seen through 'the illusion of the separate self'?
Xain ♥
Thread for 'MichelleG'
Re: Thread for 'MichelleG'
I don't feel any different. Honestly, I have no idea how things happen, although there seems to be a relationship between various things that happen, as in one thing leads to another. What led me to choose to have a conversation with you? Honestly, it seems as though "I" did it...because it was important to "me." That's just the old habit, though, probably...the old habit of thinking that there is an "I" and it is in control. It's so hard to break this way of thinking! I no longer believe any thoughts that come into awareness... But I'm finding it hard to let go of the idea that I am somebody. If I'm not somebody, what am I? Maybe that's the missing piece. If there is no self that is permanent, what is there than is permanent? I feel as thought I'm lazy...it's laziness that keeps me from knowing/sensing the illusion of the separate self. It seems to require effort -- mental effort -- to keep the understanding of no-self front and center on my mind. On another topic, and please ignore this if you feel it is not relevant to this work, but i feel that the spiritual realization I have experienced thus far has resulted in a period of inaction, which feels like passivity..complete indecisiveness and inability to feel any sense of motivation or determination or direction. Perhaps in my mind I equate the realization of no-self with inactivity/stagnation/a zombie-like existence. This is scary...and the fear is probably more intense than what I am consciously aware of. I go back to the Nissargadatta quote...I feel your guidance as focused on the "I am nothing" aspect of reality...but what about the "I am everything" aspect of reality? If I am nothing -- no one -- then what? Do you see what I mean? If I see through the illusion of the separate self, where does that leave me?
Re: Thread for 'MichelleG'
For the moment, ignore what others have said and what you have read. Concentrate only . . . ONLY . . . on what can be found / discovered, and what has been discovered so far.I go back to the Nissargadatta quote...I feel your guidance as focused on the "I am nothing" aspect of reality...but what about the "I am everything" aspect of reality? If I am nothing -- no one -- then what?
But who's thinking?the old habit of thinking that there is an "I" and it is in control. It's so hard to break this way of thinking!
Who can break it? Or wants to break it?
What 'I' has the idea that they are an 'I'?But I'm finding it hard to let go of the idea that I am somebody.
If a thought appears 'I am somebody' - Who's having that thought?
What is the 'I' in the thought? What does it reference or point to?
Is 'no self' an understanding? A mental position or belief?It seems to require effort -- mental effort -- to keep the understanding of no-self front and center on my mind.
Or is there just 'no separate self' - And there's never been a separate self (just ideas about one)?
A zombie-like existence for who?Perhaps in my mind I equate the realization of no-self with inactivity/stagnation/a zombie-like existence.
Who?If I see through the illusion of the separate self, where does that leave me?
Xain ♥
Re: Thread for 'MichelleG'
Who's thinking?
--Thoughts "appear" in awareness. Based on direct experience only, it is not possible for this mind-body to draw a conclusion (i.e., more thoughts) as to where they come from or "who" is thinking them
Who can break / who wants to break the habit of thinking that "I" am somebody?
--"I" do...and "I" is a thought...a set of ideas...an image...a belief...an illusion. Or, "I" could be awareness--the sense of knowingness--of knowing that thoughts are appearing, knowing that fingers are typing. (Can awareness do or want anything? Not that I'm aware of!). If there is no "I" to do or want anything, then what? Then there is just presence...beingness (this is unnerving). So, there's just the idea, "I," combined with the idea of wanting to stop thinking that there is an "I." All just ideas from somewhere.
What "I" has the idea that they are an "I"?
--Wow...that's is more challenging somehow...There seems to be a "Higher" "I" that is observing from a higher point of view...a metta "I"...this is making my brain hurt...trying to hard...but the simple and obvious answer is that this "I" is also just a thought. Or, again, this "I" is awareness...which goes back to the question of what awareness is...awareness seems not to have any discernible qualities
If a thought appears 'I am somebody' - Who's having that thought? What is the 'I' in the thought? What does it reference or point to?
--The thought just appears in awareness...and then disappears...I really can't identify where it comes from / who's having it. It's appearing in awareness to this being, this mind-body...that's all I can say. The "I" in the thought "I am somebody" is referencing the thinker...the entity to which the thought appears. The "I" is what the thinker (i.e. the source of thought, the awareness that perceives the thought) believes itself to be.
Is 'no self' an understanding? A mental position or belief? Or is there just 'no separate self' - And there's never been a separate self (just ideas about one)?
--If it were an understanding, it would be a belief, i.e., a thought...something without substance. This guidance is showing that "no-self" is reality, not something to believe in. So, the real challenge is not believing in a separate self. But the idea that there is a separate "me" continues, via habit / conditioning. Things that happen are interpreted as happening to the idea, "me," or as a result of something the idea, "me," did or didn't do. It's mental habit that a mental habit wants to break!
A zombie-like existence for who?
Who is left anywhere?
