hoping that now is here - can someone guide me please?

[kgreenbank]

Perhaps you are trying to rush. Take it easy, relax. This is not a weekend retreat although that may calm you down.

Yes, I have relaxed, perfect, thank you <3

What expectations you are trying to put down, specifically?

Yet more freaking expectations! Still! and not even consistent!
- this will be a big bang - whoosh, liberated, job done
- this will be a smooth, linear process, no 2 steps forward one step back thank you very much
- moments of clarity will not be followed by doubts

What fear?

Not sure there is fear now, beyond wanting someone there (you!) when I step through the gate. I'll examine this more tomorrow

You want to see nothing? Close your eyes and pretend you have amnesia. What do you see?

Ridiculous scene of me in hospital attended by Gregory House MD
Nonsense word thought strings about amnesia
Impossible to see nothing
Point taken

Is there a separate self? As you say something is claiming ownership. What is this?
Is it seen in direct experience or is it a thought that comes and goes?
Is separate self simply a thought?

No there is no separate self. It is not found in direct experience. It is a thought that comes and goes. Separate self is simply a thought. It is an illusion. None the less, it remains

Thank you so much, I can't properly express how much I appreciate what you are doing. K x

[kvotski]

What remains Kate? A thought or separate self?

There will be bodies and minds after the gateless gate as there are now. Some of them would look like they are watching a movie trapped. So not to worry about if there will be support for you.

[kgreenbank]

I meant someone with me AS I step through the gate.
so this is another expectation then, that I can't do it alone
more tomorrow, will answer all your questions then - late here.
goodnight

[kvotski]

Oh yes. Good night.

I think you meant the illusion remains. Of course. Just because you know the trick the magician doesn't stop. The only important issue is that separate self is recognised as an illusion. A three dimensional holographic movie that appears so real.

[kvotski]

Oh, one more thing. There is no gate. Don't be on this side of the gate now looking back for what you crossed.

[kgreenbank]

Very nice, Kate. Let's give it some more time. Go for another walk in the park when you can.

Thanks. I will.
What has happened today is that I have realised that I have been spending the past few days looking for a mythical creature and then being frustrated that I couldn’t find it. Honestly, truly, can I find a separate self in any shape or form? No. Looking reveals a swirling mass of constantly changing thoughts and emotions and sensory information all going on via a body and a mind. No real, discrete, separate ‘Kate’. But looking for the “nothing” – ha, there’s a fine way to waste your time.

The exercise of trying to originate a thought yesterday was pretty powerful. No arguing with that. I could not generate a single thought, no matter how hard “I” tried. But I told you in my first post that I was guilty of sartori chasing. This has been my number one obstacle. I have wanted moksha, nirvana, from this. I’ve wanted a realisation of abiding emptiness, a direct experience of selflessness. I want what Nisargadatta speaks of. Instead I have simply seen the truth that “I” don’t exist. And even though it is seen through, well and truly, it’s such a small, insignificant non-event. No one could persuade me now that the self exists or ever did; even when it ‘feels’ like it does (like now), I know this is just mind labelling experience with the I thought.

Just because you know the trick the magician doesn't stop. The only important issue is that separate self is recognised as an illusion. A three dimensional holographic movie that appears so real.

Right now I feel, well, perplexed at the utter ordinariness of this realisation. I’m so very grateful to you for helping me with this, but truly, wow, certainly not a mystical revelation is it? It’s evening and I’m at home – experience of the past few days seems to show that chores, domestic stuff etc pulls me back into identification very strongly. It’s not fear. That’s all gone. Seriously, what on earth is there to be afraid of – literally nothing. But during the day, there is a feeling that something is shifting, an unfolding happening. There have been frequent and often prolonged moments of “wow, look at this, it’s amazing, life going on!” Perception shifts, boundaries thinning, and deep gratitude and affection and compassion for self and for everything else. A lot of love. A sense of this is IT!

But I want to be absolutely clear – there is always a felt sense of “me” there experiencing this – I know individuals for whom one moment there was a person walking across the room and the next there was just ‘walking across the room’ – game over. THAT has been what I have been seeking (and scared of). Now I know there is no I doing anything, but the felt sense of I, the ownership of what’s happening, is still present, even if seen through as illusion. Sometimes more solid than others, but still present. (God, the paradoxes here). I want to be completely honest and clear about this because this causes confusion and concern that I am deceiving myself or, worse, you. Do you think this needs more exploration?

Check particularly when the label is especially sticky. Close your eyes and try to find self. Where is it, what is it? Is it just a thought that it's sticky without shape, form, taste or colour?

