Looking for guide Stephanie Padma

[Arrietty Bee]

Hi Padma,
Apologies for being a bit out of sync with you, having access to Internet is intermittent until Sunday.
1a. You ask " What is different about those thoughts about self"?
They are thoughts which get labeled as self that is all.
e.g. 1. They are proliferating thoughts. 2. Thoughts repeating previous thoughts labeled as memories. 3. Habitual thoughts. These three tendencies get labeled as 'self, I, me'.
This is how the story is played out in thought, a 'me' is always 'centre stage' - a clue to the 'me,"I" being a construct, another thought. On looking the "I" " me" evaporates and so do the thoughts.
1b. Are they special kind of thoughts?
These thoughts fabricate or puff up the idea of a self. The habitual view of an I is compelling even though views are also thoughts. On looking the self isn't there, not having the thoughts or doing them. The me isn't in the thought as a thing either. Me self I are labels which glue together the thoughts - memories, stories, wishes, etc of a fabricated self.
1c. What is a belief?
In this instance (of a thought constructing a story of a self that may be believed in) a belief is taking the the thought story as real, the story of self as real, and happening in real time.
All are thoughts triggered or not by events, which set the whole playing out in motion of illusion of self thereby reinforcing, if unexamined, an "I"ness. The thoughts are often repetitive in content, refer to a 'past' memory, as in 'always does such and such' kind of scenario, which is what I meant by describing it as habit.
2a. Thoughts do not know they are creating more thoughts. b. Thoughts don't know anything. c. They do not decide anything. They do not have any inherent existence.there is nothing behind them thinking.
If there is no 'trigger 'for a thought, they happen randomly. If there is a trigger then there can be a reaction but that is another thought about the trigger. There is no one in or out of a thought or story making it happen.
Many thanks AB x

[Arrietty Bee]

Hi Padma,
Apologies for being a bit out of sync with you, having access to Internet is intermittent until Sunday.
1a. You ask " What is different about those thoughts about self"?
They are thoughts which get labeled as self that is all.
e.g. 1. They are proliferating thoughts. 2. Thoughts repeating previous thoughts labeled as memories. 3. Habitual thoughts. These three tendencies get labeled as 'self, I, me'.
This is how the story is played out in thought, a 'me' is always 'centre stage' - a clue to the 'me,"I" being a construct, another thought. On looking the "I" " me" evaporates and so do the thoughts.
1b. Are they special kind of thoughts?
These thoughts fabricate or puff up the idea of a self. The habitual view of an I is compelling even though views are also thoughts. On looking the self isn't there, not having the thoughts or doing them. The me isn't in the thought as a thing either. Me self I are labels which glue together the thoughts - memories, stories, wishes, etc of a fabricated self.
1c. What is a belief?
In this instance (of a thought constructing a story of a self that may be believed in) a belief is taking the the thought story as real, the story of self as real, and happening in real time.
All are thoughts triggered or not by events, which set the whole playing out in motion of illusion of self thereby reinforcing, if unexamined, an "I"ness. The thoughts are often repetitive in content, refer to a 'past' memory, as in 'always does such and such' kind of scenario, which is what I meant by describing it as habit.
2a. Thoughts do not know they are creating more thoughts. b. Thoughts don't know anything. c. They do not decide anything. They do not have any inherent existence.there is nothing behind them thinking.
If there is no 'trigger 'for a thought, they happen randomly. If there is a trigger then there can be a reaction but that is another thought about the trigger. There is no one in or out of a thought or story making it happen.
Many thanks AB x

[stephanie padma]

Hi AB,

Apologies for being a bit out of sync with you, having access to Internet is intermittent until Sunday.

No worries at all, we try our best!

The me isn't in the thought as a thing either . Me self I are labels which glue together the thoughts - memories, stories, wishes, etc of a fabricated self.

So the self is a construct made of thoughts, memories about the past, preferences… good to establish that!
So, Is there a thinker of thoughts right now in experience? Can you ever choose to think a thought, control them?
Try this little exercise:
Think of a number between 1 and 10
See how the number appears: was there a thinker or a controller or a chooser to decide which number to go with?
Do this a few times. Report what you discover!
Then do it a few times again, using the fingers to indicate the numbers: what controlled the movement of the fingers? What happened there?