--If there is no "me" to experience life, whether like a zombie or a dynamo or something in between, then what? Does nothing change with this realization? If nothing changes, why would a (supposed) "person" seek the realization, go through this process? Why did this mind-body -- "me -- go on-line, find LU, find you and begin the guiding? What force resulted in "you" and "I'" going through this exercise? And to what end? ( I guess might as well ask you why anything at all happens.) Is it back to the Buddhist teaching that everything causes everything -- there is no independent causality? You and I went through this guidance exercise because of everything that went before to cause us to end up doing this. Is that it? You might ask, "Who wants to know?" Very scary. In the past (prior to this guidance) when the sense of no-self felt real, there was also a sense of freedom/liberation. That feeling is not present now. If there is a problem it's probably one of seeking. Still seeking.
--Thoughts "appear" in awareness. Based on direct experience only, it is not possible for this mind-body to draw a conclusion (i.e., more thoughts) as to where they come from or "who" is thinking them
Who can break / who wants to break the habit of thinking that "I" am somebody?
--"I" do...and "I" is a thought...a set of ideas...an image...a belief...an illusion. Or, "I" could be awareness--the sense of knowingness--of knowing that thoughts are appearing, knowing that fingers are typing. (Can awareness do or want anything? Not that I'm aware of!). If there is no "I" to do or want anything, then what? Then there is just presence...beingness (this is unnerving). So, there's just the idea, "I," combined with the idea of wanting to stop thinking that there is an "I." All just ideas from somewhere.
What "I" has the idea that they are an "I"?
--Wow...that's is more challenging somehow...There seems to be a "Higher" "I" that is observing from a higher point of view...a metta "I"...this is making my brain hurt...trying to hard...but the simple and obvious answer is that this "I" is also just a thought. Or, again, this "I" is awareness...which goes back to the question of what awareness is...awareness seems not to have any discernible qualities
If a thought appears 'I am somebody' - Who's having that thought? What is the 'I' in the thought? What does it reference or point to?
--The thought just appears in awareness...and then disappears...I really can't identify where it comes from / who's having it. It's appearing in awareness to this being, this mind-body...that's all I can say. The "I" in the thought "I am somebody" is referencing the thinker...the entity to which the thought appears. The "I" is what the thinker (i.e. the source of thought, the awareness that perceives the thought) believes itself to be.
Is 'no self' an understanding? A mental position or belief? Or is there just 'no separate self' - And there's never been a separate self (just ideas about one)?
--If it were an understanding, it would be a belief, i.e., a thought...something without substance. This guidance is showing that "no-self" is reality, not something to believe in. So, the real challenge is not believing in a separate self. But the idea that there is a separate "me" continues, via habit / conditioning. Things that happen are interpreted as happening to the idea, "me," or as a result of something the idea, "me," did or didn't do. It's mental habit that a mental habit wants to break!
A zombie-like existence for who?
Who is left anywhere?
--If there is no "me" to experience life, whether like a zombie or a dynamo or something in between, then what? Does nothing change with this realization? If nothing changes, why would a (supposed) "person" seek the realization, go through this process? Why did this mind-body -- "me -- go on-line, find LU, find you and begin the guiding? What force resulted in "you" and "I'" going through this exercise? And to what end? ( I guess might as well ask you why anything at all happens.) Is it back to the Buddhist teaching that everything causes everything -- there is no independent causality? You and I went through this guidance exercise because of everything that went before to cause us to end up doing this. Is that it? You might ask, "Who wants to know?" Very scary. In the past (prior to this guidance) when the sense of no-self felt real, there was also a sense of freedom/liberation. That feeling is not present now. If there is a problem it's probably one of seeking. Still seeking.
Re: Thread for 'MichelleG'
For the moment, ignore what others have said and what you have read. Concentrate only . . . ONLY . . . on what can be found / discovered, and what has been discovered so far.
Hmmmm . . .
From your last reply, it would seem that we have taken a backward step . . . or perhaps my questions were a little too 'open' and not clear enough.
It was requested to put aside all non-dual teaching, concepts and beliefs and approach this freshly but much of what you replied appear to be from this (the awareness approach / teachings). This is nothing at all to do with 'realisation' - this is all mental chatter.
Please put all the 'mental stuff' aside from now on.
For this guidance - If 'I' is referred to, it is always a reference to a separate self, a person, a 'mind-body' as you suggested it perhaps.
'Direct Experience' as some of the other guides refer to is simply a pointer to the senses. It is a request to answer all questions from the perspective of what can be found using the senses, rather than analysis and mental consideration.
OK.
What I would like you to do is to consider 'I' (a separate self) - I would like you to go back and re-read all the guidance we have done so far - in the work with the senses - in the work of 'control' and 'choice' - in the work of 'thoughts'. Once you have done that, I would like you to answer the following questions ONLY from the perspective of what can be found or established using the senses.
If it is said 'I am thinking', then what is 'I' . . . something to be located and found or an idea?
Who can break it? Or wants to break it?
Can an 'I' that wants to break something be found? Or just thoughts ABOUT an 'I'?
What 'I' can be found that has ideas?
What 'I' can be found that is trying to let go of an idea?
If a thought appears 'I am somebody' - Who or what is having that thought?
Don't think about the answer - What can be found? LOOK!
What is the 'I' in the thought? What does it reference or point to? Something to be located and discovered?
Or just more thoughts?
