Guide required please

[Not2]

Hi Sarah

I have to say that this is also ‘seem’ as it certainly seems like there is a me stopping the negative thought but when looked at no source or doer can be found. It’s very convincing because the negative thought is stopped and does not continue nor comes back up.

Are you catching it at the point of when the decision is being made? Keep looking!

If I look at it again, what is experienced is there is a thought that arises to stop the negative thought and then the negative thought stops. There is no me that I can find that stops the negative thought.

If I try to be happy I can change my mood slightly but not a drastic switch of genuine emotion. But in terms of thoughts controlling the body, I can have the intention (thought) to close my hand and it will happen.

Tap with two or three fingers on the leg. Tap, tap, tap. Then, hold the fingers poised ready to tap. Just waiting in the air for a command to tap.
Looking at the fingers in the air, it’s not quite known when they will tap. In fact, the thought “tap now” can quite happily show up and yet the fingers remain in the air.
See if you can notice the moment when the command is issued and from whence it comes SUCH THAT the fingers simply have to obey. Notice if other commands to tap can be issued which have no affect on the fingers, leaving them remaining in the air.
Is it true that in direct experience there is no command that can be issued to make the fingers tap?
What causes the finger to tap? Anything? See what can be discovered in experience rather than thought.

This is interesting. There is no time when the command is issued that the fingers tap. On occasion there are times when the two coincide but they are slightly off – i.e. one slightly before/after the other. Conclusion is that there is no doer here. The tapping just happens.

What do you mean by writing? Are you referring to the words above or to the thoughts in my head telling me that my mind created the occurrence in my life? If the former then yes it is just thought writing a story… If the later then no, it can’t be because the thoughts happen before the physical manifestation/occurrence happens. I.e. I keep thinking that I want something and then after the thoughts it appears in my life. Maybe I’ve misunderstood you here?

Im referring to what thoughts say – and yes you saw that! Do thoughts tell lots of stories about whatever is happening? How much of thought is future based? How much roughly as a percentage is past based?

I wouldn’t say that they tell lots of stories about what is happening but a fair amount. It’s difficult to put a percentage to future and past thoughts. I would say roughly 50% current actions/decisions/thing that I’m doing/working on etc., 30% past and 20% future?

I’ve looked. I can’t find any me.

How does that feel?

Doesn’t really stir any emotion. I think it is because I’ve been “believing” this for a while so finding out is not really a surprise. I guess I’m still hung up on the definition of “me”. I.e. there is still a sense of me – i.e. that I exist and am present but I can see that that existence or presence is not controlling thoughts or the body. It’s just observing. To complicate, and going back to the definition issue, why can’t the me be the brain? I.e. what is the definition of the word “me” here?

If I really look at it, it is as though for automated decisions/actions, my attention is not on the decision/action taking place and for the decisions/actions made by ‘me’, my attention is on the decision/action. If this is true then who is the me who’s attention is either on the decision/action or not?

So attention is the key here – yes? When attention is on something there is a ‘you’ that you cant see/find controlling or creating etc. – yes? Do you control attention? How long for? If there was control – wouldn’t it be total?

Agreed. Once again, it seems like I control attention but from direct experience I cannot find the controller/doer.

I want to add something and ask a question if I may

Im going to answer with a question or two! :)
Do you exist? – yes or no – no thinking about it – just answer.
Havent you answered yourself with one sentence – ‘I cant help it’.
Are there thoughts ‘wanting’ here? Are thoughts wanting to understand?
What is actually experienced here – any or all of the above? NOT what is thought about – what is experienced? E.g. do you experience your brain or thoughts?
Lastly – what notices looking? What notices feelings? What notices thoughts, sensations, being aware etc? Is there something that notices everything?

Yes, I exist. Not sure which question you are referring to where you are asking have I not already answered it? There are thoughts about wanting – I wouldn’t say that thoughts can want anything themselves. I don’t experience the brain but I’ve read that it exists, about its role etc. and that is why I keep going back to it. I mean this whole thing makes sense from a direct experience point of view but we have modern science that we can use to examine who we are can’t we? Why is this discredited? Why does it just have to be from direct experience. E.g. from direct experience, micro-organisms do not exist BUT with a microscope I can confirm that they do. Similarly, from direct experience, there is no doer but science tells us that it is the brain that commands thought and the body.