Thoughts do not know they are creating more thoughts. b. Thoughts don't know anything. c. They do not decide anything. They do not have any inherent existence.there is nothing behind them thinking.

:-)

If there is no 'trigger 'for a thought, they happen randomly. If there is a trigger then there can be a reaction but that is another thought about the trigger

Yes a lot of thoughts seem to be very random, but don’t they arise out of conditions like everything else? A thought, a sound, an action, random conditions give rise to thoughts, right?

Night night, Padma x

[Arrietty Bee]

Hi Padma,

Thanks for your reply.

I've found this difficult and I feel a bit stuck!

1. is there a thinker of thoughts right now?......

There is thinking going on. Thoughts now are.. thoughts about this question! Thinking is active but there isn't a thinker when looking. There is awareness of thinking. Is that a thought?

2. I'm not sure whether there is ever a choice to think a thought or to control them. Where does reflection about an issue or theme fit in here?
A topic appears .. To reflect upon or to study, there is a direction here but no director. This needs further looking ...
There is a direction towards a process of thoughts. E.g scenario today,... an object of mine wasn't where I'd left it. Outcome... Later I found it with something else in another building, I'd no recollection of taking it there.
I've just been reflecting on this,so thoughts about the whole episode were, the story of what had happened/ what hadn't happened outside of speculation, remembering people I'd asked whether they'd seen my lost object etc. I purposely thought about it all to see if I could identify what had gone on and whether there was an 'I' which could direct thoughts.

Looking revealed... There was direction to the thoughts about all the above occurring, there was absorption in the story of it all. Awareness of the thoughts and story and outcome. But the "I" was nowhere to be found.

3. Try this.. think of a number between 1&10....

'6' silently 'sounded'. A sensation inside left cheek/mouth. This is happening as I read the. Instruction. No time for thinker controller observer to be seen or a chooser to choose. There is reading and response.
Repeated .. The numbers changed but still immediately an image of number 3 instantly and so on with different numbers. There wasn't a chooser. It all seems instant reaction no decision or decision maker.

Using the fingers.... Repeat

3 selected. The numbers were named the fingers shot out the required count 1,2,3, silently worded.
I found this hard to examine this exercise. It apparently happened instantly both the number selected in (a) and counting the number with fingers (b). There were soundless words of the numbers evident with the fingers. Nothing controlled. An assumption thought that there must be! But then I noticed, when trying to fathom this conundrum that my hand was slightly rubbing the side of my nose - and no- one had decided to do that! Aha! Actions happen - there is a response but no agent doing the responding! It looks like a reflex?

4a yes random conditions produce random thoughts. And there isn't always focus/awareness noticing. Awareness though is not a self. Awareness cannot be found either yet there is a feeling tone which may be a sedation or a thought about awareness.

I felt frustrated this time by slipping into analysing rather than looking directly.

Love Arrietty Bee

[stephanie padma]

Hi Ab,
Hope you had a good week end. Sorry this is late today, I was hoping to send this back earlier, but I ran a 10K thingy this morning and needed to recover! I also wanted to take some time looking into this because I may not be able to write Monday and Tuesday as I will be working late.
So, there are a lot of questions here to keep you busy over the next couple of days, but don’t rush it, take it steady, maybe just focus on the first section tomorrow and write to me, I may still be able to read it and digest.

Awareness though is not a self. Awareness cannot be found either yet there is a feeling tone which may be a sedation or a thought about awareness.
I felt frustrated this time by slipping into analysing rather than looking directly.

Yes, we can be very tempted to think that thought knows stuff. It is very common to shift into thoughts about what is happening and mistake them for Direct Experience. But what is actually present in sensations?
Is it possible to simply be still, noticing what is arising in the different sense fields without applying labels, understanding, describing?
Do thoughts perceive anything? Or are they also an experience like seeing, hearing, smelling are?
Give me some concrete examples to illustrate your answers please.

