Looking for the truth..

[moondog]

Hi Theo,

Thanks for the update.

Remember 'direct experience' is nothing special, it's ordinary, everyday awareness and not something you need to try and get into. Awareness notices, no need for specific verbal questions like 'who or what is looking'. Just notice whether there is any self-entity doing anything, or (as when you looked at hearing) does it all just happen?

Looking forward to hearing from you when you're ready

Pete x

[ConfusedApe]

Hi Pete,

I think I had an interesting moment of clarity today. It didn't come from the seeing exercise, I still am finding it difficult to see the truth of that situation.

It happened during my usual meditation practice. I felt like I suddenly really saw thought for what it was. It wasn't an intellectual understanding of thought not being 'me', but I felt I actually could 'see' thoughts in a way that made it feel like 'I' couldn't be them, like I was undoubtably separate from thoughts. It really felt like looking at what I previously thought to be 'I' and knowing that it couldn't possibly exist. Thoughts rushed back quickly thereafter and the feeling was lost.

I'll continue with the direct experience exercises you've mentioned above, just thought this was interesting and was wondering if you had any thoughts about it.

- T

[moondog]

Hi Theo,

I think I had an interesting moment of clarity today. It didn't come from the seeing exercise, I still am finding it difficult to see the truth of that situation.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'the truth of that situation'. You may still be over complicating this by expecting to find something special when you do these exercises. If so, that won't work. All I want you to do is simply look to see whether any separate self, any I/me/mine, can be found in your experience when seeing, hearing, touching, tasting and smelling. No more than that. No magic.

It happened during my usual meditation practice. I felt like I suddenly really saw thought for what it was. It wasn't an intellectual understanding of thought not being 'me', but I felt I actually could 'see' thoughts in a way that made it feel like 'I' couldn't be them, like I was undoubtably separate from thoughts. It really felt like looking at what I previously thought to be 'I' and knowing that it couldn't possibly exist. Thoughts rushed back quickly thereafter and the feeling was lost[

Thanks for telling me about that. It really does sound very encouraging. The aim of this process is simply to point you to look into every possible area of 'your' experience to see if a separate self can be found there. Once it's clearly seen and accepted that there's no self-entity to be found, except as an idea produced by thinking, that's it, job done. As guide I point you to look in each area in turn. Looking at sense arisings is still work in progress and I want you to continue to look to see whether any seer, hearer etc. can be found there, bearing in mind my comments above.

However, given what you say about your experience with thinking, I'd like to jump forward and ask you to answer the following:

Not from what you think, but from direct experience, please say:

Where do thoughts come from?

Are you in control of them?

Can you stop a thought from coming?

Can you stop it in the middle?

Do you know what the next thought will be?

Is 'I' a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

Can a thought think?

Pete x

[ConfusedApe]

Thanks for your thoughts Pete. It feel like progress is being made. I feel closer to the truth, and your insistence that no special effort is required makes sense to me. No magic, just seeing what was always there to be seen, but obscured by thoughts and a story.

Not from what you think, but from direct experience, please say:

Where do thoughts come from?

No idea, they just appear seemingly out of nowhere without warning. Listening to them closely enough shows that they can be completely incoherent and all over the place.

Are you in control of them?

It feels like there is an I that creeps in and thinks "Oh look I'm thinking", but that's just another thought sneaking in from behind that awareness didn't notice.

Can you stop a thought from coming?

Definitely not.

Can you stop it in the middle?

Becoming aware of the thought seems to stop it in some way, like it doesn't want to be examined closely. The brain tries to sneak in another thought afterwards, but the initial thought seems to die as soon as awareness is focused on it.

Do you know what the next thought will be?

Definitely not.

Is 'I' a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

I am tempted to say no, but it does feel like it is different. It seems to produce a feeling, a feeling of self. The thought of a table, or a bottle, or a computer screen doesn't bring up the same feeling.

Can a thought think?

No, a thought cannot think. If it could, it would be an endless chain of thoughts, each thought thinking its own thought. A brain can produce thoughts, and consciousness can either focus on the existence of the thought, or get lost in the content of the thought. When the latter happens, that's where the feeling of self comes from.

[moondog]

Hi Theo,

Thanks for your thoughts Pete. It feel like progress is being made. I feel closer to the truth, and your insistence that no special effort is required makes sense to me. No magic, just seeing what was always there to be seen, but obscured by thoughts and a story.

That's good to hear Theo. Keep looking along the lines that I've described and let me have your answers on the senses when you're done.

I can see from your responses around thoughts and thinking that you've clearly seen that there's no 'you', no separate self doing anything or present at all.

...they just appear seemingly out of nowhere without warning. Listening to them closely enough shows that they can be completely incoherent and all over the place.

Exactly so.

