Looking for Guidance

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emptiness813
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Re: Looking for Guidance

Postby emptiness813 » Wed May 06, 2015 6:18 am

Hi Dirk,
Sorry for the delay. I wanted to be sure I gave your question the thought it deserved, because this opportunity to investigate the illusion of the separate self is extremely rare and valuable. I don’t want to end prematurely, yet neither do I want to drag it out unnecessarily.
The real question is if you think you are 'there'...
Do you? Is there any doubt whatsoever about seeing through the illusion of the separate self?
The upshot of the answer is yes and no. I believe there is some cognitive dissonance going on. If asked, and if I think about it, there is no doubt that the idea of a separate self is not only an illusion, but completely irrational. So there is no doubt, whatsoever, if I think about it. However, my ongoing internal thought “monologue” seems to be trundling along in the old paradigm as if “I” am “Bill”, a separate autonomous independent self that somehow controls and experiences things independently of the rest of the universe, as if that were even possible. So the cognitive integration I would expect from a revelation of that magnitude doesn’t seem to have “sunk in”.

However, as you pointed out, I may need to adjust my expectations and allow the “dream” to continue as a dream, and allow the cognitive integration to go at its own pace. So maybe you should give the set of questions, and depending on how I do with those, we can go from there.

With Gratitude,
Bill

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DirkPetz
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Re: Looking for Guidance

Postby DirkPetz » Wed May 06, 2015 3:52 pm

Hello Bill,

Thank you for your reply. I hear you.
If asked, and if I think about it, there is no doubt that the idea of a separate self is not only an illusion, but completely irrational. So there is no doubt, whatsoever, if I think about it. However, my ongoing internal thought “monologue” seems to be trundling along in the old paradigm as if “I” am “Bill”, a separate autonomous independent self that somehow controls and experiences things independently of the rest of the universe, as if that were even possible.
So do you think it would be fair to say that on direct investigation no self can be found, however it still appears to be - carried by content of thought. So there can be stories about self, but no actual separate self?
I may need to adjust my expectations and allow the “dream” to continue as a dream, and allow the cognitive integration to go at its own pace.
Here is a different take on expectations, which you might find useful:
“If you are expecting realization to be something other than what you are experiencing now then you will miss it. Realization is understanding that there is only THIS, whatever THIS is. All there is, is what is happening right now, and right now, and right now--WHATEVER that is. And all that is, is the One/God/Life/the Source expressing Itself as the infinite variety of forms that appear in the world. What you are looking for is already here, right here, right now. You are already IT. You cannot be not IT. Nothing and no one cannot be not IT. There is nothing that IT is not and there is nothing that is NOT it.
Please understand that when I say that, I mean it literally and I mean EVERYTHING--thoughts, feelings, emotions, people, animals, things, ideas, etc. ALL are IT appearing in these supposedly separate forms.
Realizing the nondual nature of all does not mean an end to those things that we think of as negative or bad or wrong. Those are labels that are applied to some of the forms that the Infinite expresses Itself as. Who says that you are suffering? What is it that is suffering? If there is nothing but the One, what then is it, that is suffering? Even the idea that you are a separate being, experiencing suffering, is merely the One experiencing Itself as a separate being experiencing suffering.
Again, please understand that I am not merely being flip or casual. The illusion that we will somehow experience the end of suffering, the end of negativity, the beginning of endless bliss, are deeply ingrained in some of us. I am being direct, because that is what it takes to see this. The willingness to give up EVERY concept, EVERY idea that there is anything other than THIS, that nondual realization will change ANYTHING or has any relevance.
You say that you thought nondual realization might bring an experience of love? It will, but not the love that most of us think of as love. It will be love in the form of a complete and utter knowing that whatever appears is okay, does not need to be changed, does not need to be fixed. It is complete and total surrender to whatever is happening (and YOU are not the one surrendering, because YOU will no longer exist). It is the complete and utter infatuation and fascination with Itself.” ~ Natalie Gray

Ah, and another one, for good measure :-)

"For whoever seeks God in some special way, will gain the way and lose God who is hidden in the way. But whoever seeks God without any special way, finds Him as He really is… and He is life itself." ~ Meister Eckhard

So maybe you should give the set of questions, and depending on how I do with those, we can go from there.
Sounds good. Here you go:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you seeit now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?


Do take your time with these

Very best wishes

Dirk

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emptiness813
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Re: Looking for Guidance

Postby emptiness813 » Mon May 11, 2015 5:07 am

Hi Dirk,
Sorry for the delay. I thought I posted several days ago, but apparently it did not go through. I apologize. I should have double checked afterwards.

I did give your question a lot of thought, because this opportunity to investigate the illusion of the separate self is extremely rare and valuable. I don’t want to end prematurely, yet neither do I want to drag it out unnecessarily.
The real question is if you think you are 'there'...
Do you? Is there any doubt whatsoever about seeing through the illusion of the separate self?
The upshot of the answer is yes and no. I believe there is some cognitive dissonance going on. If asked, and if I think about it, there is no doubt that the idea of a separate self is not only an illusion, but completely irrational. So there is no doubt, whatsoever, if I think about it. However, my ongoing internal thought “monologue” seems to be trundling along in the old paradigm as if “I” am “Bill”, a separate autonomous independent self that somehow controls and experiences things independently of the rest of the universe, as if that were even possible. So the cognitive integration I would expect from a revelation of that magnitude doesn’t seem to have “sunk in”.

However, as you pointed out, I may need to adjust my expectations and allow the “dream” to continue as a dream, and allow the cognitive integration to go at its own pace. So maybe you should give the set of questions, and depending on how I do with those, we can go from there.