There is awareness of thinking. Is that a thought?

Good question! Look again! Is there Awareness that is detached from the content of awareness? Or is there just observing and labelling, with labels assumed to be something more then they are?
Take your time and give me some specific examples.

There was direction to the thoughts about all the above occurring, there was absorption in the story of it all.

So, a direction suggest some kind of ordering of thoughts in a sequence in time, with a movement from a to b. In your experience here and now, somatically, is there a connection between thoughts or is that just an assumption?
If it was a coherent connected process going in a direction, you would be able to know what your next thought would be, wouldn’t you? Do you know what your next thought is going to be?
Give me an example here too.

By the way, what is a story? Can you give me an example: what is it made of? Is it real?

The numbers changed but still immediately an image of number 3 instantly and so on with different numbers. There wasn't a chooser. It all seems instant reaction no decision or decision maker.

Aha! Excellent! So, there is no chooser of numbers and no decision about it.

Aha! Actions happen - there is a response but no agent doing the responding!

So there was an assumption that there must be a chooser or controller regarding the number and the fingers. But then you see that there is just action happening! That’s great!
Any time you want to, you can do any of those exercises again to look again/verify what you saw, you know in your spare time!

Happy looking! Love, Padma xx

[Arrietty Bee]

Hi Padma,
thanks for replying so thoroughly. And wow that's a good run!
You have given me a lot to consider so I will give time to it tomorrow as I'm to tired now. It was a good weekend gathering though.
I'd been retreading what we've explored so far and was thinking about revisiting a few pointers
With love till next post!
Arrietty Bee xx

[Arrietty Bee]

Hi Padma, here are some observations!

1. But what is actually present in sensations?

Just sensations are present in sensations.
( e.g. Body sensations, tingling, movements, itches warmth etc.)
awareness/observer and sensations are one and the same in direct experience in all of the senses, sound sight taste/smell touch. This is most evident when meditating.

2. Is it possible to simply be still., noticing what is arising in the different sense fields without applying labels, understanding, describing?

Yes this is possible, especially during meditation


3. Do thoughts perceive anything? Or are they also an experience like seeing, hearing, smelling are?
Give me some concrete examples to illustrate your answers please.

Thoughts are not perceptions or senses.
They do not directly interface with objects perceived through the senses as the senses do. Thoughts are experienced as thoughts about something.
Example: In experience, trying to locate a thought directly I find a sensation in the head/brain, it is not as though the sensations are 'words' or 'images'! On looking it isn't possible to have a direct experience of a thought and know it as a thought directly.
Whereas sense of sound for example, there is direct experience of sound before labelling( of what kind of sound),
direct experience of sight before labelling (of what is being seen).
This doesn't work with thought. However thoughts could still be mistaken for perceiving since they take over from direct experience so quickly, even though they are not able to perceive.
e.g There can be a thought 'oh I wonder how Judith is getting on?' An image of my friend Judith and accompanying memories of her, our friendship, her troubles happiness etc come to mind but these are memories, imaginary images not a direct experience of her from present direct sense contact.

I've read through last paragraph- Hmmm.( Maybe sensation in the head/brain is a direct experience of thought, as a sensation, before thought has content?)

4. Is there Awareness that is detached from the content of awareness? Or is there just observing and labelling, with labels assumed to be something more then they are?
Take your time and give me some specific examples.

I look up from the screen. Images are present, sounds are present, body sensations etc. look back at the screen, typing happens, awareness is directly experiencing. It is not separate or detached.
In this example, labelling of what the sensations were didn't happen, just awareness seeing, feeling, listening,

Hope your work goes well I will do the rest of your Q, soon
Lots of love, I really appreciate your helping me x Arrietty

[Arrietty Bee]

Hi Padma, here is the next instalment of replies to your questions, still a few more to look at. X

1: So, a direction suggest some kind of ordering of thoughts in a sequence in time, with a movement from a to b.