[Sarah7]

Hi Bryan

If I look at it again, what is experienced is there is a thought that arises to stop the negative thought and then the negative thought stops. There is no me that I can find that stops the negative thought.

Agreed. Once again, it seems like I control attention but from direct experience I cannot find the controller/doer.

OK - so with both of these keep looking especially where control feels at its strongest. I want you to be really sure - this is about you verifying everything! Never take mine or anyone else's word for anything.

This is interesting. There is no time when the command is issued that the fingers tap. On occasion there are times when the two coincide but they are slightly off – i.e. one slightly before/after the other. Conclusion is that there is no doer here. The tapping just happens.

OK – I want you to notice any apparent command doing over the next few days like above. Really concentrate on that point of control commands and how it relates to thought and the apparent reaction. See if you can relate it to the thinking and decision making aspect too. Have a real good play with it!

I wouldn’t say that they tell lots of stories about what is happening but a fair amount. It’s difficult to put a percentage to future and past thoughts. I would say roughly 50% current actions/decisions/thing that I’m doing/working on etc., 30% past and 20% future?

OK – so look – do a rough tally of how much you notice of thoughts going into the future – may be near future rather than years! How much is based on past and how much is really spent now!

I.e. there is still a sense of me – i.e. that I exist and am present but I can see that that existence or presence is not controlling thoughts or the body. It’s just observing.

Do you experience this now?

To complicate, and going back to the definition issue, why can’t the me be the brain? I.e. what is the definition of the word “me” here?

I mean this whole thing makes sense from a direct experience point of view but we have modern science that we can use to examine who we are can’t we? Why is this discredited?

Well that’s what we are looking at. OK. What we think we are and what is actually experienced. Do you see?
OK - So Im going to take you on a wide sweep to the right here (as they say here in Yorkshire!) We are going to look at sensory experience and we are going to start with seeing.

Describe the experience of seeing step-by-step. In seeing, what is being experienced? What is happening when "seeing" is happening? What is doing the seeing? What is being seen? What does "seeing" consists of? Go into detail. Describe the actual, direct experience of seeing.

Gaze at an object. Turn up that inner magnifying glass to observe what's happening in direct experience. Do you first perceive the object using some other sense, and then see it later? Can you find a dividing line between the object and the seeing of it? Or are the object and the seeing of it inseparable? Is there an entity called "you" experiencing the seeing? Can you find a dividing line between "you" and seeing? Is it an accurate description of direct experience? Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I" and seer and an object? Or is there only seeing? What do you see about the thought, "I'm seeing that object"?

Try it with various sights e.g. out of the window at a distant view. See if you can find a way to separate the object from the seeing and the seeing from the seer. Where does one start and the other end?

How many senses are there here - 1 or more? Relate this to sound and touch – what is actually experienced – the table or the sense of seeing?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Not2]

Hi Sarah

Think I need a bit more time on these. Will post when ready.

[Sarah7]

Yeh - sorry about that I gave you rather a lot!
S xxx

[Not2]

Hi Sarah

Apologies for the delay. Life has been crazy busy lately…

If I look at it again, what is experienced is there is a thought that arises to stop the negative thought and then the negative thought stops. There is no me that I can find that stops the negative thought.

Agreed. Once again, it seems like I control attention but from direct experience I cannot find the controller/doer.

OK - so with both of these keep looking especially where control feels at its strongest. I want you to be really sure - this is about you verifying everything! Never take mine or anyone else's word for anything.

I looked at this again and still cannot find a me/doer that creates the thought to stop the negative thought.

This is interesting. There is no time when the command is issued that the fingers tap. On occasion there are times when the two coincide but they are slightly off – i.e. one slightly before/after the other. Conclusion is that there is no doer here. The tapping just happens.

OK – I want you to notice any apparent command doing over the next few days like above. Really concentrate on that point of control commands and how it relates to thought and the apparent reaction. See if you can relate it to the thinking and decision making aspect too. Have a real good play with it!

