I am looking for a guide...

[itstopshere]

I cannot find a process of thinking. There are only thoughts following one another randomly. Even if I try to control the thoughts, random thoughts might still pop up. I might be able to control a limited number of thoughts, but there are still always thoughts that I do not control.

Is that true?
Is there a little man inside your head picking on thought over another?
What does it mean to control thoughts? Who controls? Another thought, coming out of nowhere?

This is a new idea for me, but ultimately I think I've been tricking myself into believing that I'm "doing thinking."

Believing is a start, but we have to see it ;-) Take your time with it. You cannot expect to just look for a second and be done :-)

So maybe the fact that I can choose doesn't mean that there is a separate self?

Let's not do logical deduction. Just looking. :-)

I do feel that I can find choice within a limited boundary that is defined by my environment. So, for example, when I pick my clothes in the morning I could choose a skirt or a pair of jeans. Since both are in my closet, they are both possibilities (and I can choose between). I feel that this last answer is related to your statement above that said "There are individuals, people, in control in some sense, but they just depend on their environment."

I cannot imagine you actually looked. You just imagined a situation now. That's thinking.
What we need to do is be in the situation and then be honest with ourselves about what is happening. By honest I don't mean in the sense of 'not lying', but in the sense of 'really looking without any assumptions or thinking we know the answer.'
When you "choose", where is the thought to choose the one over the other coming from?
Who is "picking" that thought? And when you then decide to not follow that thought but another thought, is that not just another thought coming up saying it's better to do X instead of Y? Can you find the control mechanism of thought, the you steering thoughts? The little man inside your head?
Look! Don't give me an answer right now. Just live life a little, and then come back when you have looked at what happens. ;-)

[Eliz]

Thanks for the response. :) I'm going to step away and look for a bit at the points you made. I'll be back tomorrow with an update.

[Eliz]

xxxx

Thanks, itstopshere. I spent some time trying to observe what happens in different situations when I bring up your questions. Here's what I found... First, I think I needed to step away because my ego was fighting to answer. I had to step away and sneak up on the ego when it was relaxed (and not expecting it). Now I believe that my responses are a bit more based on "looking" and "feeling" rather than "thinking."

Is that true?
Is there a little man inside your head picking on thought over another?
What does it mean to control thoughts? Who controls? Another thought, coming out of nowhere?

I don't know who controls the thought. There is no little man though. :) And I'm not sure where the thoughts come from when they pop up. They seem to come from nowhere.

Let's not do logical deduction. Just looking. :-)

Good point! ;-)

Who is "picking" that thought? And when you then decide to not follow that thought but another thought, is that not just another thought coming up saying it's better to do X instead of Y? Can you find the control mechanism of thought, the you steering thoughts? The little man inside your head?
Look! Don't give me an answer right now. Just live life a little, and then come back when you have looked at what happens. ;-)

I see now how I was thinking about this instead of looking! ;-) When I look, I don't know who is "picking" the thought. It just appears. When I start to choose my clothes in the morning, the answer just pops up. There is no one in charge of it. For example, this morning when I was confronted with "skirt" or "jeans" something said "skirt." So that was the choice. I cannot find the control mechanism or the "little man" in my head. The thoughts and the choice just seem to appear... like conditioned responses.

[itstopshere]

Dear Eliz,

Very good! :-) Good looking.

So if I am understanding you correctly, you say that

1. Thoughts come out of nowhere.
2. There is no process of thinking.
3. There is no actual process of choice happening. Choices appear as thoughts.

Do you agree with these? Is there any hesitation anywhere?

[Eliz]

Thanks for the note, itstopshere. :)

Yes, I agree with all three of those statements. I don't have any hesitation about that. When I stop trying to "think," those statements are very clear.

[itstopshere]

Can you "try" to think? :-)

So, tell me, having seen all of this now, what is Eliz? Is there even an Eliz left? Does the label Eliz still make sense outside of just practical convention?

[Eliz]

Can you "try" to think? :-)

Haha. Good point! ;-)

So, tell me, having seen all of this now, what is Eliz? Is there even an Eliz left? Does the label Eliz still make sense outside of just practical convention?

I would say that Eliz is simply a label. It is a label that the physical world uses to relate to this body. But in reality is there no Eliz... and there never was. When I look, it appears that the mind is conditioned to separate "mine" from "theirs" and attach the label of "mine" to Eliz. Does that make sense?

[itstopshere]

Sure. :-)

• So, if this body-mind does not truly choose anything, do you think it would be reasonable to liken it to a flowing river? The river does not choose. It flows downstream, left to right, around a rock, hitting a fallen tree, it flows on. Does that sound like an accurate description for a person too?
• If not, how is it different?
• And how must it logically be for 'others'?
• Is life in any way different from a show, a big act? If there's no choice, and this is just life happening, clearly life is "steering" every person or other life-form on this planet. Quite fascinating, that, isn't it?