There is cognition which is informed by knowledge learnt and remembered which appears in thought.
When writing now on this pad there is an order to the thoughts to enable expression. There is an order to activities, which just happen, from previous successful or unsuccessful habits presumably. There is no controller evident now in this. Typing, looking, thinking, is going on, stray thoughts arise such as 'don't forget to do such and such.'

2: In your experience here and now, somatically, is there a connection between thoughts or is that just an assumption?

I close my eyes and try to think about this. Immediately hit a 'block' . It isn't possible to deliberately think at all. This is a surprise! There's an assumption about what thought can do!
In direct looking all responses to your questions are found or answered, not by an I or a thought. Rather there are just answers arising. Awareness/observer/arisings!
Therefore no obvious connection between thoughts.
Answers appear more like in the midst of thinking happening but not necessarily related to the thoughts that are going on! This is complete surprise to find this!
(Maybe that is why the best ideas seem to come through from somewhere else not from self, this of course is a thought memory of an aspect of creativity and is analysing.) An exciting discovery though!


3: If it was a coherent connected process going in a direction, you would be able to know what your next thought would be, wouldn’t you? Do you know what your next thought is going to be?
Give me an example here too.

I can only see a present thought or remember a previous one, but even trying to track backwards so to speak is difficult. There is an anticipation of an action sometimes occurring as a thought. But that isn't the same as knowing what the next thought will be. (It's astonishing how these assumptions are taken as real!)

4: By the way, what is a story? Can you give me an example: what is it made of? Is it real?

A story is a labelling of the content /subject matter thrown up or apparent in thinking/thought.
It is made up of memories, fantasies, subjective thoughts.
E.g There is a story of a 'me'.
The story of a me assumes a reality, yet any telling of that life story or any event, changes in the telling and is dependent upon many factors or conditions. E.g mood (which are body sensations interpreted as mood in thoughts );the person being told (an assumption of what may be relevant in the telling, e.g the telling of doing LU after a question being asked by someone ); a daydream of memory of a past event, e.g childhood family trauma. The latter may be replayed over and over again. So a story is not real ever. It is not an event happening in the moment. It has subjective content about an I, or memory or desire for something in the past or future experience of this I.

[Arrietty Bee]

Hi, I just re read the list of questions and noticed that of the last two, one was an affirmation and the other was to redo the exercises if time to affirm the findings, will do at some point,
Thanks again there is rather a lot for you to read now hoping your work goes well
Love Arrietty Bee xx

[stephanie padma]

Hi Arrietty,

Yes, work is going well thanks. I just tend to see people until a bit late. Also I have been cycling to work, which takes more time and faffing.

......I can only see a present thought or remember a previous one, but even trying to track backwards so to speak is difficult. There is an anticipation of an action sometimes occurring as a thought. But that isn't the same as knowing what the next thought will be. (It's astonishing how these assumptions are taken as real!)

Brilliant! And excellent! You don’t know what your next thought is going to be and you can’t choose a number! So you have seen through an assumption! How does it feel to know that? Does it change anything?

.... So a story is not real ever. It is not an event happening in the moment. It has subjective content about an I, or memory or desire for something in the past or future experience of this I.

Oh great! Thanks for that! So it sounds like there are different stories of you, that’s interesting, isn’t it?
So, when you refer to ‘me’, ‘Arrietty’, what are you actually refereeing to?


I'm still looking at Mondays post and will say something about later/tomorrow.
Thank you, Padma xx

[Arrietty Bee]

Hi Padma,
Good to hear from you.

1: Brilliant! And excellent! You don’t know what your next thought is going to be and you can’t choose a number! So you have seen through an assumption! How does it feel to know that? Does it change anything?

How does it feel to see through an assumption and to know?
Phew, well this one was quite a shock, the assumption that thoughts could be made to think something seemed obvious previously. So to see that that wasn't happening threw up a possibility of many similar assumptions to be noticed. I mostly feel very excited and curious to uncover more!

This changes just about everything,; that thought cannot be relied upon, held on to!
It's like being unmasked, exposed as charlatan. Also enables a change of focus, in that there is more noticing of constructions around thought particularly, eg I tried to see.what happened reciting a poem or times tables, there is a consecutive aspect of memory which looks like thought, but perhaps thought has the function of being the vehicle for memory or imagination, this is analysing again! But I'm also curious about where intellect fits in.

