Lets try this again..

[ttrp]

Does there need to be a YOU in order for knowing to happen?


hmm... no. whether or not there is an "I", I will still know it is happening ...what si that awareness? that awareness is what feels like the "real" me. if I could just stop filtering everythign into language things would get so clear


but no an entity is not necessary for it to show up. if there is no "I" as you say.. then this is just happening anyway.

[Jack'n'theBox]

what si that awareness? that awareness is what feels like the "real" me.

Instead of looking 'outward' at sense arising as objects -- allow attention to rest in that 'space' in which these arisings appear. This aware space -- is it contained in 'the body'? -- does it have dimensions (can you find its edges)? Does it have any 'personal' characteristics -- does it have an age, a gender, a job, likes and dislikes?

[ttrp]

who is allowing attention?

this aware space is not in body.. it just "is" no dimensions no character.. its just there...its impossible to define but its there..

[Jack'n'theBox]

Right. So just to recap.

The pronoun "I" appears in thought -- but we haven't been able to find any actual "thing" to which it refers.

The open, unbounded awareness in which thoughts about "I" appear itself has none of the characteristics that thought attributes to "I".

So where does that leave us? What/where is this entity that the pronoun "I" stands in for -- can you find it?

[ttrp]

I seems to stand for the observer that expereicnes thought and sensation// and seems to be the one who "makes choices" or "has opinions" . The "thing" that when someone asks "what do YOU think of this" or "you'e this type of person" that responds to that.

But When I look for "that' it doesn't exist. and if it doesn't exist.. where does my tastes/ opinions/personality/life come from?


I noticed something interesting. I like to play RPG games, and I always find them so beautiful. the art/the world experience. I get more out of that experience watching the scenery and actions unfold in an objective way. the "character" is never muddled by the sense of "I". it just goes with the flow and does. I can watch a mountain go by in my game and be in love with the colours and emotions that arise and fall.

in real life I do not see this though I wish I could and I used to as a kid. HOWEVER an interesting noticing was with my camera and binoculars, seeing through the objective lense of a camera I can sink into that simple observation/noticing of the world .things are slower, the mundane more beautiful , magic in every moment.

yet in the lense of sight , through eyes.. through the filter of "I" . life is muddled, boring. the senses do not connect, because they are put through "my" eperience rather than direct. Even the writing of these words are filtered through the drama of "my" thought.

I can't find "it", yet there is the idea im addicted to that it is there.. it doesn't want to believe you or anyone else. it does'nt want to believe the truth even if i can understand it. this is so frustrating! yet I feel like im at the edge of something. the converging of something, a true to desire to shed this nad go back to how things are supposed to be.


resistance clouds everything, and makes the simple so complex. Im sorry for struggling here.

[Jack'n'theBox]

[

Im sorry for struggling here.

No need to apologise – looks to me like the self-view is struggling because it is in its death throws – there is increasingly little it can hang on to.

I seems to stand for the observer that expereicnes thought and sensation// and seems to be the one who "makes choices" or "has opinions" . The "thing" that when someone asks "what do YOU think of this" or "you'e this type of person" that responds to that.

Really? Look again at this aware space around thought. We’ve already noticed that it doesn’t have any characteristics of a “person”. I would suggest that when asked “What do you think?” what automatically replies is a thought!!

But When I look for "that' it doesn't exist. and if it doesn't exist.. where does my tastes/ opinions/personality/life come from?

Right! Taste/opinions/personality shows up – but why are they “mine”? Can you find an actual person that they belong to? Or are they simply ascribed to a person by thought?


Let me put this to you:

There is no ‘me’ in any shape or form, in reality. There can be a thought-created ‘I’ in a story about ‘me’. But the thought-created ‘I’ doesn’t refer to anything at all. It’s just a thought.

What comes up?

[ttrp]

had to go on an unexpected holiday.

hmm yes thought is automatic when asked. its bizarre to notice how much of life is conditioned or imprinted becaues of thought or what thought says should be the case


no.. there is no person they belong too, and they are as fluid as a daydream. the idea of my personality is just a story one can deduce based on experiences but is not the actual person. yes they are simply ascribed to a person by thought, a description a simplification



what comes up to what you said is the original challenge. "if there is no me, then what is left?" "I" *must* refer to the center "aspect of my experience. the one that experiences, chooses thoughts, actions and beliefs . If that all doesn't exist, then what does, what am I supposed to be doing. workin in the mind is so habitual at this point, "my" experience seems to get confused because its not sure how to operate otherwise if it were to let it go

[Jack'n'theBox]

what comes up to what you said is the original challenge. "if there is no me, then what is left?" "I" *must* refer to the center "aspect of my experience. the one that experiences, chooses thoughts, actions and beliefs .