Tried this in several situations. In terms of thinking, there is a command thought that provides the intention and in terms of the decision making aspect, there is a thought that comes in and announces the decision but if I look carefully I can see both of these thoughts are just commentary and are not actually commands with any real power.

I wouldn’t say that they tell lots of stories about what is happening but a fair amount. It’s difficult to put a percentage to future and past thoughts. I would say roughly 50% current actions/decisions/thing that I’m doing/working on etc., 30% past and 20% future?

OK – so look – do a rough tally of how much you notice of thoughts going into the future – may be near future rather than years! How much is based on past and how much is really spent now!

This is difficult to do as I have a very busy life and not much time for any of this but I have been trying to look at this one for a few days. What I noticed is that there are no thoughts about the actual moment as it is unfolding. It is rather just thoughts about actions to be taken or decisions for future actions occurring within the very near future (few seconds to several minutes/hours). The rest of thought is spent on the medium to long term future, the past and the rest are thoughts about things or concepts that are not of the past or of future events. I.e. ideas, concepts, etc.

I.e. there is still a sense of me – i.e. that I exist and am present but I can see that that existence or presence is not controlling thoughts or the body. It’s just observing.

Do you experience this now?

Not continuously. I have to make an effort to see it or "get into it". It's a shift in perspective in a sense. I felt this very clearly the other night when brushing my teeth - i.e. I was just awareness observing this act of brushing teeth without any effort on my behalf. Most of the time however, I am not in this state.

To complicate, and going back to the definition issue, why can’t the me be the brain? I.e. what is the definition of the word “me” here?

I mean this whole thing makes sense from a direct experience point of view but we have modern science that we can use to examine who we are can’t we? Why is this discredited?

Well that’s what we are looking at. OK. What we think we are and what is actually experienced. Do you see?

OK - So Im going to take you on a wide sweep to the right here (as they say here in Yorkshire!) We are going to look at sensory experience and we are going to start with seeing.

Describe the experience of seeing step-by-step. In seeing, what is being experienced? What is happening when "seeing" is happening? What is doing the seeing? What is being seen? What does "seeing" consists of? Go into detail. Describe the actual, direct experience of seeing.

Seeing is immediate and automatic. I.e. there is no delay to seeing something and there is no effort required. In terms of what is being experienced - objects are being experienced visually. If I look at what makes up the objects and where they are, they are right in from of me. I.e. there seems to be a distance between the objects and where I'm seeing from but from direct experience, the objects are just images that are right in front of me as if on a 2D plane. If I take one step further and try to find the seer that is in front of the object, I cannot find one and if I look again, there are just the objects appearing without a seer. I.e. I cannot find any separation between the object and a "me" or witness of the objects.

Gaze at an object. Turn up that inner magnifying glass to observe what's happening in direct experience. Do you first perceive the object using some other sense, and then see it later? Can you find a dividing line between the object and the seeing of it? Or are the object and the seeing of it inseparable? Is there an entity called "you" experiencing the seeing? Can you find a dividing line between "you" and seeing? Is it an accurate description of direct experience? Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I" and seer and an object? Or is there only seeing? What do you see about the thought, "I'm seeing that object"?

There is no other sense experienced except seeing when I gaze at an object. The only other "sense" that is at play here is a "knowing" of the object being seen. I.e. knowing that it exists. But that doesn't come before the seeing takes place. Can't find any dividing line.

Try it with various sights e.g. out of the window at a distant view. See if you can find a way to separate the object from the seeing and the seeing from the seer. Where does one start and the other end?

From a direct experience point of view they are all the same experiences and it is impossible to separate the 3. I can’t find any beginning or end of any of them.

How many senses are there here - 1 or more? Relate this to sound and touch – what is actually experienced – the table or the sense of seeing?

As mentioned above, besides seeing the only other “sense” would be knowing – knowing that the object being seen exists by the very seeing of it. What is actually experienced is the senses and not the actual objects. This is a tricky one because how else (in a theoretical world) would be you be able to experience an object other than via the senses?

Regards
Bryan

[Sarah7]

Hey Bryan
So nice to hear from you!

I looked at this again and still cannot find a me/doer that creates the thought to stop the negative thought.

OK – so are you clear here? Or do you want to look some more?