Look for this 'I' - Describe it - Tell me what is looks like - What shape it is.
Or is this 'I' nothing more than an idea?
Again, LOOK - Tell me what 'I' is being referred to here that is going to live a zombie existence.
Is there an 'I' here right now that is living an existence anyway?
LOOK - What is this 'I' that is living right now?
Xain ♥
Hmmmm . . .
From your last reply, it would seem that we have taken a backward step . . . or perhaps my questions were a little too 'open' and not clear enough.
It was requested to put aside all non-dual teaching, concepts and beliefs and approach this freshly but much of what you replied appear to be from this (the awareness approach / teachings). This is nothing at all to do with 'realisation' - this is all mental chatter.
It's not meant to. This tells me (and you) that you are considering this entirely wrongly. This is nothing at all about thinking what the right answer might be at all from previous analysis and study.this is making my brain hurt...trying to hard
Please put all the 'mental stuff' aside from now on.
For this guidance - If 'I' is referred to, it is always a reference to a separate self, a person, a 'mind-body' as you suggested it perhaps.
'Direct Experience' as some of the other guides refer to is simply a pointer to the senses. It is a request to answer all questions from the perspective of what can be found using the senses, rather than analysis and mental consideration.
OK.
What I would like you to do is to consider 'I' (a separate self) - I would like you to go back and re-read all the guidance we have done so far - in the work with the senses - in the work of 'control' and 'choice' - in the work of 'thoughts'. Once you have done that, I would like you to answer the following questions ONLY from the perspective of what can be found or established using the senses.
Can you find a who or what that is thinking?the old habit of thinking that there is an "I" and it is in control. It's so hard to break this way of thinking!
If it is said 'I am thinking', then what is 'I' . . . something to be located and found or an idea?
Who can break it? Or wants to break it?
Can an 'I' that wants to break something be found? Or just thoughts ABOUT an 'I'?
What 'I' has the idea that they are an 'I'?But I'm finding it hard to let go of the idea that I am somebody.
What 'I' can be found that has ideas?
What 'I' can be found that is trying to let go of an idea?
If a thought appears 'I am somebody' - Who or what is having that thought?
Don't think about the answer - What can be found? LOOK!
What is the 'I' in the thought? What does it reference or point to? Something to be located and discovered?
Or just more thoughts?
What is this 'I' that is making mental effort?It seems to require effort -- mental effort -- to keep the understanding of no-self front and center on my mind.
Look for this 'I' - Describe it - Tell me what is looks like - What shape it is.
Or is this 'I' nothing more than an idea?
A zombie-like existence for who?Perhaps in my mind I equate the realization of no-self with inactivity/stagnation/a zombie-like existence.
Again, LOOK - Tell me what 'I' is being referred to here that is going to live a zombie existence.
Is there an 'I' here right now that is living an existence anyway?
LOOK - What is this 'I' that is living right now?
What is this 'me'?If I see through the illusion of the separate self, where does that leave me?
Xain ♥
Re: Thread for 'MichelleG'
Sorry I haven't written at all past few days. The reaction to your last post was to feel discouraged, and thus take a break from the guidance. I would like to continue now if that is OK.
I re-read through all of your guidance. Perhaps was is "tricky" is that I know what the answers are supposed to be and that gets in the way of simply perceiving what is there.
So I will focus just on what can be perceived in answering your questions:
Can you find a who or what is thinking?
--No...there are only thoughts and sensations...that's all that is perceived
If it is said that "I" am thinking, then what is "I"? Something to be located and found or an idea?
--"I" is definitely a thought...If I think, "I" am thinking," or "Joe is thinking" or "the chair is thinking" it all feels the same. They are all thoughts, with the subject being interchangeable and it not making any difference "who" is thinking, since it's all just thought. There's no more reference point for "I" than there is for "the chair" (Hope you don't mind my riff on your question, but it seems to help drive home the fact that these are just thoughts).
Who can break it?
--This way of thinking cannot be broken...thoughts cannot be controlled.
Or wants to break it?
--"I" wants to break it, with "I" being a thought -- a thought that is combined with energy/emotion, the energy of wanting/desire/aggression/resistance which is felt in the body
Can an 'I' that wants to break something be found? Or just thoughts ABOUT an 'I'?
--No "I" can be found....just the thought, "I," can be found, along with, as mentioned above, a sensation in the body--a charged feeling
What 'I' has the idea that they are an 'I'?
--It's all just thoughts as far back as "I" go. Even if I look for a "soul" or something like that within the body, or even just a sense of a soul, I find sensation, which I might call beingness or awareness of all incoming perceptions, and I find thoughts. That's it.
What 'I' can be found that has ideas?
--There's no "I" that has ideas...ideas just pop into awareness, sometimes willy-nilly, sometimes one following from another, and then they make their departure. "I" is an idea, it's at the same level of idea -- "I" is equal to "idea" so it can't have an idea.
What 'I' can be found that is trying to let go of an idea?
--There's no "I" to be found that is trying to let go of an idea. There are thoughts, combined with a physical sensation/charge/energy that might be described as frustration...this is what constitutes , "trying to let go of an idea"
If a thought appears 'I am somebody' - Who or what is having that thought?
