I am ready

[Sarah7]

No worries JP! S xx

[jeanpatrick]

OK – so this is where you need to concentrate looking. At decisions and doing. Think of a lift with a voice telling what floor you are on. The lift goes up and down but it isn’t driven by the vise – that just accompanies it. A little exercise!
Tap with two or three fingers on the leg. Tap, tap, tap. Then, hold the fingers poised ready to tap. Just waiting in the air for a command to tap.
Looking at the fingers in the air, it’s not quite known when they will tap. In fact, the thought “tap now” can quite happily show up and yet the fingers remain in the air.
See if you can notice the moment when the command is issued and from whence it comes SUCH THAT the fingers simply have to obey. Notice if other commands to tap can be issued which have no affect on the fingers, leaving them remaining in the air.
Is it true that in direct experience there is no command that can be issued to make the fingers tap?
What causes the finger to tap? Anything? See what can be discovered in experience rather than thought.

I'm not sure how to describe what made the fingers tap. It was simply "me". It wasn't a thought that did it. I can not tap my fingers and still think about tapping them, or command them. Most things "I" do just happen, I don't actually think about them and then do them in a linear fashion.

Are you sure here – if there was control there would be no ‘sometimes’. There is either a controller or there isn’t. If you could make thoughts do what you wanted – would there be a need for you to be here? Wouldn’t you have just turned off the ones you don’t want? Wouldn’t you? Look and see.

I don't think you have complete control but can choose how to react. I said sometimes because I also choose to just ignore them/let it go as well.

OK – yes the word real can be a bit confusing! Ill try to explain better. If you think of a green crisp apple. Are you experiencing the apple or the thought of an apple? If you think of an even from the past – are you experiencing the past or a thought – do you see? Now yes – you can stand in front of a red apple and thoughts will tell you it is there – but do you know for sure?

I don't know for sure, it's just a lot more practical to assume that what my senses tell me is the best representation of reality I have. If I'm hallucinating then... I'm hallucinating. Even if I went to touch it, and ate it, I could be hallucinating all of that as well.

Says who or what? OK maybe thoughts are saying if there is no controller then things would just fall apart…..? Or something like? Well – what if there was no controller – have they fallen apart……………………?

The way my thinking is going is something like:

"If I'm not in control than who is? What does control really mean anyways? It's just a word we use to describe separation of concern and responsibility. So I'm not in control, then this is all a bunch of energy being controlled by a higher being."

Then I start with but why have thoughts and why exist and why this or why that.

Then the control/decision question starts a thought process like:
"If I'm not really choosing anything then... I don't even know how to process that. If a bad guy didn't choose to murder someone, why should we punish him? But then the people doing the punishing wouldn't be choosing to do that either. Eventually nothing really matters and stuff just happens. By that logic I'm not even really doing any of this.

Why would I need to do this exercise if I'm not in control anyways?"

If I'm not choosing to do anything, how can I choose to look during the tapping exercise. Didn't I make the choice to come here? I think where I'm getting caught up is, "I chose to come here" isn't a real representation of what happened. It just happened...

I really can't say that there is a controller of movement. But it sure feels like I want there to be one.

Is that a thought wanting that?

It was a feeling of confusion I had. I've kind of accepted I'm not in control. Kind of...

[Sarah7]

Hey JP

I don't think you have complete control but can choose how to react.

Can you explain here and give me an example.

I said sometimes because I also choose to just ignore them/let it go as well.

How do you do that? Describe the process to me.

I don't know for sure, it's just a lot more practical to assume that what my senses tell me is the best representation of reality I have. If I'm hallucinating then... I'm hallucinating. Even if I went to touch it, and ate it, I could be hallucinating all of that as well.

OK – not asking you to do that! If you see a tiger please run! LOL. Im simply asking do you know anything for sure? Because that would be a belief then wouldn’t it? And a belief is what?

"If I'm not in control than who is? What does control really mean anyways? It's just a word we use to describe separation of concern and responsibility. So I'm not in control, then this is all a bunch of energy being controlled by a higher being."

Is that more thought explaining? Does there have to be an answer? Here we use direct experience, so what is it that you actually experience here? Do you experience control? Do you experience something else in control? Do you experience something or someone else? Do you experience a higher being?