Tried this in several situations. In terms of thinking, there is a command thought that provides the intention and in terms of the decision making aspect, there is a thought that comes in and announces the decision but if I look carefully I can see both of these thoughts are just commentary and are not actually commands with any real power.

Fabulous noticing here! So now I want you to look and find a thought that does have power. Is there a thought that can actually ‘do’ something?

This is difficult to do as I have a very busy life and not much time for any of this but I have been trying to look at this one for a few days. What I noticed is that there are no thoughts about the actual moment as it is unfolding. It is rather just thoughts about actions to be taken or decisions for future actions occurring within the very near future (few seconds to several minutes/hours). The rest of thought is spent on the medium to long term future, the past and the rest are thoughts about things or concepts that are not of the past or of future events. I.e. ideas, concepts, etc.

Again – excellent noticing! Are there any times of the day when you can manage to be ‘here’ and fully present? What is thought doing during times like that?

Not continuously. I have to make an effort to see it or "get into it". It's a shift in perspective in a sense. I felt this very clearly the other night when brushing my teeth - i.e. I was just awareness observing this act of brushing teeth without any effort on my behalf. Most of the time however, I am not in this state.

OK – so is this a case of ‘you’ doing this? Perfect for using this as a test for the two things above – a thought that can actually do something/has power and looking at what thought is doing – where it is.

Seeing is immediate and automatic. I.e. there is no delay to seeing something and there is no effort required. In terms of what is being experienced - objects are being experienced visually. If I look at what makes up the objects and where they are, they are right in from of me. I.e. there seems to be a distance between the objects and where I'm seeing from but from direct experience, the objects are just images that are right in front of me as if on a 2D plane. If I take one step further and try to find the seer that is in front of the object, I cannot find one and if I look again, there are just the objects appearing without a seer. I.e. I cannot find any separation between the object and a "me" or witness of the objects.

Fantastic! Does seeing happen even when attention is elsewhere?

There is no other sense experienced except seeing when I gaze at an object. The only other "sense" that is at play here is a "knowing" of the object being seen. I.e. knowing that it exists. But that doesn't come before the seeing takes place. Can't find any dividing line.

If no dividing line – how is the object separate from seeing? Kind of like a tv screen – thoughts say foreground, background, objects etc. bit really theres just a screen. Do you see?

What is actually experienced is the senses and not the actual objects. This is a tricky one because how else (in a theoretical world) would be you be able to experience an object other than via the senses?

Fabulous! Keep playing with this a bit longer! Try it with your hand! Direct experience!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Not2]

Hi Sarah

Just letting you know that I'm still here. Just need more time.

Regards
Bryan

[Sarah7]

OK Bryan
Great!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Not2]

Hi Sarah

I looked at this again and still cannot find a me/doer that creates the thought to stop the negative thought.

OK – so are you clear here? Or do you want to look some more?

Been looking again and it's clear - can't find a doer here.

Tried this in several situations. In terms of thinking, there is a command thought that provides the intention and in terms of the decision making aspect, there is a thought that comes in and announces the decision but if I look carefully I can see both of these thoughts are just commentary and are not actually commands with any real power.

Fabulous noticing here! So now I want you to look and find a thought that does have power. Is there a thought that can actually ‘do’ something?

It seems like there are thoughts that have power but your tapping experiment cleared this one for me.

This is difficult to do as I have a very busy life and not much time for any of this but I have been trying to look at this one for a few days. What I noticed is that there are no thoughts about the actual moment as it is unfolding. It is rather just thoughts about actions to be taken or decisions for future actions occurring within the very near future (few seconds to several minutes/hours). The rest of thought is spent on the medium to long term future, the past and the rest are thoughts about things or concepts that are not of the past or of future events. I.e. ideas, concepts, etc.

Again – excellent noticing! Are there any times of the day when you can manage to be ‘here’ and fully present? What is thought doing during times like that?

Times like this only seem to happen when I make an effort for them to happen. I.e. when I remember to be present. There aren't any thoughts when this happens, just noticing/watching.

