Guide

[Robertdjemil]

Thank you. I will sit with it & come back to you once I fully understand what you're saying :)

[Robertdjemil]

Challenging questions. I need to sit with these as my mind is struggling with the questions let alone the answers :) are you saying that anything & everything 'object' that can be perceived can't be who we are?

[Canfora]

Challenging questions. I need to sit with these as my mind is struggling with the questions let alone the answers :)

It's possible that I have asked questions that sound like koans! If those questions aren't working there is no need to struggle with them. Let's see if I can simplify things a little. The goal here is to make you look, not to make you get tangled in thinking.

are you saying that anything & everything 'object' that can be perceived can't be who we are?

This is a very good question. I was saying that if the body is appearing in your experience, maybe you're not the body. What makes you think that you can be the body?

[Robertdjemil]

[quote][/quote]I dont believe there's a little man inside, I believe something far greater is in control but it feels like it's inside me & outside of me & no where in particular. I know that sounds a little crazy but it's hard to accurately describe my feelings. I feel it but I can't tie it down, pinpoint it or locate it to any place. I'm also trying to work it out logically & its making me lightheaded.

My hands appear to be part of me. My answer is the same as the above. There's no me that I can directly or specifically place.

Are you saying that any object I can visualise or perceive can't be me? If I close my eyes, I can witness that everything outside of my awareness is an object including my body but that's about as far as in able to go. Are you saying that if I can't be anything that can be perceived including expansive awareness then I must be something else beyond perception. In this case there appears to be no doer just an awareness of what is. Does that make sense?

The only reason I can give for thinking that I am the body is because I appear to operate from the body

[Robertdjemil]

In addition, I say there's no doer because because I inutively believe that but it feels like the body is the doer & I'm the body but as the body is an object that is being perceived & I can't be that which is being perceived I must be something else that's not doing but being but what that is I don't know

[Canfora]

I say there's no doer because because I inutively believe that but it feels like the body is the doer & I'm the body

What makes you say that it feels that the body is a doer?
When you walk, is a doer making the body move? Walk a little bit and see if there is a doer there doing the walking. Tell me what you find.

[Robertdjemil]

No there's no apparent doer. No mind behind it controlling it. Can I just say how grateful
I'm an to you for taking the time to point me. This means the world to me & im very grateful to you :)

[Robertdjemil]

If there's no doer what is driving action? In addition, am I in control of my own thoughts, feelings, decisions, choices? Do I have any free will? Is everything pre destined?

[Robertdjemil]

One thing I'd like to ask. Could my mind be driving walking, etc. it's learned begsiviur that my brain has remembered through long term repetition everything appears to act automatically like when you learn to drive a car, mistakes are made but after a while driving becomes automatic, we don't consciously drive we just drive. Couldn't be walking be the same thing?

[Canfora]

I'm not sure I understand your last question. Are you asking if walking is happening automatically because a brain is in control of the body?

That's a theory about what is going on. I love the way you're questioning things but it's not my role to answer your questions. I'm giving you the tools to answer them yourself - or to discover there can be more than a possible answer to the same question. More than a point of view :)

Have a fresh look to how moving the body happens, try this exercise:

Choose one of your arms. It doesn't matter which.
Wait for a moment, and then when you feel you wish to, raise that arm in the air.

Do this as many times as you like, and examine the experience directly without adding thought to what is happening.

Is there a 'you' moving the arm?

Does the 'body' move the arm?

Does the 'brain' move the arm?

Can you locate anything IN EXPERIENCE that is responsible for moving the arm?

Is 'I move the arm' something that matches the experience? Do you find an 'I' doing it?

Or is 'I move the arm' just a thought?

[Robertdjemil]

I'm only asking questions to give myself a point of reference in which to understand fully what you're asking. I'm finding it difficult to answer from direct experience, I'm not even sure I know what direct experience is. I understand it's looking with my sense organs but I'm not sure I'm looking in the right place because it feels like my mind is doing the thinking. I'm not trying to be awkward I'm simply being honest about where I am in the process right now.

I can't say that I can identify anything moving my arm but that's if I take my thoughts out of the equation, if I add my thoughts to the equation, I think I made the decision to move the arm at the point in which I thought about moving the arm. I know that this isn't correct but that's what appears to be happening in my experience right now

I will keep trying

[Robertdjemil]

Is this a common place to be at the beginning of equity as I feel I'm completely missing the point & tgats nit what I want to do

[Robertdjemil]

Sorry wrong spellings

Is this a common place to be at the beginning of enquiry, as I feel I'm completely missing the point & thats not what I want to do

[Robertdjemil]

I've given much thought today & I can't get away from the idea that I'm controlling my arms. I think about moving them & they move. I know intuitively that this isn't right but I'm struggling to see anything different

[Robertdjemil]

Watching my body, I can see that movements appear to be happening on their own without a doer, thought or instruction although my cyniical mind still wants to claim responsibility for movements