hoping that now is here - can someone guide me please?

[kvotski]

Hi Sunil, just checking in. No sensational progress to report. I read a lot of LU stuff last night and my mind was spiralling all over the place. Felt a bit overwhlemed with it all so I'm back to simple noticing today. Trying to see how life is just lifing and there is no self controlling it. Body moving, breathing, thought happening, decisions being made. K

Yes, reading other people's threads can throw you into different realms which you may or may not be ready for. So set aside other threads for now as well. All guides are on the same wavelength but all seekers may not be.

Come back with what you think stands in the way to realizing that I, me and self is an illusion? A strong illusion that may keep coming back but only due to force of habit rather than serious doubts. If there are doubts let's get them now.

[kgreenbank]

One question for you. How does it feel when you try to accept that I, me or self is an illusion? After a few days of work.

It feels mainly REALLY confusing, and a little sad. How can it be that the self is apparently obsessed with finding out that it doesn’t exist? It is an unanswerable paradox. I am stuck in a loop. Where are these thoughts coming from? If they are just what’s happening, then why are they also surrounded by thoughts trying to either invalidate or attribute meaning to them? How can conflicting thoughts arise simultaneously? Where is this ‘inner guidance’ coming from? Does something want this to happen? Who? What? Then make it EASIER goddammit! Who is thinking “You don’t exist, there’s no one there, just look”. WHO IS THINKING “Why am I so driven to pursue this enquiry? Where is this impulse coming from” WHO IS THINKING “WHO IS THINKING?” It’s impossible, like being in a mental hall of mirrors. Thoughts and sub thoughts and sub sub thoughts, chasing each other. The looking at the looking at the looking….You know the snake that eats itself, starting with its own tail, the urubus I think it’s called? That’s what my mind feels like right now.

There is also tiredness: not helped by a lot of pressure at work, not enough sleep.

The sadness seems to be about how this may be a never ending search, or maybe just nuts (see doubts below). It’s consuming so much time and energy. The idea that it may continue this for the rest of my life is quite frankly appalling. And yet it is impossible to put down. If I was able to walk away from family and work I swear I would happily enter renunciate life and focus on this with every moment possible. It is ALL I think about when not actively distracted with other matters. Round and round and round spinning in the mental mirror ball.
There were a couple of curious moments today. Perhaps of no significance. Dunno.
- Feelings of profound compassion at the news of the second Nepal earthquake. To the point (nearly) of tears in the office. Not like me at all.
- Looking at my reflection in the mirror, a person was very briefly seen without identification as being me. And memory that this occurred once in childhood, just for a moment. I’d forgotten that entirely

[kgreenbank]

Come back with what you think stands in the way to realizing that I, me and self is an illusion? A strong illusion that may keep coming back but only due to force of habit rather than serious doubts. If there are doubts let's get them now.

Doubts are:
- This is a morbid obsession preventing me from fully enjoying life
- I am being absurdly self-absorbed (literally, ha) and more than a little flaky. This time would be far better spent helping other people
- Enlightenment experiences, the experience of no-self, are the simply the result of abnormal brain function, of an altered, dissociated, state of consciousness – many possible triggers for this. The resultant belief of the person that this is the “truth” is a kind of benign psychosis
- Self can not be found because humans aren’t equipped with the ability to find it. Like looking for ultra violet light (I am quite impressed that my mind has come up with this one – it is a fighter, for sure)
- Realisation of no self may result in mental or emotional catastrophe (preventing ability to work and care for kids.)
- This process or the result will alienate me from people I care about (see flaky point)
- This will prevent me from finding a loving relationship. Actually it kind of is already. Obsession with self-realisation is not understood by a significant percentage of the population. (Is it my fate to die alone surrounded by cats and Mooji videos…? Sob sob.)
- This is a test which I am going to fail so better not even try – some anticipated shame and embarrassment there
- Think that’s it, for now.

I have to work late tonight so I won’t be digging around anymore today. Much gratitude for your support and patience and time. Pretty amazing that you do this. K

Immediately after writing this I have had a realisation Sunil. There is nothing I can do to make this happen, is there? Nothing. Whether I post on LU, whether I follow your guidance, or not, whether I believe this, or fight it, or just give up. These things will either happen, or not. I have no influence over whether or when Truth is seen. There is nothing I can do to speed it up or trigger it. There never was and never will be.