--The thought is appearing amidst -- or simultaneous with -- awareness of physical sensations -- there is awareness of the thought and awareness of physical sensations -- that's all there is -- no sign of a "who" who is having the thought.
What is the 'I' in the thought? What does it reference or point to? Something to be located and discovered?
Or just more thoughts?
--The "I" in the thought is a thought. It does, at times, though, seem to reference awareness...the total sense of sensation that is felt with the thought.
I'm going to take a break and answer the rest of the questions a bit later...with a fresh mind...
I re-read through all of your guidance. Perhaps was is "tricky" is that I know what the answers are supposed to be and that gets in the way of simply perceiving what is there.
So I will focus just on what can be perceived in answering your questions:
Can you find a who or what is thinking?
--No...there are only thoughts and sensations...that's all that is perceived
If it is said that "I" am thinking, then what is "I"? Something to be located and found or an idea?
--"I" is definitely a thought...If I think, "I" am thinking," or "Joe is thinking" or "the chair is thinking" it all feels the same. They are all thoughts, with the subject being interchangeable and it not making any difference "who" is thinking, since it's all just thought. There's no more reference point for "I" than there is for "the chair" (Hope you don't mind my riff on your question, but it seems to help drive home the fact that these are just thoughts).
Who can break it?
--This way of thinking cannot be broken...thoughts cannot be controlled.
Or wants to break it?
--"I" wants to break it, with "I" being a thought -- a thought that is combined with energy/emotion, the energy of wanting/desire/aggression/resistance which is felt in the body
Can an 'I' that wants to break something be found? Or just thoughts ABOUT an 'I'?
--No "I" can be found....just the thought, "I," can be found, along with, as mentioned above, a sensation in the body--a charged feeling
What 'I' has the idea that they are an 'I'?
--It's all just thoughts as far back as "I" go. Even if I look for a "soul" or something like that within the body, or even just a sense of a soul, I find sensation, which I might call beingness or awareness of all incoming perceptions, and I find thoughts. That's it.
What 'I' can be found that has ideas?
--There's no "I" that has ideas...ideas just pop into awareness, sometimes willy-nilly, sometimes one following from another, and then they make their departure. "I" is an idea, it's at the same level of idea -- "I" is equal to "idea" so it can't have an idea.
What 'I' can be found that is trying to let go of an idea?
--There's no "I" to be found that is trying to let go of an idea. There are thoughts, combined with a physical sensation/charge/energy that might be described as frustration...this is what constitutes , "trying to let go of an idea"
If a thought appears 'I am somebody' - Who or what is having that thought?
--The thought is appearing amidst -- or simultaneous with -- awareness of physical sensations -- there is awareness of the thought and awareness of physical sensations -- that's all there is -- no sign of a "who" who is having the thought.
What is the 'I' in the thought? What does it reference or point to? Something to be located and discovered?
Or just more thoughts?
--The "I" in the thought is a thought. It does, at times, though, seem to reference awareness...the total sense of sensation that is felt with the thought.
I'm going to take a break and answer the rest of the questions a bit later...with a fresh mind...
Re: Thread for 'MichelleG'
Continued from previous post:
What is this 'I' that is making mental effort?
--It is the "I" thought along with a physical sensation that could be described as contraction/charge/effort/mental focus on the thought, "I" and "am not anyone"
Look for this 'I' - Describe it - Tell me what is looks like - What shape it is.
Or is this 'I' nothing more than an idea?
--The idea, "I", occurs along with something that feels like focused attention when "I" think of the mental effort that "I" make. I don't know what is keeping the attention focused / making the effort. Perhaps it's an intention to do so, which, I guess, is basically a thought. The "I" is a thought without physical substance or characteristics.
A zombie-like existence for who?
--this mind-body organism...which is silly, because it will just do what it's going to do, without any "me" controlling it or not controlling it.
Again, LOOK - Tell me what 'I' is being referred to here that is going to live a zombie existence.
--No "I"...j
Is there an 'I' here right now that is living an existence anyway?
--No
LOOK - What is this 'I' that is living right now?
What is this 'me'?
--There's no one to be left anywhere. There is just hereness, sensations coming in, thoughts occuring, fingers moving, sensations within the body,
An aside: I just went for a walk and started getting angry about something my ex-husband said earlier today. I asked, "Who is getting angry?" and it was more clear to me than ever, that there was just anger arising. And it didn't belong to anyone. And there was no one to blame for it. It was just phenomena. That was nice...the cessation of blame/judgement...the fact that the usual blame/judgement that follows such negative feelings didn't occur.
What is this 'I' that is making mental effort?
--It is the "I" thought along with a physical sensation that could be described as contraction/charge/effort/mental focus on the thought, "I" and "am not anyone"
Look for this 'I' - Describe it - Tell me what is looks like - What shape it is.
Or is this 'I' nothing more than an idea?
--The idea, "I", occurs along with something that feels like focused attention when "I" think of the mental effort that "I" make. I don't know what is keeping the attention focused / making the effort. Perhaps it's an intention to do so, which, I guess, is basically a thought. The "I" is a thought without physical substance or characteristics.