"If I'm not really choosing anything then... I don't even know how to process that. If a bad guy didn't choose to murder someone, why should we punish him? But then the people doing the punishing wouldn't be choosing to do that either. Eventually nothing really matters and stuff just happens. By that logic I'm not even really doing any of this. Why would I need to do this exercise if I'm not in control anyways?"

Some excellent questions! Can you answer them?

I chose to come here" isn't a real representation of what happened. It just happened...

Yes. Do you see that?

It was a feeling of confusion I had. I've kind of accepted I'm not in control. Kind of...

Where is the one who accepted? Did you find that one? Or did acceptance just happen?
JP – I know this can all get a bit confusing, but that in itself is just a thought – do you see? Thought is trying to get this! Is that possible? Basics are where its all at – look at what is REALLY experienced. OK!
Big hugs Sarah xxx

[jeanpatrick]

I don't think you have complete control but can choose how to react.

Can you explain here and give me an example.

For example, I think about eating after 9pm. I have a craving for something sweet. I can follow those thoughts and do that or drink a glass of water.

I said sometimes because I also choose to just ignore them/let it go as well.

How do you do that? Describe the process to me.

I think something negative about a person or situation, then say a mantra to transmute or fend off that negative energy. From all the things I've read and talked about with other spiritual people I'm under the impression that there are negative forces that can make it seem like you're the one thinking something but it's really just in your aura.

Breaking it down, it's simply "That person is [bad word]" > "That was a negative thought" > "Mantra/Prayer here"

I don't actually think the words "That was a negative thought", but there's an awareness that acts like a filter. Sometimes the thoughts floating by are just disturbing and I feel the need to change it somehow and put out some positive energy.

I've also heard from a different camp that you should simply ignore those thoughts and not identify with them. I can't say how I choose which ones to ignore or not. It's based on how strongly the impression or imagery was and whether or not I'm in public.

OK – not asking you to do that! If you see a tiger please run! LOL. Im simply asking do you know anything for sure? Because that would be a belief then wouldn’t it? And a belief is what?

A belief is an assumption about reality. I don't know that the earth revolves around the sun, but I believe it. When closely examined... no we don't know anything for sure. As soon as you "think" it becomes something else.

"If I'm not in control than who is? What does control really mean anyways? It's just a word we use to describe separation of concern and responsibility. So I'm not in control, then this is all a bunch of energy being controlled by a higher being."

Is that more thought explaining? Does there have to be an answer? Here we use direct experience, so what is it that you actually experience here? Do you experience control? Do you experience something else in control? Do you experience something or someone else? Do you experience a higher being?

Yes, more thoughts and feelings! No there doesn't have to be an answer... I experience more thoughts trying/grasping, then a sense of slight confusion/exhaustion. There is no control at this moment, a faint memory of the previous thought exercise. It feels like I was a different person just a few days ago when I wrote that.

I was grasping at something the other day. It felt like their needed to be something in control, it was a desperation of sorts. Right now, I don't feel that.

I don't experience someone or something else... Or a higher being. I would say a higher being, god, universal energy or some variation to try and relate an experience to someone else in conversation but it's a manner of speech.

Honestly right now I can't say what control really means, it doesn't make sense!

"If I'm not really choosing anything then... I don't even know how to process that. If a bad guy didn't choose to murder someone, why should we punish him? But then the people doing the punishing wouldn't be choosing to do that either. Eventually nothing really matters and stuff just happens. By that logic I'm not even really doing any of this. Why would I need to do this exercise if I'm not in control anyways?"

Some excellent questions! Can you answer them?

No! Hahahahaha I was hoping you would/could. I don't know if you can answer any question that starts with why. The only answer to why is "Because."

There really is no point, it's just happening. Anything I think, or any thought that happens "to me", that's also part of what's happening.

I chose to come here" isn't a real representation of what happened. It just happened...

Yes. Do you see that?

Yes.

It was a feeling of confusion I had. I've kind of accepted I'm not in control. Kind of...

Where is the one who accepted? Did you find that one? Or did acceptance just happen?

It just happened.

JP – I know this can all get a bit confusing, but that in itself is just a thought – do you see? Thought is trying to get this! Is that possible? Basics are where its all at – look at what is REALLY experienced. OK!
Big hugs Sarah xxx

Yes I see that now. Can thought understand itself? It can't understand itself because it's not a real representation. It's kind of like... always being one step behind.

