Searching for a guide

[JonathanR]

Hi Chris,

Only when awareness is on a movement, then thought arises saying that was me that did that. If awareness isn't on the movement it just still moved by itself.

Right. So it just moved by itself when not being noticed. So then thought arises with the noticing of the movement and thought claims ownership or announces something along the lines of 'I decided to do this' or 'I chose to do this'.

Does the thought create a 'decider'? Does thought create a 'chooser'? Where is the decider or chooser?

Seeing that there is no 'doer' can come after seeing that there is no 'self'. This insight can fall into place as it is repeatedly noticed that 'self' is completely absent (except as a thought of it).

For example, walking happens. Is there an 'I' in control of 'right leg forward, foot down, pressure, evaluation of weight and pivoting in relation to pavement, complex muscular tensions and movements, projection of body-mass in such a way as other leg swings forward, as first remains in place but foot moves very slightly sideways to accommodate a need to swivel slightly for perfect pendulum action ...(etc etc) all without consideration of visual assessment or how energy is balanced or distributed throughout body, or how the spine remains balanced and the head remains balanced?

...Or is the actual experience one where walking just happens?

Perhaps there is the thought 'yes but I am deciding that in five minutes I will go to the shops'. But in that case 'five minutes' relates to a concept of a 'future' that is not here right now and not happening. It's not going to arrive either because isn't 'future' its self simply a thought?

At some stage going to the shops may happen right now. Does a 'self' walk to the shops right now? Does a 'self' 'decide', or is the idea of 'me deciding' just a routine of thought in which an 'I exists and takes decisions'?

I have this idea that there should be some sort of event or pop of understanding, like a clear sober without a doubt understanding? This hasn't happened.

Sometimes there is a subtle expectation that there should be a pop or some fireworks and some people do experience a sudden shift, whilst for others there is a smooth but clear dawning. (Mine was fairly smooth). It often happens that people are waiting for 'something else' to happen when, in fact, they have seen through the illusion. It is easy to miss the subtlety of this.

Is there a 'self here right now?

If there is an illusion of one, how or where is it appearing?

Jon.

[Earthninja]

Hi Jon

Yes I can see that now, all the hugely complex movements are just happening of themselves. There is no orchestration of it. It happens with or without thoughts and awareness on it. I can't find any 'doer' of movement. Even the belief of a doer seems to come after the fact but only as a thought. These thoughts again just arise and pass away.
It's amazing how we never question these assumptions until questioned like this!

. Is there a 'self here right now?

If there is an illusion of one, how or where is it appearing?

The self isn't there when investigated in, and it's still not there even when no inquiry takes place. It's all just belief, no substance to it at all.
Right now the illusion is appearing as it always has but when awareness arises on this investigation the self disappears(as a believed entity). There is witnessing of the thoughts of I and there is knowing this is an illusion. The body moves by itself and there is increased noticing it is all just happening. There is more awareness of the senses without importance to thoughts.
Is this it then?

Thank you for all your help Jon.

I really appreciate it.

Chris

[JonathanR]

Hi Chris,

Thank you for all your help Jon.

You are very welcome.

I can't find any 'doer' of movement. Even the belief of a doer seems to come after the fact but only as a thought.

Great!

Notice how thought first conjures up an idea of a 'future' in which an action that 'I' have 'decided to do' will be carried out by a 'me'? (It's as if there is a picture of 'myself' momentarily doing the action, isn't there?)

And after what seemed like a 'decision made', some experience follows and thought creates a picture of a 'past' in which there had been a real entity that made an actual decision (and then made something happen).

The self isn't there when investigated in, and it's still not there even when no inquiry takes place. It's all just belief, no substance to it at all.
Right now the illusion is appearing as it always has but when awareness arises on this investigation the self disappears(as a believed entity). There is witnessing of the thoughts of I and there is knowing this is an illusion. The body moves by itself and there is increased noticing it is all just happening. There is more awareness of the senses without importance to thoughts.
Is this it then?

It's the end of the belief in a separate self, wouldn't you say?

Now I'd like to ask you the six questions previously mentioned. I'll give you three to start with:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2)Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3)How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Jon.

[Earthninja]

Hi Jon!

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No there isn't one, it's simply a strong belief or identification with thoughts. There is no self anywhere, and there never has been a self. There is no entity living this life, it's all connected processes playing out life.