A zombie-like existence for who?
--this mind-body organism...which is silly, because it will just do what it's going to do, without any "me" controlling it or not controlling it.
Again, LOOK - Tell me what 'I' is being referred to here that is going to live a zombie existence.
--No "I"...j
Is there an 'I' here right now that is living an existence anyway?
--No
LOOK - What is this 'I' that is living right now?
What is this 'me'?
--There's no one to be left anywhere. There is just hereness, sensations coming in, thoughts occuring, fingers moving, sensations within the body,
An aside: I just went for a walk and started getting angry about something my ex-husband said earlier today. I asked, "Who is getting angry?" and it was more clear to me than ever, that there was just anger arising. And it didn't belong to anyone. And there was no one to blame for it. It was just phenomena. That was nice...the cessation of blame/judgement...the fact that the usual blame/judgement that follows such negative feelings didn't occur.
Re: Thread for 'MichelleG'
I am away from home for a few days and will be able to reply properly from Friday.
Xain x
Xain x
Re: Thread for 'MichelleG'
Sounds good...thank you.
Re: Thread for 'MichelleG'
I don't understand what you mean.The "I" in the thought is a thought. It does, at times, though, seem to reference awareness...the total sense of sensation that is felt with the thought.
At what stage does the thought "I" reference something that can be found - Give an example.
(For our investigation) if something cannot be found, it must only be a thought / idea.
Exactly. Keep on with this inquiry.I asked, "Who is getting angry?" and it was more clear to me than ever, that there was just anger arising. And it didn't belong to anyone. And there was no one to blame for it. It was just phenomena. That was nice...the cessation of blame/judgement...the fact that the usual blame/judgement that follows such negative feelings didn't occur.
Is "I" ever a real separate thing? Have you found one? Will you ever find one? Is there even a separate "you" looking!?
Xain x
Re: Thread for 'MichelleG'
Ok, I'll try to explain what I meant in that first quote box you included in your reply. So, what I am saying is that when "I" close my eyes and the thought, "I" occurs (or anytime, really), there is also awareness of body sensations, where my body is located in relation to its surroundings, body movements (mine), sounds...awareness of awareness is perhaps what I meant to convey.
I haven't found "I" as a separate thing other than a thought. I won't find an "I". However, I did have the thought that there could be an essence or spirit of some kind that is separate or and individual "me" that cannot be detected by human senses. That would require faith/belief...and of course that's not what we are talking about here.
Is there a separate "me" looking?
--What causes this organism/body-mind known as, "Michelle," to seek this guidance, to have sought spiritual wisdom for many years and in many ways? I don't know. The actions seem somehow associated with thoughts that arise, feelings of desire/longing that arise, and feelings of aversion that arise, but the relationship between all these isn't clear. Where do they come from? I find myself distraught and in tears because I don't know. Who is distraught? Who is in tears? No one, I guess. Tears and feelings of sadness or grief, or I don't know what, are just arising. So now the thoughts arising are: I really loved and cared about the separate person I thought I was and now she's "gone" (my idea of her is gone); it's like I've lost someone forever...even though she was just a concept, it feels like a loss. So, "who" lost her? Who is the "I" who loved and cared about someone? I get it...they are all just ideas. All the "I's" and "me's" are just ideas. IN REALITY, NO ONE WAS LOST AND NO ONE LOST ANYTHING...concepts have been lost/destroyed...seen for the illusion that they are...that's all. Sadness arises...a feeling of deadness appears...thought-feeling of resistance arises...thoughts occur that nothing matters and that this will make absolutely no difference..."I" will go on acting exactly like "I" did before....thought that this is impossible to believe. Who doesn't believe it? THERE'S NO ONE TO NOT BELIEVE IT. Belief or non-belief itself is just a thought.
(CAPITALS ARE FOR MY OWN BENEFIT -- THESE SEEM LIKE REALLY IMPACTFUL STATEMENTS).
That's it for now.
I haven't found "I" as a separate thing other than a thought. I won't find an "I". However, I did have the thought that there could be an essence or spirit of some kind that is separate or and individual "me" that cannot be detected by human senses. That would require faith/belief...and of course that's not what we are talking about here.
Is there a separate "me" looking?
--What causes this organism/body-mind known as, "Michelle," to seek this guidance, to have sought spiritual wisdom for many years and in many ways? I don't know. The actions seem somehow associated with thoughts that arise, feelings of desire/longing that arise, and feelings of aversion that arise, but the relationship between all these isn't clear. Where do they come from? I find myself distraught and in tears because I don't know. Who is distraught? Who is in tears? No one, I guess. Tears and feelings of sadness or grief, or I don't know what, are just arising. So now the thoughts arising are: I really loved and cared about the separate person I thought I was and now she's "gone" (my idea of her is gone); it's like I've lost someone forever...even though she was just a concept, it feels like a loss. So, "who" lost her? Who is the "I" who loved and cared about someone? I get it...they are all just ideas. All the "I's" and "me's" are just ideas. IN REALITY, NO ONE WAS LOST AND NO ONE LOST ANYTHING...concepts have been lost/destroyed...seen for the illusion that they are...that's all. Sadness arises...a feeling of deadness appears...thought-feeling of resistance arises...thoughts occur that nothing matters and that this will make absolutely no difference..."I" will go on acting exactly like "I" did before....thought that this is impossible to believe. Who doesn't believe it? THERE'S NO ONE TO NOT BELIEVE IT. Belief or non-belief itself is just a thought.
