Just making sure "I" got it...

[ElPortal]

Hi Will,

Good to see you back.

1. So is there any sense of a separate self there now? If so, please describe it.
2. Should Life be any different in any way from how it is now?

Cheers

Mark

[CaptWill]

Hey Mark,

Nice to be back! A lot has changed!

I can't find ANY sense of a separate self! These thoughts that are happening suggest otherwise, but in "my" experience I don't see anything, just events occurring in Awareness!

If Life could be any different than it is now, it would be! But the thought that things should be different just comes from "Will," the unit Awareness uses to experience form!

I hope I'm being clear enough, as language doesn't even scrape the surface of what's going on, but it's the only way to communicate. It's like trying to describe what water tastes like! In an effort to be clear, when I say "I," "me," or "myself" I'm merely using to reference the experience of Awareness through this point of reference that is "Will." "Will" is just a concept, a story, a form.

I'd better shut up before I "language" things any worse!

So what do you think?

Peace,

Will

[ElPortal]

Hi Will,

Looking good. We can investigate a few things, then once all is clear, invite you to our Liberation Unleashed support groups.

a) So what changed? What was the breakthrough in seeing? Can you explain it to me (but without any non-dual jargon.. eg as though to a 12 year-old)?

b) As you say, language doesn't even scrape the surface. It seems that a few 'technical terms' have been picked up along the way. The main one I am referring to is 'Awareness' and Will being 'a unit Awareness uses to experience form' as you wrote in your first post of this series. Is anything truly known apart from 'this crazy experience' and even that would be a silly groping term kind of reaching for something that is ultimately TOTALLY indescribable!!??

Cheers

Mark

[CaptWill]

I think the breakthrough had been coming for a very long time. I've read A LOT on non-duality over the past few years, hence the "technical terms" I've picked up, and I began to notice gaps appearing between me and my thoughts. I noticed that my thoughts just happened, that I couldn't control them. After awhile, the gaps got bigger, and I noticed that in the stillness between there was something I couldn't describe. It was something that had been there since my earliest memories, the one thing that hadn't changed as I grew up.

Well, about six weeks ago, I was sitting with my mother in the waiting room of her doctor's office, and I was reading a book by Fred Davis called "The Book of Undoing." He does a lot of these "clarity sessions" in which he points the person toward their true self. I know it sounds hokey, and I didn't have very high hopes myself, but it was cheap and I figured "What the hell?" Anyway, as I was reading this book, participating in the exercises, there was a shift in my perception. I noticed a potted plant across the room, and as I looked at it, I realized that the plant and I were joined by the space between us, that there really was no separation. Sure, light was bouncing off of the plant and being received by my eyes and translated by my brain, but I, Will, was not doing any of it. It was just happening. Seeing was happening. I was happening. Things weren't happening TO me, they were happening THROUGH me.

It was a shock. It was a huge shock. I felt like I had fallen into a void, but instead of total emptiness, I found I was surrounded by a wholeness. It was like I wasn't just IN the Universe, but I was a part of it, wholly and completely. I actually saw that there was only one thing actually going on, and I was an inseparable part of that thing. Will wasn't a noun, he was a verb! I wasn't living life, life was living me! When I realized that, I felt overcome with joy and relief! I started laughing like an idiot, and getting very strange looks from my mother! It was as if all the books I'd read and teachers I'd listened too suddenly made complete and total sense! For the first time, I actually SAW what they had been talking about!

Over the next few weeks, I bobbed in and out of this state of clarity. I still am, but every time I come out of the cloudiness I notice that I identify with that sense of acceptance and wholeness a little more. It's like I'm doing physical therapy, and slowly getting stronger each time. And, believe me, it feels like learning how to walk all over again!

Thanks so much for helping me out!

Will

[ElPortal]

Hi Will,

Thanks for describing that experience. I get a sense of wow-ness even reading it!

Still, let's check what - if any - indentifications are left, ok?

Is there any sense of autonomous Will remaining that can intervene in Life's flow? (I'll use the term 'Life' for want of any better descriptor, it's as neutral as I can get!). Say, when you make some daily choice, such as what clothes to wear or what lunch to eat, could you try to describe that process, and tell me where if anywhere there is an autonomous agent (a unit of Life separate from the rest) making any independent choice, or controlling anything autonomously. Could you give me a blow by blow description of such an event, not imagined but actually do the action and report on it. Again please try to avoid any technical jargon. Just groping words are fine!

Cheers

Mark

[CaptWill]

Mark,

When I try to find an autonomous Will who makes any decisions, I have a real hard time finding one. For example, I'm deciding what to eat. It SEEMS like I'm making a decision, whether to have tuna and a salad or a nice unhealthy sandwich, and it SEEMS like there is a debate between which one, and then the choice is made. Logically, my mind tells me that there MUST BE a decider, but what I actually experience is a decision being made without any real interference from me. Deciding on the sandwich just happens. I see it happen, but I had no direct experience of having actually contributed to the decision making process. It happens by itself, and then my mind makes up a story to tie me into the event so that it makes sense.