It feels like there is an I that creeps in and thinks "Oh look I'm thinking", but that's just another thought sneaking in from behind that awareness didn't notice.

Nice observing. It's good that you can see that from experience.

Becoming aware of the thought seems to stop it in some way, like it doesn't want to be examined closely. The brain tries to sneak in another thought afterwards, but the initial thought seems to die as soon as awareness is focused on it.

Strange isn't it that as soon as a thought is subjected to the light of awareness, thinking just stops. It's clearly not as if any 'I' does anything; it just all seems to happen spontaneously.

I am tempted to say no, but it does feel like it is different. It seems to produce a feeling, a feeling of self. The thought of a table, or a bottle, or a computer screen doesn't bring up the same feeling.

True. But can you see that when a mere thought, even if it's an I-thought, becomes 'welded' to a bodily feeling, it seems to give it an extra strength that (usually anyway) a table or bottle doesn't have. Can you see that when you look at a thought on its own, not as if welded to a feeling, even an I-thought, it's no different to any other thought; it's just a thought, nothing else.

No, a thought cannot think. If it could, it would be an endless chain of thoughts, each thought thinking its own thought. A brain can produce thoughts, and consciousness can either focus on the existence of the thought, or get lost in the content of the thought. When the latter happens, that's where the feeling of self comes from.

Nicely put.

So that went well. Let's move on to actions - doing and controlling - to see if a separate self can be found there:

It's clear that when we breathe, blink, digest food etc. there's no 'I' involved, but how is it for you when walking?

How is it when doing various everyday things like say, brushing your teeth, washing up, that kind of thing? Try all kinds of everyday stuff.

Is there any 'I' there for any of these actions, or are they just like 'automatic'?


Nice work Theo.


Pete x

[ConfusedApe]

Hi Pete,

Thanks for your replies. I haven't had a great deal of time to consider your questions today, and I don't want to rush my experiencing of them, so I'll spend today and tomorrow observing actions and I'll answer your questions properly tomorrow.

- T

[moondog]

Hi Theo,

No problem. Thanks for letting me know.

Looking forward to seeing your replies tomorrow.

Pete x

[ConfusedApe]

Hi Pete,

My apologies for the delayed response.

It's clear that when we breathe, blink, digest food etc. there's no 'I' involved, but how is it for you when walking?

When walking it feels like there is an 'I' doing the walking at first, but upon closer looking this doesn't make much sense. The feeling 'I' just comes from a thought as we established before. 'I' don't walk, 'I' don't even know 'how' to walk. The I that I think I am doesn't know how to move the body that way, it just happens.

How is it when doing various everyday things like say, brushing your teeth, washing up, that kind of thing? Try all kinds of everyday stuff.

Is there any 'I' there for any of these actions, or are they just like 'automatic'?

I investigated this while going for a run over the weekend. The pain of running made this lack of an 'I' especially obvious. When not really paying attention, it seems like the 'I' was doing the running and feeling the pain, but when looking closely it was obvious that the pain was just happening, it didn't make sense for anyone to own it. Through these experiences it seems more and more likely that the 'self' that I think I am is just the feeling I get when I'm not paying enough attention. When awareness is really tuned into the presence, the illusion drops away.

[moondog]

Hi Theo,

When walking it feels like there is an 'I' doing the walking at first, but upon closer looking this doesn't make much sense. The feeling 'I' just comes from a thought as we established before. 'I' don't walk, 'I' don't even know 'how' to walk. The I that I think I am doesn't know how to move the body that way, it just happens.

Excellent - no 'I' to be found in walking.

I investigated this while going for a run over the weekend. The pain of running made this lack of an 'I' especially obvious. When not really paying attention, it seems like the 'I' was doing the running and feeling the pain, but when looking closely it was obvious that the pain was just happening, it didn't make sense for anyone to own it. Through these experiences it seems more and more likely that the 'self' that I think I am is just the feeling I get when I'm not paying enough attention. When awareness is really tuned into the presence, the illusion drops away.

Again, good, no 'I' to be found in doing.

You say through these experiences it seems more and more likely that the 'self' that I think I am is just the feeling I get when I'm not paying enough attention. But is even that something you can see in direct experience, or is it too just another thought? Isn't it simply that when you look there's no self to be found, no more, no less? It's simple, no need to complicate it.

Anyway, good stuff. I'm really pleased that you're getting this Theo. Now let's continue along the same lines by looking at deciding and choosing. There's quite an overlap with actions and control but it's useful to look more closely at what happens (and doesn't happen) when decisions/choices are made.

Raise your right arm (or don’t). In that process of raising the right arm (or not), a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn’t). But can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea 'I just chose to (not) raise my right arm' come after the event itself?