(CAPITALS ARE FOR MY OWN BENEFIT -- THESE SEEM LIKE REALLY IMPACTFUL STATEMENTS).
That's it for now.
Re: Thread for 'MichelleG'
Just as a pointer, feel free to communicate in normal language - No need to put I in quotes or anything.
What I am suggesting is that this is not helping you - Forget about 'awareness' for the time being, unless it is something specific you are finding in the investigation. Stick ONLY to looking for a separate self.
Who or what has faith and belief? Look for this 'I' right now . . . find one?
BUT I could read this to be an avoidance of looking so please answer this question directly and clearly:
Is there a separate person here being guided? LOOK - Can one be found?
Has there ever been a separate person being guided? LOOK - Is there one here now being guided?
Has there ever been a separate person answering any questions?
How do you feel now?
Xain ♥
P.S. "Belief or non-belief . . . it's just a thought" - Yes yes yes yes yes ♥ ♥
At this stage I am not suggesting this phrase is right or wrong.awareness of awareness is perhaps what I meant to convey
What I am suggesting is that this is not helping you - Forget about 'awareness' for the time being, unless it is something specific you are finding in the investigation. Stick ONLY to looking for a separate self.
Is faith/belief anything more than just another idea / thought appearing?However, I did have the thought that there could be an essence or spirit of some kind that is separate or and individual "me" that cannot be detected by human senses. That would require faith/belief...and of course that's not what we are talking about here.
Who or what has faith and belief? Look for this 'I' right now . . . find one?
In normal speaking, you came to the forum for guidance - sure.What causes this organism/body-mind known as, "Michelle," . . .
BUT I could read this to be an avoidance of looking so please answer this question directly and clearly:
Is there a separate person here being guided? LOOK - Can one be found?
Has there ever been a separate person being guided? LOOK - Is there one here now being guided?
Has there ever been a separate person answering any questions?
Bingo! It really is that simple. :-) ♥So, "who" lost her? Who is the "I" who loved and cared about someone? I get it...they are all just ideas. All the "I's" and "me's" are just ideas. IN REALITY, NO ONE WAS LOST AND NO ONE LOST ANYTHING...concepts have been lost/destroyed...seen for the illusion that they are...that's all. Sadness arises...a feeling of deadness appears...thought-feeling of resistance arises...thoughts occur that nothing matters and that this will make absolutely no difference..."I" will go on acting exactly like "I" did before....thought that this is impossible to believe. Who doesn't believe it? THERE'S NO ONE TO NOT BELIEVE IT. Belief or non-belief itself is just a thought.
(CAPITALS ARE FOR MY OWN BENEFIT -- THESE SEEM LIKE REALLY IMPACTFUL STATEMENTS)..
How do you feel now?
Xain ♥
P.S. "Belief or non-belief . . . it's just a thought" - Yes yes yes yes yes ♥ ♥
Re: Thread for 'MichelleG'
I was almost finished with my reply and hit the wrong button and all was gone...starting over again.
Beliefs are just thoughts that arise like any other thought. There's no one here to believe anything or not believe anything. Who has faith? Is there anyone here who has faith? No...just thought, thought, thought and more thought. Thought cannot have faith. Is there an "I" who has or could have faith or beliefs? Nope, just thought..the thought, "I."
Is there a separate person here being guided? LOOK - Can one be found?
--There is no separate person being guided. I looked, and there was, at most, the thought, "I." That, along with sensations occurring.
Has there ever been a separate person being guided? LOOK - Is there one here now being guided?
--No separate person being guided. Responses to your questions arise as I type. Thoughts arise. And then I just type what I type. There's no master controller controlling the responses or any of the process at this end.
Has there ever been a separate person answering any questions?
--No. There may have been a stronger thought of an "I" to which the guiding was happening and who was responding at certain points. It sometimes felts like there was an "I" experiencing something. But that passed. And now it's less stressful, seeing through the illusion of an "I" pretty consistently
How do I feel now?
Well, a lot of the time I feel so much freer -- free of self-punishing and self-doubting thoughts and worries because there is no self to punish or doubt. I seem to have more energy and perhaps am even sleeping better. However, behaviors occur that are puzzling and seem at odds with the illusion of self having been seen through. For instance, feelings of sadness and loneliness arose tonight when I found out my kids were supposed to stay with their dad tonight instead of me (I was expecting them to be with me). Even thinking about it now, these feelings arise again. They are the kind of feelings one would expect to arise when a person feels she is a separate "I" who has been left / abandoned (there are antecedents for this in my life). So if I've really seen through the illusion of a separate self, why do these feelings arise? I'm not saying that in that moment I believed that an "I" had been abandoned ...those kinds of thoughts and beliefs didn't arise so much...there were just the feelings, without much of a storyline about them. But there was some fear/anxiety that "I" would be facing a lonely night...the feelings were a little overwhelming for me to go straight to asking, "Who is going to be lonely?" which I probably would have done if they hadn't been so strong. So, wondering about the relationship between seeing through the illusion of self and feelings that arise that would seem to require belief in a separate self to even be arising...perhaps they are artifacts of past belief in a separate self? Or maybe the realization isn't all that deep at this point?