With Gratitude,
Bill

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emptiness813
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:05 am

Re: Looking for Guidance

Postby emptiness813 » Mon May 11, 2015 5:09 am

Hi Dirk,
Sorry for the duplicate post. I missed the page 2 at the top of the screen and didn't see your reply. Will respond shortly.
Bill

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DirkPetz
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:05 pm

Re: Looking for Guidance

Postby DirkPetz » Sun May 17, 2015 2:35 am

Hey Bill,

All well?

Regards, Dirk

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emptiness813
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Re: Looking for Guidance

Postby emptiness813 » Sun May 24, 2015 4:18 am

Hi Dirk,

Sorry for the delay. I had a friend die from Stage 4 lung cancer, and then had to leave on a trip for work which was pretty much all-consuming. I really appreciate your patience. I have composed some answers to the questions you wrote. I also want to deeply thank you for your kindness of heart and incisive insights. They have been a great help. You are amazing. Thank you! Anyway, on to my answers, for what they are worth.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?


No, No
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
When reality is examined carefully, it consists of a vast array of ever-changing thoughts (visual and verbal), feelings, and sensations (sight, sound, touch, etc). However, when these thoughts, feelings and sensations subside, there is Something else that is impossible to name or characterize, and with it there is the clear and unmistakable sense of Being, or “I am”-ness. IT has been called many things. It may be (inadequately) described as pure Awareness, Subjectivity without an object, Love, God, Tao, Peace, but it is our True Self. Not separate from anything, the One True Being.

The separate self appears to arise when thought mistakenly identifies the True Self with a limited constellation of objects, usually the body-mind, or sometimes just the mind (ie thoughts). When the Subject is mistakenly identified with the body, a limited object that endures pain, suffers and dies, confusion and suffering arise. Often this limited self is seen as somehow autonomous, independent of the rest of the universe despite being inextricably connected with it, and somehow responsible for making independent decisions (although how an artificial, arbitrary, illusory boundary may be drawn within an indivisible whole and then the interior of that boundary somehow be independent from the rest of the universe is usually ignored by proponents of the separate self). It arises in early childhood from some combination of genetics and environment, perhaps because there was some evolutionary advantage for a brain to erroneously believe it has control of itself and its surroundings. This mistaken notion of the separate self has become embedded within the human culture and causes unimaginable suffering (illusory suffering, for there is nothing really to suffer, but it is suffering nonetheless).
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Honestly, I am not sure if it feels like anything. Maybe just peaceful, quiet, gentle acceptance. Maybe relief. Maybe pure bliss. In truth, it is unconditional happiness available whenever I care to take the time to see it. An amazing gift, pure Grace. It is truly the Pearl of great price, as Christ put it, or Nirvana in Buddhist terms, or the Atman as the Hindus call it. Certainly there have been spiritual experiences that have come and gone, but our True Nature never changes. As Ramana put it, “The Real must always be Real”. And so it Is. Pure Nothingness, never changing for there is nothing to change. It is as it is, beyond time and beyond space. Words fail here. I like the way Wittgenstein put it at the end of the Tractatus: ”Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.”
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Meditation has been invaluable to me here. Perhaps initially it was simply the determination to make no assumptions and try to see reality as it is. Take nothing for granted and look for myself.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Decision, free will, choice and control are all concepts without underlying substance or reality. Manifestation is endlessly evolving. As the Buddha said, “Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof.” The manifestation unfolds spontaneously and mysteriously. How it “works”, I do not know. The illusory self cannot have responsibilities, for how can something that doesn’t exist be responsible for anything? Maybe a good example is how I met my wife. Several years ago I attended a Halloween party in my building, dressed as a monk of course. When I arrived, I was immediately mesmerized by a woman who was (at least to me) the most beautiful woman in the room. Because I had recently been reading the Tao Te Ching, I decided to do a real-life experiment based on its teachings (at least as I understood them). I decided I was going to do absolutely nothing, or at least as little as possible, and if the Universe wanted me to meet his woman, then I would, and if not, then I wouldn't. But I was going to make no efforts either way, and simply sat down in a chair and did nothing. I spoke to no one and was just quiet. Eventually, this woman I had initially spotted walked over to me and initiated a conversation. I asked her for her phone number, managed to memorize it and remember it until I got home from the party, called her the next day, began dating, eventually married, and we have been together ever since. I am sure that if I had tried to "control" the situation and forced myself on her, I would have been brushed aside. I was not even in her league, and still am not. Simply a lucky man whom the Universe decided to bless that night, and because I wasn't trying to somehow autonomously control what is impossible to control, everything worked out amazingly. This experience has been replicated many, many times in my life. As the Tao Te Ching says, "Do Nothing, and Nothing Remains Undone."

6) Anything to add?


You all are providing an amazing service. Thank you.

Bill

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DirkPetz
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Re: Looking for Guidance

Postby DirkPetz » Sun May 24, 2015 5:00 pm

Hello Bill,

Nice to hear from you again - and thank you for your answers.

Nice 'love story' - I am, too, counting my blessings in that respect... :-) One could of course argue that 'doing nothing' was 'doing something', find infinite other situations where apparent actions of Bill were called for (and happened) - equally constituting 'the will of the universe' - or indeed question the very notion of the universe having a will... But I 'get it', and sounds all clear to me...

I will now ask some colleagues to have a look at our conversation to see if we missed anything - and then get back to you.

Best regards.

Dirk

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DirkPetz
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Re: Looking for Guidance

Postby DirkPetz » Sun May 24, 2015 8:03 pm

Hi Bill,

Look out for my private message!

Dirk

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DirkPetz
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Re: Looking for Guidance

Postby DirkPetz » Mon May 25, 2015 1:22 am

Hello Bill,

Did you receive a private message from me? I have a feeling it might be stuck in my out-box...

Dirk


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