Yes, that is it, exactly. It’s a sticky but shapeless, formless, tasteless, colourless thought. How very very unremarkable this is. I’m certainly not leaping about saying “oh my god I am FREE!” or (as I have read on others’ accounts) “There are tears / life is in freefall / life is impersonal and it’s such a relief”.
Will it get less sticky? What is going to happen next? This does feel like the beginning of something and not the end.

Do you need to remember you are a woman? Do you need to remember the self is an illusion?

No. Of course not. Both things are obvious

Oh, one more thing. There is no gate. Don't be on this side of the gate now looking back for what you crossed.

Something I read on another thread, and I’m paraphrasing: “Do you feel that you are still seeking, meaning that there is a lack? Or is it that you are curious to explore further that which is already happening?”
For me, it’s the latter. There is no lack. There is confusion and doubt and other non-joyful thoughts arising from time to time, but they are just thoughts, life happening in all its fullness. I might not enjoy them, but they don't arise from lack - quite the opposite. To quote Alan Watts - “The meaning of life is just to be alive. It is so plain and so obvious and so simple. And yet, everybody rushes around in a great panic as if it were necessary to achieve something beyond themselves.” Well there we are.

As for the gate: I didn’t cross it because I’m not there and neither is it. The joke was on me ;-)
Kate x

[kvotski]

I have wanted moksha, nirvana, from this. I’ve wanted a realisation of abiding emptiness, a direct experience of selflessness. I want what Nisargadatta speaks of. Instead I have simply seen the truth that “I” don’t exist. And even though it is seen through, well and truly, it’s such a small, insignificant non-event. No one could persuade me now that the self exists or ever did; even when it ‘feels’ like it does (like now), I know this is just mind labelling experience with the I thought.

Each one of us come with different baggage, so liberation has to be different. Are you a bidi maker living above the toilet in Bombay like Nisargadatta or are you a princess of Kapilbastu like the Buddha?

But I want to be absolutely clear – there is always a felt sense of “me” there experiencing this – I know individuals for whom one moment there was a person walking across the room and the next there was just ‘walking across the room’ – game over. THAT has been what I have been seeking (and scared of). Now I know there is no I doing anything, but the felt sense of I, the ownership of what’s happening, is still present, even if seen through as illusion. Sometimes more solid than others, but still present. (God, the paradoxes here). I want to be completely honest and clear about this because this causes confusion and concern that I am deceiving myself or, worse, you. Do you think this needs more exploration?

Is there a you experiencing this? or is it a thought? We have to be clear on that. Other's stories are other's stories.
What you consider to be small and insignificant could be monumental for some one who is in constant pain and anguish and finds that there is no one feeling them.

Yes, that is it, exactly. It’s a sticky but shapeless, formless, tasteless, colourless thought. How very very unremarkable this is. I’m certainly not leaping about saying “oh my god I am FREE!” or (as I have read on others’ accounts) “There are tears / life is in freefall / life is impersonal and it’s such a relief”.
Will it get less sticky? What is going to happen next? This does feel like the beginning of something and not the end.

Yes, It is the beginning of a life without separate self which may or may not give you many different experiences but there will be no one to feel them. Think hard about all of the stories you have heard, are they not experiences in the body and mind? Isn't that what is being sought by the body and mind? A release, a super spiritual (so called) fireworks felt by the body and mind. For the separate self is an illusion, how can it feel anything?

By the way, many of our guides help each other on a facebook page called after care. Nothing you feel is different from what many of us have talked about. You will find much help.


One final question, beyond any shadow of a doubt, do you find that there is no I, me or self?

[kgreenbank]

Morning Sunil

Normally when I write to you it is late at night at home, when the the self label is attached with superglue. Last night I was pretty dissapointed - 'sure, there's no self, but so what? Nothing's changed. I'm still here in my kitchen feeling tired and having to load the dishwasher" (Chop wood carry water ;-) )

So today I'm writing in the less sticky daytime. The view is far nicer from here :-) Something for sure has changed. What is actually happening is seen. Life, just happening. No manager, director, doer. Just life. Life is there first, it is PRIOR to the labelling and concepts, including the label "I am". So obvious, so simple. How could we possibly miss what is RIGHT HERE all the time? Amazing. Haha. Just amazing. Oh God, all the years spent looking for answers to give 'meaning' to the 'story of my life'. There is no more meaning to my life than that of a tree, or a fish, or my cat. Life is just here, alive-ing through and in trees and fish and cats and 'Kate'.

Last night I felt cross and shortchanged. (So sorry.....!) Today I feel profoundly grateful and a bit stunned really. And lighter. And the label machine has dropped down a few gears. I'm pretty certain that this will wax and wane. Doesn't matter, does it.

One final question, beyond any shadow of a doubt, do you find that there is no I, me or self?