Beliefs are just thoughts that arise like any other thought. There's no one here to believe anything or not believe anything. Who has faith? Is there anyone here who has faith? No...just thought, thought, thought and more thought. Thought cannot have faith. Is there an "I" who has or could have faith or beliefs? Nope, just thought..the thought, "I."
Is there a separate person here being guided? LOOK - Can one be found?
--There is no separate person being guided. I looked, and there was, at most, the thought, "I." That, along with sensations occurring.
Has there ever been a separate person being guided? LOOK - Is there one here now being guided?
--No separate person being guided. Responses to your questions arise as I type. Thoughts arise. And then I just type what I type. There's no master controller controlling the responses or any of the process at this end.
Has there ever been a separate person answering any questions?
--No. There may have been a stronger thought of an "I" to which the guiding was happening and who was responding at certain points. It sometimes felts like there was an "I" experiencing something. But that passed. And now it's less stressful, seeing through the illusion of an "I" pretty consistently
How do I feel now?
Well, a lot of the time I feel so much freer -- free of self-punishing and self-doubting thoughts and worries because there is no self to punish or doubt. I seem to have more energy and perhaps am even sleeping better. However, behaviors occur that are puzzling and seem at odds with the illusion of self having been seen through. For instance, feelings of sadness and loneliness arose tonight when I found out my kids were supposed to stay with their dad tonight instead of me (I was expecting them to be with me). Even thinking about it now, these feelings arise again. They are the kind of feelings one would expect to arise when a person feels she is a separate "I" who has been left / abandoned (there are antecedents for this in my life). So if I've really seen through the illusion of a separate self, why do these feelings arise? I'm not saying that in that moment I believed that an "I" had been abandoned ...those kinds of thoughts and beliefs didn't arise so much...there were just the feelings, without much of a storyline about them. But there was some fear/anxiety that "I" would be facing a lonely night...the feelings were a little overwhelming for me to go straight to asking, "Who is going to be lonely?" which I probably would have done if they hadn't been so strong. So, wondering about the relationship between seeing through the illusion of self and feelings that arise that would seem to require belief in a separate self to even be arising...perhaps they are artifacts of past belief in a separate self? Or maybe the realization isn't all that deep at this point?
Re: Thread for 'MichelleG'
The realisation affects different people in different ways.
Let's have a look at some of the things you mention.
Although it would appear that you've definitely 'seen through the illusion of self', it's often useful to examine stuff lightly in the way that we have been doing.
I am happy to have a look at this with you.
About what you wrote - Inquire:
Do you have even the slightest amount of control over this situation or your apparent reaction to it?
Sure, we can still communicate and say 'person' - But has there ever been a separate person feeling anything ever?
Again, is there any choice or control?
Has there ever been a 'person' who could realise something or be changed by it (other than in thoughts)?
Perhaps deeper:
If 'you' have no choice or control, do others? (You may examine 'others' deeper at a later date).
About the previous memory of your life - Did it happen to 'you'?
Are these memories anything other than thoughts arising . . . not being witnessed by 'you', controlled by 'you' or relating to 'you'? What power do they really have?
Even if the memory suggest a 'you' that lived a life, what choice or control was there in any of it?
Could it possibly have gone any other way?
Inquiry can still be made. Conditioning of the body and mind will still appear to operate . . . even if this conditioning isn't owned or operated by a separate self. This conditioning can still be examined.
I am told that in Buddhist terms, passing through the gate is 'stream entry' - Entering a stream, it would be wrong to expect everything to be washed away in an instant. But the fact that you are in a stream means it is inevitable for conditioning to be slowly washed away . . . seeing 'the operation of thoughts creating an illusory self' is now certain for you . . . and you can take this realisation with you to examine everything as it comes up . . . and it 'just happens' without a separate 'you' involved anyway :-)
Don't push feelings away - Instead, go fully into them.
If a feeling is there . . . it's just there. It's already been accepted in.
Xain ♥
Let's have a look at some of the things you mention.
Although it would appear that you've definitely 'seen through the illusion of self', it's often useful to examine stuff lightly in the way that we have been doing.
Perhaps this was an expectation about this process - That feelings or negative thoughts would not re-occur.For instance, feelings of sadness and loneliness arose tonight when I found out my kids were supposed to stay with their dad tonight instead of me (I was expecting them to be with me).
I am happy to have a look at this with you.
About what you wrote - Inquire:
Do you have even the slightest amount of control over this situation or your apparent reaction to it?
I understand, but can you notice the story here? "When a 'person' feels they are . . . "They are the kind of feelings one would expect to arise when a person feels she is a separate "I" who has been left / abandoned (there are antecedents for this in my life).