While looking at what is really experienced, I sat for a moment and labelled everything: breathing, hearing, feeling/touch, noises, etc. After a while a realization occurred that while those are "simple" thoughts, they're still all thoughts and then more awareness flooded in, somewhat devoid of thought for a very brief moment, then thought flooded back in saying things like "wow what was that, oh man what's going to happen next, i have to tell someone, etc etc etc".

[Sarah7]

Hey JP

For example, I think about eating after 9pm. I have a craving for something sweet. I can follow those thoughts and do that or drink a glass of water.

OK – so what Id like you to do is next time that ‘craving’ pops up have a real close look at it. Is it a feeling? Is it a sensation? Is it thought? Is it a sensation with a thought story wrapped around it? Go to the core of that ‘craving’. See if you can gently push the thoughts to one side and stare at it. What is it?

I think something negative about a person or situation, then say a mantra to transmute or fend off that negative energy. From all the things I've read and talked about with other spiritual people I'm under the impression that there are negative forces that can make it seem like you're the one thinking something but it's really just in your aura.

OK – What is actually being experienced here? This isn’t about picking up what other people tell you – its about verifying EVERYTHING yourself! Including me! OK!
Do you experience negative energy – or is that a thought? Is that a thought label? Is that a story built up around something been said? Is that a belief story? What are the words ‘right’ and ‘wrong’? Are they labels? Take the word water – is it actually water? Or is it a thought about water? A story? Can the word actually capture the experience?
Can you stop ‘negative’ thoughts? Do you assume Buddha never thought? And never had ‘negative’ thoughts?
What power do thoughts have? Really – what can a thought do?

I was grasping at something the other day. It felt like their needed to be something in control, it was a desperation of sorts. Right now, I don't feel that.

OK – yes thought will do this! It may try everything including bringing out the big guns! LOL. Just notice and smile! Can thought ever understand this? Even though it will try?

Honestly right now I can't say what control really means, it doesn't make sense!

Yes it does – just look and notice! Do you see it all collapsing? Is this big gun thoughts? Gently go round them. Thank them for caring and for looking out for you.
Go sit somewhere quiet and look. Is it like an ocean with waves coming up and going back down? Is it like a sky with different clouds crossing it? Is it like a mirror with multiple reflections passing its surface?

There really is no point, it's just happening. Anything I think, or any thought that happens "to me", that's also part of what's happening.

Lovely!

Yes I see that now. Can thought understand itself? It can't understand itself because it's not a real representation. It's kind of like... always being one step behind. While looking at what is really experienced, I sat for a moment and labelled everything: breathing, hearing, feeling/touch, noises, etc. After a while a realization occurred that while those are "simple" thoughts, they're still all thoughts and then more awareness flooded in, somewhat devoid of thought for a very brief moment, then thought flooded back in saying things like "wow what was that, oh man what's going to happen next, i have to tell someone, etc etc etc".

Fabulous! Hugs Sarah xxx

[jeanpatrick]

OK – so what Id like you to do is next time that ‘craving’ pops up have a real close look at it. Is it a feeling? Is it a sensation? Is it thought? Is it a sensation with a thought story wrapped around it? Go to the core of that ‘craving’. See if you can gently push the thoughts to one side and stare at it. What is it?

It's a sensation with some kind of story wrapped around it. Most of the time it's a desire to add something pleasurable.

OK – What is actually being experienced here? This isn’t about picking up what other people tell you – its about verifying EVERYTHING yourself! Including me! OK![/quote[

I see that. It's all a story mixed with beliefs and labels.

Do you experience negative energy – or is that a thought? Is that a thought label? Is that a story built up around something been said? Is that a belief story? What are the words ‘right’ and ‘wrong’? Are they labels? Take the word water – is it actually water? Or is it a thought about water? A story? Can the word actually capture the experience?

It's a story. No, I don't believe words can properly relate an experience.

Can you stop ‘negative’ thoughts? Do you assume Buddha never thought? And never had ‘negative’ thoughts?
What power do thoughts have? Really – what can a thought do?

I have no control over what kind of thoughts I experience. I assume Buddha had all kinds of thoughts and through meditation and enlightenment was able to control them, or not be affected by them.

Thoughts have only the power you give to them.

OK – yes thought will do this! It may try everything including bringing out the big guns! LOL. Just notice and smile! Can thought ever understand this? Even though it will try?

No, I don't think thought can understand itself.

Honestly right now I can't say what control really means, it doesn't make sense!