Not continuously. I have to make an effort to see it or "get into it". It's a shift in perspective in a sense. I felt this very clearly the other night when brushing my teeth - i.e. I was just awareness observing this act of brushing teeth without any effort on my behalf. Most of the time however, I am not in this state.

OK – so is this a case of ‘you’ doing this? Perfect for using this as a test for the two things above – a thought that can actually do something/has power and looking at what thought is doing – where it is.

It seems like it's another case of me doing it but if I analyse it closely it's the same as the tapping exercise where it seems like the thoughts are controlling but they are not. It just happens.

Seeing is immediate and automatic. I.e. there is no delay to seeing something and there is no effort required. In terms of what is being experienced - objects are being experienced visually. If I look at what makes up the objects and where they are, they are right in from of me. I.e. there seems to be a distance between the objects and where I'm seeing from but from direct experience, the objects are just images that are right in front of me as if on a 2D plane. If I take one step further and try to find the seer that is in front of the object, I cannot find one and if I look again, there are just the objects appearing without a seer. I.e. I cannot find any separation between the object and a "me" or witness of the objects.

Fantastic! Does seeing happen even when attention is elsewhere?

Yes, seeing does happen when thoughts are elsewhere.

There is no other sense experienced except seeing when I gaze at an object. The only other "sense" that is at play here is a "knowing" of the object being seen. I.e. knowing that it exists. But that doesn't come before the seeing takes place. Can't find any dividing line.

If no dividing line – how is the object separate from seeing? Kind of like a tv screen – thoughts say foreground, background, objects etc. bit really theres just a screen. Do you see?

Yes, I can see this and can't prove from direct experience that the object is separate from the seeing of it.

What is actually experienced is the senses and not the actual objects. This is a tricky one because how else (in a theoretical world) would be you be able to experience an object other than via the senses?

Fabulous! Keep playing with this a bit longer! Try it with your hand! Direct experience!

It's the same experience each time I try, no matter what the object and where it is.

Regards
Bryan

[Sarah7]

Hi Bryan!

Times like this only seem to happen when I make an effort for them to happen. I.e. when I remember to be present. There aren't any thoughts when this happens, just noticing/watching.

If you aren’t present – where are you? Look at the story here - ‘this cant be it!’! :)
Does thought just happen even when attention isn’t on it?
Does seeing happen even when attention isn’t on it?
Does being present even when attention isn’t on it? Do you see?

It seems like it's another case of me doing it but if I analyse it closely it's the same as the tapping exercise where it seems like the thoughts are controlling but they are not. It just happens.

Lovely!

OK – so onto hearing!
Notice the sounds you’re hearing, like the chirping of the birds. Notice the habitual thought, "Those are birds." Notice the habitual thought, "I hear that." Now just pay attention to how hearing happens. Take your time with it. Can you find a dividing line between the sound and the hearing of the sound? Are you doing the hearing? Or is it truer to say that hearing is just happening? Then look to see whether there's a dividing line between the hearing of it and a separate entity, a "you," doing the hearing. In other words, what does it mean when you say, "I'm hearing that sound"? Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I" and hearing and a sound? Or is there just one experience of hearing, with no one as a hearer. Look closely. Try it with various sounds. See if you can find a way to separate the sound from the hearing and the hearing from the hearer. Where does one start and the other end? So what do you see about the thought, "I'm hearing that sound"? Is it an accurate description of direct experience?
What is a noise? Is that a label also? Is the sound there? Can you really know? Can you catch the labelling – ‘I’ hear that?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Not2]

Hi Sarah

Please can you explain what you meant by this:"Look at the story here - ‘this cant be it!’!"

Not sure I fully understand what you are saying/asking here.

Thanks
Bryan

[Sarah7]

Hi Bryan
Sorry! Ill try and explain better. Please let me know if it still is unclear!

Times like this only seem to happen when I make an effort for them to happen. I.e. when I remember to be present.

If you aren’t present – where are you? Look at the story here - ‘this cant be it!’

Are these just thoughts about not being present? Is there a thought saying ‘this cant be it?’.
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Not2]

Thanks for clearing that up.

Times like this only seem to happen when I make an effort for them to happen. I.e. when I remember to be present. There aren't any thoughts when this happens, just noticing/watching.