[Eliz]

Thanks for the response, itstopshere. :)

So, if this body-mind does not truly choose anything, do you think it would be reasonable to liken it to a flowing river? The river does not choose. It flows downstream, left to right, around a rock, hitting a fallen tree, it flows on. Does that sound like an accurate description for a person too?
If not, how is it different?

Yes, I think that is an accurate description. I like that analogy a lot.

And how must it logically be for 'others'?

I'm not sure that I understand this question. Does "others" mean "other humans"? Or does it mean analogies other than the flowing river? Sorry I didn't understand this question. :)

Is life in any way different from a show, a big act? If there's no choice, and this is just life happening, clearly life is "steering" every person or other life-form on this planet. Quite fascinating, that, isn't it?

Yes, this is very interesting! I largely agree with this description now. I have a quick question though (...maybe my ego is appearing again) :) Does this assume that free will does not exist? Or does it assume that free will is a function of conditioned responses over time? (in other words, what appears to be free will is really the human acting based on conditioned responses?). Or am I missing this?

[itstopshere]

Thank you for that reply Eliz, and sorry for the confusion.
With 'others' I was indeed referring to 'other people.'

Yes, this is very interesting! I largely agree with this description now. I have a quick question though (...maybe my ego is appearing again) :) Does this assume that free will does not exist?

This is some good stuff, and I'd like you to give me the answer. What is true in your experience?

Or does it assume that free will is a function of conditioned responses over time?

If no person is choosing, and everything is just "unfolding", what is this thing called "conditioning" really?
In other words, how is a term like "conditioning" still relevant or useful outside a context of people who have a choice?

[Eliz]

Thanks, itstopshere!

Thank you for that reply Eliz, and sorry for the confusion.
With 'others' I was indeed referring to 'other people.'

Thanks for the clarification. :) Sorry I misunderstood. I don't believe that I can say how it would "logically" be for others. The river is just itself for everyone. I'm realizing that logic isn't part of the equation here.

This is some good stuff, and I'd like you to give me the answer. What is true in your experience?

When I read this, I can immediately see my ego jumping up to say "free will does exist." My mind wants very much to believe in it. Yet, when I look, I do not think it exists. There are reactions by humans, but that doesn't mean that it is complete free will. I believe that I can see clearly here now, but it will take some time to adjust to this concept.

If no person is choosing, and everything is just "unfolding", what is this thing called "conditioning" really?
In other words, how is a term like "conditioning" still relevant or useful outside a context of people who have a choice?

That's a good question. The term probably isn't very useful here. ;)

[itstopshere]

Cool. So how does it feel?

[Eliz]

It feels very calm actually... I feel a bit detached (but not in a negative way). It also feels as though I've always known this but I forgot it somehow along the way.

Thank you so very much for taking the time to show me where to look! You picked up on where I was stuck almost immediately. Before our discussions started, I felt as though I was lost and the ego was in charge. :)

[itstopshere]

:)

Let's do a last check. Please answer these:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[Eliz]

Thanks for the response. Yes, let's definitely do a last check to make sure. :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is not separate self - and there never was. It was an illusion that I have been carrying around for a long time. It's much lighter without that illusion now.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of the separate self is the thought that "I" am separate from everything else and that "I" can control things around me. In my own experience, this is directly linked to the ego. I can now see when my ego is appearing more clearly. It's as though I can watch the ego create the conditions for a separate self in my mind. The ego seems to put a very big fight... it doesn't want to die. :) A big part of my struggle with this process was putting the ego aside so I could "feel" and "see" instead of "thinking."

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

The feeling is the biggest difference for me between now and before our dialogue. When we started our discussions, I "knew" that there wasn't a self from "thinking". In other words, I could intellectually and rationally understand it. Now, I feel and see that there is no self. It's a much more accepting and calm state. I feel like I am able to put the ego aside now. Before I felt like the ego was on center stage trying to make me "think" through this instead of feeling or seeing.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

The way that you kept reminding me to look and feel instead of "think" about it. Until now, I have only been "thinking" about no-self. Through our discussions, I was able to relax into feeling and seeing instead. It's a much clearer and more relaxed state. I don't feel as though there is a problem to solve anymore.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Things happen like a river flows... they happen as they do. There is no self in control and no manager making decisions. Life is just moving forward and this body (and these thoughts) are part of that process.

6) Anything to add?

Thank you so much for your time and help, itstopshere. You are very kind to spend this time with me. :)










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