Yes it does – just look and notice! Do you see it all collapsing? Is this big gun thoughts? Gently go round them. Thank them for caring and for looking out for you.
Go sit somewhere quiet and look. Is it like an ocean with waves coming up and going back down? Is it like a sky with different clouds crossing it? Is it like a mirror with multiple reflections passing its surface?

Yes, it's like a sky with clouds passing through. The idea of control, these other stories about me and battling negative thoughts are also just clouds passing through!

[Sarah7]

Hey JP

It's a sensation with some kind of story wrapped around it. Most of the time it's a desire to add something pleasurable.

Yes. We are DNA encoded to do this! And that’s OK!

I see that. It's all a story mixed with beliefs and labels.

And how often do you notice stories trying to attach or build?

It's a story. No, I don't believe words can properly relate an experience.

Believe or noticed?

I have no control over what kind of thoughts I experience. I assume Buddha had all kinds of thoughts and through meditation and enlightenment was able to control them, or not be affected by them. Thoughts have only the power you give to them.

Who or what controls thought here? Who of what gives power?
Does enlightenment come with a story of what you think it is?

No, I don't think thought can understand itself.

Think or noticed? Look.
Hugs Sarah xxx

[jeanpatrick]

And how often do you notice stories trying to attach or build?

All the time! In everyday conversation I'm noticing how so much of being human is about these stories.

It's a story. No, I don't believe words can properly relate an experience.

Believe or noticed?

I noticed it and now believe it.

I have no control over what kind of thoughts I experience. I assume Buddha had all kinds of thoughts and through meditation and enlightenment was able to control them, or not be affected by them. Thoughts have only the power you give to them.

Who or what controls thought here? Who of what gives power?
Does enlightenment come with a story of what you think it is?

In my example I thought of, someone was being driven crazy by their thoughts because they didn't ignore them or let them pass by and ended up in a mental hospital or hurting themselves. So this person would be giving their power, or belief to their thoughts.

Enlightenment definitely has certain things attached to it for me. I never actually sat down and thought well after I'm enlightened xyz will happen. My assumptions were along the lines of being much happier and spreading joy, not being bothered by much and being "lighter".

No, I don't think thought can understand itself.

Think or noticed? Look.

Hehe I knew I shouldn't have said it like that. It was an observation, a noticing. I didn't think it.

[Sarah7]

Hey JP

All the time! In everyday conversation I'm noticing how so much of being human is about these stories.

Keep looking. Is this a problem? If so to whom or what? What if you become caught up in a story – is that a problem? If so to what?

I noticed it and now believe it.

Belief is what? A thought? Noticed is all that’s needed – no need to add more beliefs! LOL. Is anything permanent? If not - how can a belief be?

So this person would be giving their power, or belief to their thoughts.

Can ‘you’ let them pass by? Is there a you to do this? Can you chose not to give power to thoughts? Or does identifying just happen along with everything else!

Enlightenment definitely has certain things attached to it for me. I never actually sat down and thought well after I'm enlightened xyz will happen. My assumptions were along the lines of being much happier and spreading joy, not being bothered by much and being "lighter".

OK – assumptions and expectations can be quite subtle. Have a good dig around and bring them up to the surface. For instance what tells you you aren’t there (where ever that is) yet?
Do you have any questions JP – anything you want to look at?
Has seeking stopped? Or is it still felt?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[jeanpatrick]

Keep looking. Is this a problem? If so to whom or what? What if you become caught up in a story – is that a problem? If so to what?

I don't think there's a choice in the matter just something I've noticed.

Belief is what? A thought? Noticed is all that’s needed – no need to add more beliefs! LOL. Is anything permanent? If not - how can a belief be?

Nothing that I know of is permanent.

Can ‘you’ let them pass by? Is there a you to do this? Can you chose not to give power to thoughts? Or does identifying just happen along with everything else!

It just happens, I have no control before hand.

OK – assumptions and expectations can be quite subtle. Have a good dig around and bring them up to the surface. For instance what tells you you aren’t there (where ever that is) yet?

I still have problems that are "normal"... I assume/expect enlightenment would come after those problems are worked through and you reach a certain level. I will look at this more.

Do you have any questions JP – anything you want to look at?

What's the difference between noticing and believing? How can you notice something than not believe it to be true?

Has seeking stopped? Or is it still felt?

It is still felt but much less.