Ha ha well, to borrow from your logic above – if there is a “center” or a “one that experiences, chooses thoughts” etc. then you *must* be able to find it in experience. Well, can you?


What you have here is a thought story. It’s like saying “I know there’s no proof for God’s existence, but He *must* exist otherwise where did all this come from?”

God, self, whatever – it is just thought assuming an originary point for experience. But can this centre point be discovered or is it just an assumption in thought?

If that all doesn't exist, then what does, what am I supposed to be doing. workin in the mind is so habitual at this point, "my" experience seems to get confused because its not sure how to operate otherwise if it were to let it go

Can a sensation ever be “confused”? Can a feeling be confused? or is it just thought that is confused? Can thought think? Does thougth know stuff? Who does thought think its talking to anyway?

[ttrp]

no I can't find it.

it is absoultely an assumption, one that I have been trying to "solve" for ages to figure out and hope to resolve the anxieties created. but it has just been a goose chase


no sensation cannot be confused, nor feelings. a thought is confused when it has "I am confused" added to it. thoughts cannot think or know, just a description of someone who thinking or knowing.

"who does thought think its talking to anyway"
this is the biggest question of my life. I have long been wondering "who is listening to thoughts.. the originla voice.. that if thought is *speaking* then who is listening." but if there is no one actually listening.. why is it happening and why is thought interacting this way and not in a useful manner. How did story come to be and why?

thought think it is talking to "me" the one in control. Giving advice, analyzing, growing... but if there is no me this is all a waste. but if there is no me then why is thought doing this ?

[Jack'n'theBox]

Let me give you a tip. Want to know how the mind works? It goes "blah blah blah blah blah." Yep, it really is that simple. You can spend your time worrying about thought's "Why, why why why why" questions or can can look at those thoughts as just a kind of mental noise. Thought runs on its own program -- there's nobody thinking it.

Notice how the "my" thought personalises what is just a spontaneous flow and in so doing causes suffering. "Why is my mind full of doubt?" -- There is no mind, there are no doubts. There are just thoughts telling a story of doubt -- but they are speaking to no-one. This guy nails it:

"Your so-called 'personality traits' are no different to the benign patterns of nature: the bark of a tree, the spots of a leopard. The texture of stone, the colour of blossom. Only you claim certain patterns and make them your own, and so suffering and an intense self-consciousness follows. See the impersonal nature of that 'suffering': notice its subtle nuances, textures, temperatures and vibrations. Find yourself in awe at the ancient creativity that unfolds in you."

~ Ha Chi Ming

[ttrp]

okay.

there is an intense feeling of resistance. mostly over the fear of losing control, that if there is realization than all the feelings of "doing" and "advancing" will be lost in my life . there is a trick happening. it wants to be "in control' and constantly be thinking/planning/etc to protect the.. nothing? it so wants to exist that it freaks out constantly to try and "prove" itself... but there is nothing to prove. its just a game

[Jack'n'theBox]

Well remember that everything that currently is happening (or that has ever happened or that will happen) is doing so without the substratum of an actual entity (me/myself) orchestrating or experiencing it. So you don't lose anything -- except a false belief.

Presumably you still continued to get Xmas presents after you "saw through" Santa? All you lost was the false belief about where presents came from.

Note how this sense of self lives in thoughts about the past or future -- in this sense it's a "projection" that takes you away from the Now.

Can you find this "self" here, in this moment in what is arising NOW? If not, how can it have a past or a future?

[Jack'n'theBox]

"You" still there?

[ttrp]

yes I'm sorry. had to go on an another unexpected holiday, longer than usua to an area with no internet service

I will have a response to you shortly . thanks for your patience

[ttrp]

there is no self in the present moment, and that has been increasing frustrating with the automation of "past"/"future" I. how much time I spend thinking of what will do, planning, and what I have done, reminiscing


I get more and more frustrated realizing that there is work that can be done in the present moment but it never does because there is too much energy spent on past/future!!