Sure, we can still communicate and say 'person' - But has there ever been a separate person feeling anything ever?
Again, is there any choice or control?
Has there ever been a 'person' who could realise something or be changed by it (other than in thoughts)?
Perhaps deeper:
If 'you' have no choice or control, do others? (You may examine 'others' deeper at a later date).
About the previous memory of your life - Did it happen to 'you'?
Are these memories anything other than thoughts arising . . . not being witnessed by 'you', controlled by 'you' or relating to 'you'? What power do they really have?
Even if the memory suggest a 'you' that lived a life, what choice or control was there in any of it?
Could it possibly have gone any other way?
It is tempting after the gate to go into 'there is no-one here mode'.The feelings were a little overwhelming for me to go straight to asking, "Who is going to be lonely?" which I probably would have done if they hadn't been so strong.
Inquiry can still be made. Conditioning of the body and mind will still appear to operate . . . even if this conditioning isn't owned or operated by a separate self. This conditioning can still be examined.
I am told that in Buddhist terms, passing through the gate is 'stream entry' - Entering a stream, it would be wrong to expect everything to be washed away in an instant. But the fact that you are in a stream means it is inevitable for conditioning to be slowly washed away . . . seeing 'the operation of thoughts creating an illusory self' is now certain for you . . . and you can take this realisation with you to examine everything as it comes up . . . and it 'just happens' without a separate 'you' involved anyway :-)
Don't push feelings away - Instead, go fully into them.
If a feeling is there . . . it's just there. It's already been accepted in.
Xain ♥
Re: Thread for 'MichelleG'
Do you have even the slightest amount of control over this situation or your apparent reaction to it?
--No. I can see how -- in the old way of viewing things as if there were a separate self -- it would seem like I made the choice to ask that the kids come back to my house (which I did, and which was a better outcome for me). But I understand that what I did -- ask that the kids come back to my house last night -- just arose spontaneously. The thought occurred to do this...other thoughts about the consequences of make the request arose...and then I made the request. I can see the old point of view, i.e., that "I" weighed the factors of the situation and came to a conclusion about what to do and did it. But it's so much clearer now that there's no "I" and there's no control. Things just spontaneously happen due to unknown forces or effects. And it's so much more interesting that way.
Sure, we can still communicate and say 'person' - But has there ever been a separate person feeling anything ever? Again, is there any choice or control?
--Nope. The kid just thought there was a "me" to whom things were being done, like being left alone. And that's what caused the pain and anxiety -- the story that separate people with control over what they did chose to do something "to" me, another separate person.
Has there ever been a 'person' who could realise something or be changed by it (other than in thoughts)?
--No...the stream of thoughts can change, the beliefs can change, the behaviors can change...or, it would probably be more accurate to say that they constantly change...they are never exactly the same...but no one is in control of the change and there's no solid, permanent entity to be changed by anything
Perhaps deeper:
If 'you' have no choice or control, do others? (You may examine 'others' deeper at a later date).
--No they do not. If there's no "me" to have choice or control, there's no "you' to have choice or control either. This is a fallacy...
About the previous memory of your life - Did it happen to 'you'?
--It happened to a body-mind/organism...but not even "to" it...the body-mind was a part of the whole..the moments arising one after the other that involve the body-mind and other body-minds and the environment and all the causes and conditions present during those moments were just part of an event that happened...rather than it happening "to" a body-mind.
Have to stop for now..will continue later...
--No. I can see how -- in the old way of viewing things as if there were a separate self -- it would seem like I made the choice to ask that the kids come back to my house (which I did, and which was a better outcome for me). But I understand that what I did -- ask that the kids come back to my house last night -- just arose spontaneously. The thought occurred to do this...other thoughts about the consequences of make the request arose...and then I made the request. I can see the old point of view, i.e., that "I" weighed the factors of the situation and came to a conclusion about what to do and did it. But it's so much clearer now that there's no "I" and there's no control. Things just spontaneously happen due to unknown forces or effects. And it's so much more interesting that way.
Sure, we can still communicate and say 'person' - But has there ever been a separate person feeling anything ever? Again, is there any choice or control?
--Nope. The kid just thought there was a "me" to whom things were being done, like being left alone. And that's what caused the pain and anxiety -- the story that separate people with control over what they did chose to do something "to" me, another separate person.
Has there ever been a 'person' who could realise something or be changed by it (other than in thoughts)?
--No...the stream of thoughts can change, the beliefs can change, the behaviors can change...or, it would probably be more accurate to say that they constantly change...they are never exactly the same...but no one is in control of the change and there's no solid, permanent entity to be changed by anything
Perhaps deeper:
If 'you' have no choice or control, do others? (You may examine 'others' deeper at a later date).
--No they do not. If there's no "me" to have choice or control, there's no "you' to have choice or control either. This is a fallacy...
About the previous memory of your life - Did it happen to 'you'?
--It happened to a body-mind/organism...but not even "to" it...the body-mind was a part of the whole..the moments arising one after the other that involve the body-mind and other body-minds and the environment and all the causes and conditions present during those moments were just part of an event that happened...rather than it happening "to" a body-mind.
Have to stop for now..will continue later...
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