If you aren’t present – where are you? Look at the story here - ‘this cant be it!’! :)

That's true, I must be present always because I cannot say that I don't exist. I think that my choice of words was incorrect here. Instead of saying I have to remember to be present what I meant is that I have to make an effort to change my perspective to that of awareness or the witness. And I'm sure you are going to tell me that it's the same, i.e. how can I not be that awareness or in that state, I guess for me it's an attention thing. I.e. whenever my attention is on something or doing something, I don't feel like I'm in that state that I described to you the night I was witnessing teeth-brushing..

Does thought just happen even when attention isn’t on it?
Does seeing happen even when attention isn’t on it?
Does being present even when attention isn’t on it? Do you see?

Yes to all three here. I can see this now.

OK – so onto hearing!
Notice the sounds you’re hearing, like the chirping of the birds. Notice the habitual thought, "Those are birds." Notice the habitual thought, "I hear that." Now just pay attention to how hearing happens. Take your time with it. Can you find a dividing line between the sound and the hearing of the sound? Are you doing the hearing? Or is it truer to say that hearing is just happening?

Hearing is immediate and is right here and not out there. There is an illusion that sounds are happening far or near but from direct experience they are happening right here. Can't find any dividing line or anything that is doing the actual hearing - hearing is just happening.

...what does it mean when you say, "I'm hearing that sound"? Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I" and hearing and a sound? Or is there just one experience of hearing, with no one as a hearer. Look closely. Try it with various sounds. See if you can find a way to separate the sound from the hearing and the hearing from the hearer. Where does one start and the other end?

Tried this with different sounds and noises and in direct experience I cannot find 3 entities and cannot find a way to separate the sound from the hearing and the hearing from the hearer. Can't find where they begin and end. It's the same as with seeing.

So what do you see about the thought, "I'm hearing that sound"? Is it an accurate description of direct experience?

Definitely not an true description of the direct experience - just mind commentary.

What is a noise? Is that a label also? Is the sound there? Can you really know? Can you catch the labelling – ‘I’ hear that?

If you are referring to the concept of a noise or I hear a noise then that is just a label and not the actual noise/sound.

Regards
Bryan

[Sarah7]

Good morning Bryan!

That's true, I must be present always because I cannot say that I don't exist. I think that my choice of words was incorrect here. Instead of saying I have to remember to be present what I meant is that I have to make an effort to change my perspective to that of awareness or the witness. And I'm sure you are going to tell me that it's the same, i.e. how can I not be that awareness or in that state, I guess for me it's an attention thing. I.e. whenever my attention is on something or doing something, I don't feel like I'm in that state that I described to you the night I was witnessing teeth-brushing..

Expectation! Attention is always on something! Test this! But thoughts are saying what…..? That attention should be here and not there????? Which wave doesn’t belong in the ocean Bryan?

What state is EVER permanent?

So then Bryan onto touch!

Touch the table with your eyes shut (or open). Pretend like it’s the first time you have ever touched a table. Go straight to the raw sensation/perception. What is your direct experience of this ‘table’? List your direct experience. Is it senses again? Is it thoughts again? Look very closely. Which comes first the senses or the thoughts?
Does the sensation of touching come with a shape, density, weight, size, colour, age or function? Does this sensation come with a ‘not me’ label or ‘other’ label? Is it one sensation/perception or two?
Look at how thoughts try and take over, try and explain, try and prove. Notice your memories or references with which you compare the experience.
Sit with these sensations. Look at them. Look at the labelling e.g. table, hand. Look at the thoughts or story that attach at the end of this list if any. What is your direct experience of these words? Do they exist outside of thought? Are they sensations again? Are they just thoughts again? Look very closely. Which comes first the sensation or the thoughts? Don’t pay attention to the thoughts just look at what they do, when they come in.

Sit on a chair with your eyes closed. Feel the Direct Experience of sitting there. Notice thoughts thinking, labelling and explaining. Notice memory too. Notice sensations experiencing. Notice the sensation of bottom on chair – what is that – a thought? Notice the ‘me’ ‘mine labels e.g. this is my bottom – but look closely at that sensation labelling – is it yours, or just coming and going along with thoughts, ever changing. Is it the thought that wants to own? How many sensations do you notice? 2? One bottom sensation, and one chair sensation? How is that possible? Where does one sensation end and another begin? Locate that line. Can you feel that line? Or is that thought? Can you sense that line – or is that thought explaining the sensation?