Hugs Sarah xxx

Hugs! Thank you :D

[Sarah7]

Hey JP

I still have problems that are "normal"... I assume/expect enlightenment would come after those problems are worked through and you reach a certain level. I will look at this more.

Have you seen what is written at the bottom of each of my posts? Have a look at it.
Do you expect ‘problems’ to not come? That everything will be blissful or happy? What state is ever permanent?
What is the word ‘problem’? A label for what? Label for a thought? For who or what is there a problem?
Did you expect NOT to react in a certain manner e.g. getting angry? If anger happens look behind it – is there someone there who IS angry, or is there just anger?

What's the difference between noticing and believing? How can you notice something than not believe it to be true?

Sorry – Im going to answer with yet another question!
Belief is a thought, a repeated thought or a story thought – yes? Do you see that?
OK – so when looking – do you notice what is seen AND what is thought? Kind of like looking in a mirror and seeing reflections – one reflection is of images and another reflection is of thoughts. Is that what you experience when looking? Does something notice thoughts, feelings, sensations, seeing etc?

It is still felt but much less.

Do you see stories attached to it? E.g. ‘this isn’t it’?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[jeanpatrick]

Do you expect ‘problems’ to not come? That everything will be blissful or happy? What state is ever permanent?
What is the word ‘problem’? A label for what? Label for a thought? For who or what is there a problem?
Did you expect NOT to react in a certain manner e.g. getting angry? If anger happens look behind it – is there someone there who IS angry, or is there just anger?

It's just anger, we say "I was angry" when relating but in that moment there's no identification... only after the fact. I don't expect problems not to come but I expected a certain sense of ease in dealing with them. My expectations were that things would be easier because I was more powerful in some way.

Sorry – Im going to answer with yet another question!
Belief is a thought, a repeated thought or a story thought – yes? Do you see that?
OK – so when looking – do you notice what is seen AND what is thought? Kind of like looking in a mirror and seeing reflections – one reflection is of images and another reflection is of thoughts. Is that what you experience when looking? Does something notice thoughts, feelings, sensations, seeing etc?

Aha, as soon as I start to try and describe this I noticed it became a story. I see what you mean by the difference between those two. There is noticing, feelings, sensations etc, and when "I" is introduced or other thoughts, it becomes a story which may be related to beliefs.

Do you see stories attached to it? E.g. ‘this isn’t it’?

What came up was "this can't be it" and "I can't see this clearly enough yet". I was looking for a state of more lucidity and control over thoughts so I'm not lost in them all the time.

[Sarah7]

Hey JP

It's just anger, we say "I was angry" when relating but in that moment there's no identification... only after the fact. I don't expect problems not to come but I expected a certain sense of ease in dealing with them. My expectations were that things would be easier because I was more powerful in some way.

So you see the expectations here now? See they are all stories? Are you clear here now – or do we need to look some more at this?

What came up was "this can't be it" and "I can't see this clearly enough yet". I was looking for a state of more lucidity and control over thoughts so I'm not lost in them all the time.

And now? Are you still looking for something? To go back to the mirror again! Can the reflection ever be separate from the mirror? Can you separate a wave from the ocean? When are you NOT what you are looking for? When are you NOT this?

OK then - lets have a tidy up session! As always, in direct experience:
Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?
Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?
Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?
Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?
Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations?
Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?
Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?
Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

Do you feel the illusion of self has been revealed? If so what remains?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[jeanpatrick]

So you see the expectations here now? See they are all stories? Are you clear here now – or do we need to look some more at this?

I see that they're stories yes.

And now? Are you still looking for something? To go back to the mirror again! Can the reflection ever be separate from the mirror? Can you separate a wave from the ocean? When are you NOT what you are looking for? When are you NOT this?

The only time I'm not what I'm looking for is when that story comes up of the expectations of what it 'should' be like. That whole thought story/belief is just more of the same...

OK then - lets have a tidy up session! As always, in direct experience:
Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?
Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?
Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?
Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

No.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations?
Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

Yes.

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?
Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

No.

Do you feel the illusion of self has been revealed? If so what remains?

Yes, it has been revealed. What remains are thoughts and emotions, sensations, stories, beliefs...

Thanks again :D

[Sarah7]

So then JP
Ready for some final questions? Take as much time with these as you wish and answer in as much detail as needed. I will then check them over to see if there is anything I have missed and then show the other guides to see if 'I' have missed anything if that is ok with you?

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
6) Anything to add?
Big hugs Sarah xxx