. 2)Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of self is a strong psychological belief in an entity that is behind or controller of the body and mind. Bodily actions are made and thoughts arise surrounding these actions. They label the actions as "I am doing this" these thoughts arise after the action has been made. If the thought is believed it creates a further dialogue of thoughts that string together sentences about the "I".
It appears actions can be made without the thoughts but it's still belief that links them. The "I" thought seems to arise very prominently around wherever awareness is focused. When awareness is not focused on anything, the thoughts appear more random and pass quickly.
If awareness is on a thought and the thought is believed, then a whole stream of thoughts surrounding the "I" emerge. The thoughts seem to focus heavily on past and future. Without belief the thought is simply a thought. :)

. 3)How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels like a lot more finally makes sense, the separation from life has always been an illusion! Life is simply living itself. The difference since the dialogue with you started was that there was very strong identification with thoughts and bodily movements/speech and choices. Since your pointing there has been a clear understanding that I am not these things. I can now simply observe the I thought and know this is not self. Before I only knew intellectually, now I know Experientially.

Thanks so much,

Best regards

Chris

[JonathanR]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for your answers. To question 2, you say:

The "I" thought seems to arise very prominently around wherever awareness is focused. When awareness is not focused on anything, the thoughts appear more random and pass quickly.
If awareness is on a thought and the thought is believed, then a whole stream of thoughts surrounding the "I" emerge.

Is there 'awareness' that can be 'focused'? Is there a 'doer' of awarenes?

and on question 3...

I can now simply observe the I thought and know this is not self. Before I only knew intellectually, now I know Experientially.

Who or what 'observes' or 'knows'?

look at these extra little questions and I'll send the remainder of the six next time.

Love,

Jon

[Earthninja]

Hi Jon!

Thanks for helping me look deeper.

. Is there 'awareness' that can be 'focused'? Is there a 'doer' of awarenes?

In this experience there is two kinds of awareness(seems that way?), one seems to be a panoramic awareness, the other a "focused" awareness. Like right now there is awareness of fingers typing but there is still subtle awareness of the room. Hard to describe!

Either way, previously the "focused" awareness seems to move from object to object but this movement is not done by anything. It clearly moves itself the same way the right leg moves.

. Who or what 'observes' or 'knows'?

Wow, great question. Previously I had experiences of being the 'witness' of reality. I can see now this is still belief in a subtle self. There is intelligent observation but this is all part of life, there is no observer. It's all processes with no owner or single entity observing and knowing. Knowing just happens and the same goes for all observations. You can really see the importance in investigating every inch of belief. The observations are impersonal, only the thoughts of I imply personal.

Thanks for helping 'me' look deeper, it's easy to overlook these subtle points.

Kind regards

Chris

[JonathanR]

Hi Chris,

Great reply! Let's move to the last three questions then.

4)What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5)Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

All best,

Jon

[Earthninja]

G'day Jon!

.
4)What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

When you asked me to look at movements, to watch for a point where the decision was made. If there was a decision, it was only a thought but I know the decision was already made. The thoughts come after. Other movements without thought are clearly just moving. No mover. This was the last thing that wasn't clear.

. 5)Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

No, there are 'decisions, choices and controls' but these aren't made by 'me'. These just happen, the apparent 'choices' are only ever thoughts that have arisen by themselves. They come after the fact. I don't make anything happen in life, breathing, being hungry, going to work etc. all these happen of themselves. Dialogue with other people just happens, words are just understood and replies are made with no entity actually controlling this.

. 6) Anything to add?

To be honest I feel like there is an apparent struggle going on at the moment. Depressive thoughts are surfacing and my wife and friends are a bit worried. Initially there were feelings of relief but now there is feelings of sadness. There is still an underlying peace with all this because awareness resurfaces and belief in the person disappears again. It's like an oscillation of belief of person and just life.
My wife asked if I could forget about all this and just go back to normal. I tried... I can never believe I am a person again haha. Because there isn't anybody!

Jon although all the above is going on, at least I can now see there is no I. I'm incredibly thankful for your help and those who make this site possible. There is a deep understanding here that was covered over by false beliefs. There is still a long way to go but at least this being has been shown the right path.


Best regards

Chris

[JonathanR]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for your clear answers.

Regarding depressive thoughts, do these seem nihilistic? From one point of view 'no self' might seem nihilistic. But has anything actually been lost or destroyed?

It isn't even as if there had been a 'real self' pulling the strings all this time.. In fact the illusory self will continue to make appearances in the form of thoughts. It's just that now it is possible to see what is going on :-)

The other important side is that without an imagined 'self' experience becomes direct, actual, immediate. Nature can seem very delightful.