Do we experience sensations or do we experience sensing? For us to experience a sensation it would have to be independently walking around?

Eyes closed. Turn your attention to your skin. Do you have Direct Experience of it being outside?

Do you experience a sensation inside another sensation? Do you experience a perception inside another perception? A sensation inside a perception, a perception inside a sensation? Do you experience a body in the world and a mind in the body? How can a body be in the world and a mind in a body? Do you experience a thought inside a perception or a sensation? How can you experience a thought inside a body or inside the world? Experience has no inside or outside – it is just experience seamlessly experiencing.
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Not2]

Hi Sarah

Apologies for the dry spell!

Good morning Bryan!

That's true, I must be present always because I cannot say that I don't exist. I think that my choice of words was incorrect here. Instead of saying I have to remember to be present what I meant is that I have to make an effort to change my perspective to that of awareness or the witness. And I'm sure you are going to tell me that it's the same, i.e. how can I not be that awareness or in that state, I guess for me it's an attention thing. I.e. whenever my attention is on something or doing something, I don't feel like I'm in that state that I described to you the night I was witnessing teeth-brushing..

Expectation! Attention is always on something! Test this! But thoughts are saying what…..? That attention should be here and not there????? Which wave doesn’t belong in the ocean Bryan?

I see, so what you're saying is that we are always that, or that we are always present, or that we are always the witness and don't need to make an effort to do so.

What state is EVER permanent?

None. Except presence I guess.

Touch the table with your eyes shut (or open). Pretend like it’s the first time you have ever touched a table. Go straight to the raw sensation/perception. What is your direct experience of this ‘table’? List your direct experience.

Cold, hard, smooth, flat, horizontal.

Is it senses again? Is it thoughts again? Look very closely. Which comes first the senses or the thoughts?
Does the sensation of touching come with a shape, density, weight, size, colour, age or function? Does this sensation come with a ‘not me’ label or ‘other’ label? Is it one sensation/perception or two?
Look at how thoughts try and take over, try and explain, try and prove. Notice your memories or references with which you compare the experience.

Yes, same as seeing and hearing - just sensations. The sensation happens first and then the labeling thoughts. The sensation doesn't come with a shape, density, weight, size, colour, age or function. This is interesting because I can see now that these are just commentary from the mind. Similarly for the ‘not me’ label or ‘other’ label - comes from the mind.

Sit with these sensations. Look at them. Look at the labelling e.g. table, hand. Look at the thoughts or story that attach at the end of this list if any. What is your direct experience of these words? Do they exist outside of thought? Are they sensations again? Are they just thoughts again? Look very closely. Which comes first the sensation or the thoughts? Don’t pay attention to the thoughts just look at what they do, when they come in.

It's very clear that the thoughts are secondary and that they in turn trigger other thoughts or even stories of the past (something related to the object I'm touching).

Sit on a chair with your eyes closed. Feel the Direct Experience of sitting there. Notice thoughts thinking, labelling and explaining. Notice memory too. Notice sensations experiencing. Notice the sensation of bottom on chair – what is that – a thought? Notice the ‘me’ ‘mine labels e.g. this is my bottom – but look closely at that sensation labelling – is it yours, or just coming and going along with thoughts, ever changing. Is it the thought that wants to own? How many sensations do you notice? 2? One bottom sensation, and one chair sensation? How is that possible? Where does one sensation end and another begin? Locate that line. Can you feel that line? Or is that thought? Can you sense that line – or is that thought explaining the sensation?

It does feel like 2 sensations but I can tell where one begins and the other ends. Sensing the line that separates them is a thought (subtle but a thought).

Do we experience sensations or do we experience sensing? For us to experience a sensation it would have to be independently walking around?

Sensing

Eyes closed. Turn your attention to your skin. Do you have Direct Experience of it being outside?

There is a slight feeling that it is outside but I would say that that too is just a thought from knowledge that the skin is outside the body.

Regards
Bryan