It's almost like the body is on autopilot, like when I'm brushing my teeth. I don't think about every single stroke and movement of the brush, my body takes care of it and my teeth are cleaned without any direct intervention from me.

Even as I'm typing this, I can't find anyone who is choosing the letters and stringing them together into sentences. It's happening on its own! I don't experience any doer. Maybe this is what Lao Tzu was saying when he said "there is nothing done, but nothing remains undone."

I hope this is making sense,

Will

[ElPortal]

Hi Will,

Thanks for that. Yes, it makes lots of sense and that whole decision and control thing feels a lot like that here too.

It is our normal practice that other guides have a look at the dialogue and put any questions they may have for clarification. We have a set of summary questions, which I'll put to you. You've answered the 5th one pretty conclusively, so maybe just answer the bit about responsibility there. You've also pretty much answered the 4th one. So if you could answer the rest... again just from what feels real and authentic NOW, not from theory, and just in everyday language, as best you can, ok?

1) Can you find any separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever one?
 
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Just describe it fully as you see it now. 
 
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from as recently as possible.
 
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 
 
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How
does it work? What are you responsible for?

6) Anything to add?

I look forward to hearing from you when you are ready.

Cheers

Mark.

[CaptWill]

1) I keep looking, but I just can't find a separate "self" outside of my mind telling me that there must be a self. I know experience, not logic, are what counts here, and I'm just not experiencing a separate self. Was there ever one? Now that I look with this new way of seeing, no. It was all just a figment of my imagination!

2) The illusion of separate self, as I experience it, is like a role an played by an actor. The actor assumes the role of the character in order to interact with the other characters and circumstances in the play, but at the end of the day the character is shed and he returns to being his true Self. However, the difference between an actor and us is that we've forgotten we're playing a part because the mind believes the play is real, and we completely identify as the character. But the character isn't real! The play goes on as it always did, we still play our role, but the illusion is broken. I hope this makes sense, once again I find myself constrained by language.

3) It feels so liberating to realize that Will is just an illusion! It means that everything is just unfolding as it should, as it can, and there is no self to screw anything up! It's like a weight has been lifted from my chest! As I bob in and out of this clarity, it's like coming back up for a breath of fresh air. Each time I come up, I stay clear for a little longer. Things no longer bother me, because there is no me to be bothered! I can just let things unfold as they will!

5) What am I responsible for? If there's no me, doesn't that mean that responsibility is just another illusion? All I seem to be able to do is direct my attention towards my true self, and to stop identifying as Will. And as I experience that, even the direction of attention happens by itself, without my intervention. Things just happen, I am aware that they happen, but my body, thoughts, and mind, seem to take care of themselves.

6) I started this journey to become free, only to find that I've been free the whole time! Bondage was just an illusion! My ego is not in control, and never has been! It doesn't exist!

I hope I've answered these questions satisfactorily. Thank you so much for your help.

Will

[ElPortal]

Hi Will

Thanks for those responses. Enjoying the sense of release and relief!

Much of what we do in investigation is to look into and question conditioning (which can be a life-long process). Some of that conditioning is cultural, upbringing etc, and some of it can also be picked up in 'spiritual teachings'. Before putting this thread to other guides to read, I'd just like to invite you to explore something a little further:-

2) The illusion of separate self, as I experience it, is like a role an played by an actor. The actor assumes the role of the character in order to interact with the other characters and circumstances in the play, but at the end of the day the character is shed and he returns to being his true Self. However,

5) What am I responsible for? If there's no me, doesn't that mean that responsibility is just another illusion? All I seem to be able to do is direct my attention towards my true self, and to stop identifying as Will.

A) You mention there a couple of times a 'true Self'.and 'my true self'. Is this an assumption, received teaching, or an actual experience? What is the experience of such an entity... over and above the general flow of life? Is any actor experienced, behind the apparent character/role? If so, please describe.

B) The title you gave to this thread is "Just making sure "I" got it". Who or what is there there to have got anything? Is there any landing strip for the plane of awakening to land on?

Cheers

Mark

[CaptWill]

Hi Mark,

A) The "true Self" is just a description I am using. Is there a self? Not in my experience. But at the same time, there is SOMETHING which I can't describe. I've heard it called Presence, Awareness, and Being, but none of those descriptors really do it justice. It isn't a person, at all, but it's not totally empty, either. There's no actor behind the role, but there is something that's formless, shapeless, and abiding, and it's everywhere! There's no separation! I wish I had the words to describe it!

B) The title of the thread was a bit of a joke. I perceive that "Will" is just a set of ideas and patterns being held together by my mind, but has no real substance. There's nobody here to wake up! Awakeness was already happening, it just got distracted by the stories of the mind!

Thanks again,

Will

[ElPortal]

Lovely.

I'll put the conversation to other guides, and let you know if they have any questions.

M

[CaptWill]

Fantastic! I really appreciate all your time, patience, and help.

Will

[ElPortal]

Hi Will,

Privilege.

No queries at all from the other guides. I'll send you a private message. Let me know if you haven't received anything within a few hours.

Cheers

Mark