I find nothing because there is nothing to find.

You have done a wonderful thing, staying with me through this. Thank you thank you thank you

Big big hug to you
Kate x

[kvotski]

Dear Kate,

I am sure you see what we see at LU. You may wish to review your journey with me here to remind you how things have flowed and then if you wish to, you can answer these guiding questions. This is not a test, just an indication to our group here to make sure you are on the same page as us.

Upon a review of your answers by three other guides, admin will invite you to join the group to guide others who may be in the same place as you and I, to see how simple things are missed in our search.

I will be here as long as you wish, either on this forum, on Facebook or private messages.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

It has been a mirror for me as your experience and travels are so akin to my own.

Much love to you and looking forward to many more conversations.

[kgreenbank]

Hi Sunil, OK, here we go.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No. There was a belief in a separate self, an assumption of one, but it cannot be found in reality. It does not exist. And never did.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion is created by the mind, which labels objects in experience with language as “things” , which are then seen as separate. A chair, a bird, a dream, a person. The combination of the body, its senses and thoughts is bundled together and labelled as “me”, or “I” – nothing more than a thought label, a reference point through which reality can be interpreted. Naturally the self is believed to be as real and as separate as everything else. This starts in early childhood: babies are born with neither the language nor experience to label objects - they have no sense of self, they just ARE. Over time, the combination of the natural function of the mind to sort, categorise and label, the acquisition of language and the reinforcing behaviour of everyone around the child (giving it a name and identity and teaching it how it lives in a world of separate people and things) cements yet another illusion.

This illusion of separation prevents a person from ever being satisfied. There will always be a sense that there is something missing, that life is incomplete. And of course from this perspective, there is.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Completely unremarkable and completely amazing at the same time. Seeing through the illusion was so obvious, simple and almost boringly, disappointingly pedestrian (after days of thinking it was impossible!!). It changes nothing and yet everything all at once. Life is exactly as it was before. And yet now it is seen that life is all there is – it’s here, it’s now, it’s everything, it’s IT, it’s all there is, it’s ENOUGH. There’s no need to look for anything else, there’s nothing missing; no need to explain it or look for meaning.
A lot of the time I feel like I did before I started this dialogue, and then there is a shift: reality seems friendlier, closer, more intimate; seeing is RIGHT HERE. Life is just inexplicably, immediately HERE and WOW. Lovely.

That’s not to say that ‘my’ life has been transformed. It’s just the same, I’m just the same. I’m still here, thoughts come and go, emotions come and go (good and bad), crappy stuff is still going to happen. There’s no fluffy pink cloud. The illusion is still operating, but it’s just not believed in anymore, and looking into d.e dismantles it. A burden has been lifted. I feel like I can just get on with life now. I am so grateful.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I was so identified with my thoughts. It was a huge struggle for me to get past that. There were two things which caused the ‘I thought’ to collapse in on itself : asking “Is there something that is thinking these thoughts” (No! Nothing! ); and then trying to see if I could predict my next thought or cause it (NO! The shock!). I’m a logical person, and there was absolutely nowhere for the mind to go with these exercises other than the realisation that self did not exist.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Decisions just happen. They are thoughts, arising in response to a set of circumstances, instincts, personality etc. They are not made by anyone. Same for intention. Self leaps in immediately after thoughts and claims ownership and creates a story about a me that is responsible for my life, and who exercises free will, choice and control. Nonsense. These things are part of the illusion. It’s so sophisticated.

Nothing makes things happen. There is no doer. It’s a complete fabrication and a terrible conceit actually. As if life needs an “I” to manage it! The hubris!! Still, as someone far wiser than me said “Forgive them, for they know not what they do”. :-)

6) Anything to add?

A deep bow to all at LU and love to all reading this. And heartfelt thanks to you, Sunil. Kate xx

[kvotski]

Nice.

I have no further questions, my friends may.

Will be back soon.

[kvotski]

Hi Kate,

We have a question from a dear guide about mind relating to q2 where you indicate that the mind creates this illusion.

In direct experience, do you find a mind?

[kgreenbank]

Hello dear guides

Do you find a mind in direct experience?

No, of course not. No mind can be found in d.e. There is the idea of a mind, an assumption that there is one. It’s a concept, a thought only, which in turn originates from other thoughts – beliefs about mind, memories of having being told there is a mind, of reading about the mind etc. Beliefs and memories are only thoughts arising now.
The whole story of being an entity in time collapses when this is examined: all there is is what’s happening, THIS, in the present moment. Everything else is fantasy. This ought to be alarming, but then there’s no ‘I’ to have an existential crisis. Haha. How amazing.
That said, I’m still here writing this on the train going to work. Crazy talk, except it’s true.
Kate x