A particular change that I noticed this morning,( so not direct experience right now), was at the end of meditation. On opening my eyes, there was just being/ awareness reflected back or everywhere but not separate somehow, before labelling/ analysing happened, this is hard to express in words.



1: So it sounds like there are different stories of you, that’s interesting, isn’t it?
So, when you refer to ‘me’, ‘Arrietty’, what are you actually refereeing to?

Referring to 'me' Arrietty' is referring to a conventional view of a self, a human being, a woman. But all that is there is a bundle of conditions and loosely connected ideas.
It is like referring to miscellaneous objects in a department store calling all the items and fittings of one section Housewares , or referring to paints,brushes, paper, chair and all the rest of my art equipment and calling them artists studio. i.e. it's a useful shorthand description needed to get about in the world. So referring to a me is a construction of ideas about a me, evident in the different versions of a me. There is awareness but not a me
Bit tired now so may not be making much sense!
Love Arrietty x

[stephanie padma]

Morning Arrietty!

On opening my eyes, there was just being/ awareness reflected back or everywhere but not separate somehow, before labelling/ analysing happened, this is hard to express in words

Lovely!!

Referring to 'me', ‘Arrietty' is referring to a conventional view of a self, a human being, a woman. But all that is there is a bundle of conditions and loosely connected ideas.

Yes indeed! Well put too! Do you know this intellectually or do you ‘see’ this?
What does it feel like to say that? is this a discovery too?

On looking it isn't possible to have a direct experience of a thought and know it as a thought directly.

Really? So you don’t know when there is a thought? Look again!
Maybe this would help: If hearing is the experience of sound and smelling the experience of smell, what is thinking/mind?
Could it be that Mind is a sense? Could it be that 'mind objects' are also sensed?

This changes just about everything,; that thought cannot be relied upon, held on to!
It's like being unmasked, exposed as charlatan. Also enables a change of focus, in that there is more noticing of constructions around thought particularly, eg I tried to see.what happened reciting a poem or times tables, there is a consecutive aspect of memory which looks like thought, but perhaps thought has the function of being the vehicle for memory or imagination, this is analysing again!

.... so can you just allow each thought to be there when it arises, and allow it to be gone when it has passed?
Try this exercise: throughout the day let yourself observe thought simply as objects that arise much like any other sensation or feeling?
What happens when you do this? What are you discovering/learning?
So now, after having looked in that way can you tell me what’s so special about memories? Could it be that memories are also simply another mind objects, simply arising and passing, in the form of words and images in the mind?

No need to complicate things too much, but please read the questions a bit more carefully before plunging in!!

Much love and sunshine, Padma xxx

[Arrietty Bee]

Hello Padma,

‘Arrietty' is referring to a conventional view of a self, a human being, a woman. But all that is there is a bundle of conditions and loosely connected ideas.

1. Yes indeed! Well put too! Do you know this intellectually or do you ‘see’ this?
What does it feel like to say that? is this a discovery too?

This is something that I have been aware of for a long time. It goes with recognising how the life 'story' of 'me' changes in the telling. So I see this and it isn't a new discovery. It feels familiar now accepted, although years ago this would first have been presented and understood intellectually

"On looking it isn't possible to have a direct experience of a thought and know it as a thought directly."

2: Really? So you don’t know when there is a thought? Look again!
Maybe this would help: If hearing is the experience of sound and smelling the experience of smell, what is thinking/mind?
Could it be that Mind is a sense? Could it be that 'mind objects' are also sensed?

Yes how this was put is an apparent confusion! What I meant was that thought isn't usually described as one of the senses. If mind is taken as a sense then yes there is a direct experience of thinking going on. When looking there is a thought. When asked 'what are you thinking'? Often I may not know! Which shows the constant flow of thoughts-and what does and doesn't get hooked into.
Mind from my understanding is a sense of course. And yes mind objects are included.