Before I invite the guides to look at our conversation, it might be good for us to look at whatever thoughts are troubling you? Either here or by PM of you'd feel happier with that?

The other thing to add is that there is an 'aftercare: group that those who have recently gone through the gate can use. Its not at all uncommon to experience happy or sad feelings or fear.

Warm wishes,

Jon

[Earthninja]

Hi Jon!

How are you? I'm happy to reply in here, your answers might clear up something for another member browsing the site who has had similar experiences. :)
The thoughts are semi nihilistic, they appear confused and trying to make sense of reality now. It's almost as if the mind can't handle the lack of belief it once had. The body keeps doing it's thing regardless of these thoughts. There is still identity to some if these thoughts but awareness kicks in and the belief subsides.

There is increased awareness to the senses and a feeling of everything being less personal now. Life is certainly not light and free at the moment on a surface level but there is a deeper clarity of being ok.

I know everything is ok, just strong thoughts arising regarding "I know I'm not a person, but I know 'I' (as experiencing) exist, but as what?" Identity gets pulled into these some of the time.

There is still identity mainly around people and intense thoughts.

It's all good though! :)

Thanks Jon!

[JonathanR]

Hi Chris,

I'm very well thanks.

I'm happy to reply in here, your answers might clear up something for another member browsing the site who has had similar experiences. :)

Great. Very helpful. Thank you.

The thoughts are semi nihilistic, they appear confused and trying to make sense of reality now. It's almost as if the mind can't handle the lack of belief it once had

I can't predict (and it would be wrong for me to do so) but I strongly suspect that this is immediate discomfort is a short phase, turbulence if you like? As Alan Watts used to say, it's like falling (which is frightening), but then, there is no bottom to this, you are not going to hit anything, so its possible to relax. How does that sound?

I know everything is ok, just strong thoughts arising regarding "I know I'm not a person, but I know 'I' (as experiencing) exist, but as what?" Identity gets pulled into these some of the time.

Good question. 'As what'? Perhaps thought is a bit desparate to reassert its's imagined dominion, hence the appearance of 'strong thoughts'? Can thoughts be 'strong' or is that just what they like to say?

There is still identity mainly around people and intense thoughts.

OK. Can you say how this manifests around 'people'?



Love,

Jon

[Earthninja]

Hi Jon!

. I can't predict (and it would be wrong for me to do so) but I strongly suspect that this is immediate discomfort is a short phase, turbulence if you like? As Alan Watts used to say, it's like falling (which is frightening), but then, there is no bottom to this, you are not going to hit anything, so its possible to relax. How does that sound?

Alan Watts is fantastic, I love his videos. I maintained that attitude of acceptance and allowed myself to relax. The storm of thoughts have subsided at the moment. Thank you.

.Good question. 'As what'? Perhaps thought is a bit desparate to reassert its's imagined dominion, hence the appearance of 'strong thoughts'? Can thoughts be 'strong' or is that just what they like to say?

By strong I mean more likely to recreate the thoughts about a self. They are not strong or weak. They all carry the same weight. But it's like you said, they like to label things as strong :).

. OK. Can you say how this manifests around 'people'?

It seems that when around people I know, conversations seem to bring back the belief in a self for a time. Mostly in stressful situations. After awhile, checking in happens and thoughts are once again thoughts. No belief in the content. When I'm alone it's easier to not get pulled into the stories. They are clearly observed. :)

[JonathanR]

Hey Chris,

There is some lovely news. I asked the guides to look over our conversation and they feel you have gone through the gate. They don't have any further questions for you.

Of course you knew this yourself bit it is nice that everyone else sees it too. Congratulions!

I will post again in an hour or two with extra details but just want to say it has been such a pleasure to work with you.

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hello again Chris,

Well, now you are 'through' our conversation here is at an end. It has been a sheer pleasure looking with you. There is other stuff to let you know about but we will switch to PM for that. I'll PM you, so look out for that.

Before very long our conversation here will be moved by LU admins to the Archive section and your name will turn blue. You'll also notice some 'further guiding' forums open up to you. Feel free to use those if you wish.

All the best,

Jon

[Earthninja]

Hi Jon!

I can't thank you and the people who make this site possible enough. I would very much like to keep in contact with you and this site. It feels like this is just the beginning but a huge first step in wiping away the sleep.

I am so grateful for having this opportunity and I would love to guide others once I'm more established in seeing no self. That's the least I could do to repay what you did for me.

Jon thank you for your patience and guidance, you truly change 'peoples' lives.

With kind regards

Chris