I don’t know what to do with this. Holy cow, Batman.

K

[kvotski]

How can it be that the self is apparently obsessed with finding out that it doesn’t exist? It is an unanswerable paradox. I am stuck in a loop. Where are these thoughts coming from? If they are just what’s happening, then why are they also surrounded by thoughts trying to either invalidate or attribute meaning to them? How can conflicting thoughts arise simultaneously?

Do you know where breath is coming from? Or the sensation of touch or taste? Neruroscientists will give a technical answer but they still don't know what makes this happen? You don't ask such questions of other senses because there is a sense of thinking that is asking and answering. When trying to find out what thought is, it is the same thought trying to figure it out. Hence the paradox.

But the questioning itself is another thought. Is there an I doing this thinking? And can you find it in direct expereience?

Where is this ‘inner guidance’ coming from? Does something want this to happen? Who? What? Then make it EASIER goddammit! Who is thinking “You don’t exist, there’s no one there, just look”. WHO IS THINKING “Why am I so driven to pursue this enquiry? Where is this impulse coming from” WHO IS THINKING “WHO IS THINKING?” It’s impossible, like being in a mental hall of mirrors. Thoughts and sub thoughts and sub sub thoughts, chasing each other. The looking at the looking at the looking….You know the snake that eats itself, starting with its own tail, the urubus I think it’s called? That’s what my mind feels like right now.

Does there have to be a who that is doing all this thinking? Why can it not be just another natural process like breathing, hearing or tasting?

The sadness seems to be about how this may be a never ending search, or maybe just nuts (see doubts below). It’s consuming so much time and energy. The idea that it may continue this for the rest of my life is quite frankly appalling. And yet it is impossible to put down. If I was able to walk away from family and work I swear I would happily enter renunciate life and focus on this with every moment possible. It is ALL I think about when not actively distracted with other matters. Round and round and round spinning in the mental mirror ball.
There were a couple of curious moments today. Perhaps of no significance. Dunno.
- Feelings of profound compassion at the news of the second Nepal earthquake. To the point (nearly) of tears in the office. Not like me at all.
- Looking at my reflection in the mirror, a person was very briefly seen without identification as being me. And memory that this occurred once in childhood, just for a moment. I’d forgotten that entirely

Do you think more often than you breathe? Yet breathing doesn't cause any anguish but thinking does. Why? Is it because there is this illusion that you are doing the thinking. Where is this something? Does there have to be one?
Would this thinker go away if renounced life? Or would it go away when you realised that it doesn't exist at least not in way that it can be found.

This is the problem I was referring to when gurus ascribe this something to consciousness, awareness or god. I have no quarrel with such assumptions. What gives us trouble is when we equate this unknown to an I, me or self. And even the gurus point to this. We want to first establish that there is no separate self. A search for the mystery that remains can continue or end. I do not have to nor can I ever find the answer as I is simply an illusion.

[kvotski]

-

This is a morbid obsession preventing me from fully enjoying life

Is there someone with the obsession or it it simply a thought?

-

I am being absurdly self-absorbed (literally, ha) and more than a little flaky. This time would be far better spent helping other people

Yes, once the the illusion is realised.

-

Enlightenment experiences, the experience of no-self, are the simply the result of abnormal brain function, of an altered, dissociated, state of consciousness – many possible triggers for this. The resultant belief of the person that this is the “truth” is a kind of benign psychosis

Indeed possible but can these not happen with or without a separate self?

-

Self can not be found because humans aren’t equipped with the ability to find it. Like looking for ultra violet light (I am quite impressed that my mind has come up with this one – it is a fighter, for sure)

But you do know uv light through a spectrophotometer. What instrument do you need to find self? Is there one? Can there be one if the object you are looking for is just not there? Can you find your car keys if you don't even have a car?

-

Realisation of no self may result in mental or emotional catastrophe (preventing ability to work and care for kids.)

We discussed this. Look again. Does there need to be a self to care for the kids and work?

-

This process or the result will alienate me from people I care about (see flaky point)
- This will prevent me from finding a loving relationship. Actually it kind of is already. Obsession with self-realisation is not understood by a significant percentage of the population. (Is it my fate to die alone surrounded by cats and Mooji videos…? Sob sob.)

All unsupported thoughts and contradictory. One thought takes to renunciation and another sobs for being alone.