"This changes just about everything,; that thought cannot be relied upon, held on to!
It's like being unmasked, exposed as charlatan. Also enables a change of focus, in that there is more noticing of constructions around thought particularly, eg I tried to see.what happened reciting a poem or times tables, there is a consecutive aspect of memory which looks like thought, but perhaps thought has the function of being the vehicle for memory or imagination, this is analysing again!"

3 a:.... so can you just allow each thought to be there when it arises, and allow it to be gone when it has passed?

This is most apparent and experienced directly in meditation, so yes I do this a lot and can let that happen throughout the day.

3b: Try this exercise: throughout the day let yourself observe thought simply as objects that arise much like any other sensation or feeling?

Although this is not new to me I will specifically practice this throughout today, and let you know this evening

Thanks again Padma, strawberries weather hope you can be out in it xxx

[Arrietty Bee]

Good afternoon Padma,

Try this exercise: throughout the day let yourself observe thought simply as objects that arise much like any other sensation or feeling?
What happens when you do this? What are you discovering/learning?

OK this is what I did.... I'll describe one of the observations as written at the time.
Sitting in my studio, I'm trying to construct a figure for a painting by sketching preliminary ideas. This is quite hard without references.
I pause, look out of the window, I'm sitting quietly. There is seeing, hearing, thinking, (thoughts present are of a reflective nature). Nothing is still/static in any of the sensations experienced, all experienced/ observed is in constant movement.
All of the various sensations, everything, is coming and going a constant flux and flow.
Sometimes there is a turning towards/ an observing of any one of the sensations. What happens?
There is a shift rather like a camera lens focusing or tuning in to a station on the radio, as attention/interest gets caught. This feels like apprehending (an object, thought or sound) holding it still, but it is a shift of focus, there is in direct experience just flow in all the sensations, including the apprehending, body, thoughts, feelings, emotions, mind sense.
What is affirmed is that nothing is as it is assumed to be, when looking directly. Nothing is actually static. 'Things' arise or come into consciousness through the senses, they are observed ( or not in terms of interest), and the duration varies, then they pass away . So in conclusion, yes thoughts also arise, have a duration and pass away and are constantly changing.

Continuing throughput the day and stoping in a similar way revealed similar observations. When I returned to the task in hand, concentration was paramount, with some thoughts of what was occurring.




2: So now, after having looked in that way can you tell me what’s so special about memories? Could it be that memories are also simply another mind objects, simply arising and passing, in the form of words and images in the mind?

Memories are entirely an aspect of selfing. They are either affirming a self in a positive or negative way. They appear as based in history, the assumption is that they are real, true and factual. It is not until really looking and finding out what they are, ( thoughts) , that they can be once again allowed or not to be listened to, at least that is how I am with them.

So yes, memories while having particular content also arise have a duration and pass. They are mind objects in the same way as other thoughts are.

Now for a cup of tea!

Love Arrietty xx

[stephanie padma]

Hi Arrietty,

with recognising how the life 'story' of 'me' changes in the telling. So I see this and it isn't a new discovery. It feels familiar now accepted, although years ago this would first have been presented and understood intellectually

It’s brilliant you’ve known this for a while. And putting that ‘story’ aside ;-) and coming back to direct experience: what is behind the changing life story of me:
Is there a ’me’ at the centre of that changing story?
Is there an owner of that story?
(2 different questions!)

There is seeing, hearing, thinking. Nothing is still/static in any of the sensations experienced, all experienced/ observed is in constant movement {...} Sometimes there is a turning towards/ an observing of any one of the sensations. What happens? There is a shift rather like a camera lens focusing or tuning in to a station on the radio, as attention/interest gets caught…..

Some really nice looking today! Nice read! :-) I like that camera lens focusing analogy.
So thoughts just arise, just like the other sensations. There is a flow of sensations.

Is there a manager to this flow, is there a core, central thing in the middle of it that makes it happen or monitors it?
What do you find in experience?

Can attention actually get caught? Look again please: Is there Awareness that is detached from the content of awareness?

Night night! with love, Padma x