-

This is a test which I am going to fail so better not even try – some anticipated shame and embarrassment there

There has to be an I for you to fail. Is there one?


I

mmediately after writing this I have had a realisation Sunil. There is nothing I can do to make this happen, is there? Nothing. Whether I post on LU, whether I follow your guidance, or not, whether I believe this, or fight it, or just give up. These things will either happen, or not. I have no influence over whether or when Truth is seen. There is nothing I can do to speed it up or trigger it. There never was and never will be.

Yes, the only thing you can do, are equipped with is direct experience. Use it to find out if there is a you who can or can not do?

I don’t know what to do with this. Holy cow, Batman.

Is there a batman? Is there a Kate?

Much love

[kgreenbank]

Your posts are like a cool shower. Thank you. More tomorrow. Or not! :)

[kgreenbank]

The thought response to your spectrophotomer point, "Well what if the instrument to see the self hasn't been invented yet" actually made laugh out loud. Preposterous nonsense. OMG.

[kvotski]

Nice absorption. You know the truth well in fact.

Valid question what if there has been no instrument invented. But know that the existential question is as old has human intelligence. Arjun asked Krishna to show him the one that is making all this happen. So he essentially showed him the universe. Nearly everything I have read and quite a lot just like you, comes down to not finding the answer to who is doing all of this, thinking, supernovae, Big Bang. They all rest in don't know.

In my humble opinion and that of many guides, the problem is in forming the question. Who, where and what imply a presence of something you are looking for. Mind takes it to be true. There must be something or why else am I looking for it? The right form of question should be is there something thinking the thoughts? Use that as your koan.

Good night.

[kgreenbank]

Does there have to be a who that is doing all this thinking? Why can it not be just another natural process like breathing, hearing or tasting?

It could be, yes.

Is there something thinking the thoughts?

Well that cut through the crap. You are spot on, the who? what? type questions were suggesting that there was, actually, something to look for.

No, there is nothing thinking the thoughts. I can't find anything. No thinker. They come and go, really like the cloud metaphor. There is a belief that they are directed, but this doesn't stand up to scrutiny. It's just another thought. And as you have pointed out, my thoughts are somewhat contradictory ;-) They wander off, fragment, change direction and subject. Sometimes thoughts are more structured, focussed, but most of the time they are drivel.
What now?

[kgreenbank]

by the way, to be clear, despite not finding a thinker, thoughts of "I am...." are still 100% hooking on to what's going on

[kvotski]

Next step will be the final questions.

before that lets look at "I am hooking on to whats going on". A metaphor may be I know smoking will kill me but i cant help but reach for one. I know there is no I but how else can I say I know without an I. We could be going around saying, knowing is going on, thinking happens, walking is done etc. But then you will really get the ire of your friends as a show off.

Is this hooking on a belief or seen through as a helpless habit?

[kgreenbank]

hmm. I think I am some way from final questions. this is more of an acceptance than a seeing of Truth. me, myself, I is very much still present. I am familiar with the direct experience of no-self. This is nothing like it. but there has been a dropping away of fear, doubts, resistance. I guess that's good. Like I said the other evening, there's a kind of deep knowing now that I have really no control over this process or of anything else. I don't know if that is progress or another mind game.

I guess it doesn't matter. I'll focus on your question for the rest of the day. Thank you.

[kvotski]

Yes, look and also answer what do you expect the seeing of Truth to feel like?

Very often, seekers are surprised to find out that it is a simple as this. You know like what Parsons says or Mooji points to? That's all she wrote, folks.

[kgreenbank]

Is this hooking on a belief or seen through as a helpless habit?

it's a belief. still. it's not been seen through. ok, more looking to do. feel free to set some homework :-)

[kgreenbank]

Yes, look and also answer what do you expect the seeing of Truth to feel like?

Very often, seekers are surprised to find out that it is a simple as this.

yes, good call, there is a definite expectation. previous experiences have been dramatic. Bang, no Kate. Complete absence. Emptiness. Oneness. Change in perception. I think I have been wanting (and therefore fearing) something quite dramatic, mystical even.

I will try to put aside expectations. All the same, this current experience is not it. What do I expect the seeing of Truth to feel like? I expect the false self to be properly seen though. And to feel This is IT. I know that feeling. This is not it.

Is that ok?