There's one question left over from my earlier post (aside from the ones on senses and sensing which we'll return to soon). Can you answer that too please. Here it is:

Can you see that when a mere thought, even if it's an I-thought, becomes 'welded' to a bodily feeling, it seems to give it an extra strength that (usually anyway) a table or bottle doesn't have. Can you see that when you look at a thought on its own, not as if welded to a feeling, even an I-thought, it's no different to any other thought; it's just a thought, nothing else.

Pete x

[ConfusedApe]

Raise your right arm (or don’t). In that process of raising the right arm (or not), a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn’t). But can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea 'I just chose to (not) raise my right arm' come after the event itself?

When looking closely, it's obvious that there isn't a chooser. I don't know why I choose to raise my arm after 5 seconds, rather than raising it straight away, or not raising it at all. Thoughts then rush in to justify why the decision was made, but these happen after the fact and aren't of any substance. It's fairly clear that I have no real idea of why I choose anything.

Can you see that when a mere thought, even if it's an I-thought, becomes 'welded' to a bodily feeling, it seems to give it an extra strength that (usually anyway) a table or bottle doesn't have. Can you see that when you look at a thought on its own, not as if welded to a feeling, even an I-thought, it's no different to any other thought; it's just a thought, nothing else.

Yes, I can see this. The 'I' feeling is a feeling that's attached to some (most?) thoughts. Other feelings can be attached to thoughts in this way too. The recalling of an embarrassing moment is 'welded' to a feeling of shame. Feelings about the past and the future are 'welded' to a feeling of self.

[moondog]

Hi Theo,

When looking closely, it's obvious that there isn't a chooser. I don't know why I choose to raise my arm after 5 seconds, rather than raising it straight away, or not raising it at all. Thoughts then rush in to justify why the decision was made, but these happen after the fact and aren't of any substance. It's fairly clear that I have no real idea of why I choose anything.

In fact, just to be absolutely clear on this, from what you say, 'you' don't choose anything do you, because there's no 'you' doing any choosing is there?

Can you see that when a mere thought, even if it's an I-thought, becomes 'welded' to a bodily feeling, it seems to give it an extra strength that (usually anyway) a table or bottle doesn't have. Can you see that when you look at a thought on its own, not as if welded to a feeling, even an I-thought, it's no different to any other thought; it's just a thought, nothing else.

Yes, I can see this. The 'I' feeling is a feeling that's attached to some (most?) thoughts. Other feelings can be attached to thoughts in this way too. The recalling of an embarrassing moment is 'welded' to a feeling of shame. Feelings about the past and the future are 'welded' to a feeling of self.

Spot on Theo. Good stuff.

Just one question left over from my last post:

You say through these experiences it seems more and more likely that the 'self' that I think I am is just the feeling I get when I'm not paying enough attention. But is even that something you can see in direct experience, or is it too just another thought? Isn't it simply that when you look there's no self to be found, no more, no less? It's simple, no need to complicate it.

So ok, this is going really well. So far it seems clear that you can see that there's just no separate self present in thinking, doing, controlling, deciding or choosing. That brings us to the body, so let's look to see whether there's a self to be found in or as the body:

Solely from experience:

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

I have to go into hospital tomorrow (Wednesday) just for the day for a procedure, so I'll be well out of it for the day. All being well, I should be ok to reply to your replies on Thursday. So, you've got a bit more time to reply if you want. By all means let me have your latest findings on whether you can find a separate self in each of the senses as well if that works for you.

Pete x

[ConfusedApe]

You say through these experiences it seems more and more likely that the 'self' that I think I am is just the feeling I get when I'm not paying enough attention. But is even that something you can see in direct experience, or is it too just another thought? Isn't it simply that when you look there's no self to be found, no more, no less? It's simple, no need to complicate it.

Yes, this is definitely just a thought. I think it's a true thought, in that when focus is not directed in the right direction, the self happens. But still certainly a thought and product of the mind.

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

No, conciousness experiences sensations and thoughts. A thought doesn't feel like anything in the body. A thought is an appearance in conciousness, and the feeling of having a body is also in conciousness.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

Yes. The feeling of having a body is just a set of sensations. I am unable to 'feel' my hands in any complete sense, all I can feel is sensations coming from an area where I know my hands to be.

I hope your procedure is not serious and goes well for you. Please don't feel the need to rush back, whenever you're ready is completely fine.

[moondog]

Hi Theo,

Thanks for you good wishes. The procedure went well.

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

No, conciousness experiences sensations and thoughts. A thought doesn't feel like anything in the body. A thought is an appearance in conciousness, and the feeling of having a body is also in conciousness.

You got it.

The feeling of having a body is just a set of sensations. I am unable to 'feel' my hands in any complete sense, all I can feel is sensations coming from an area where I know my hands to be.

No problem at all for you in seeing that there's no separate self as or in what we label the 'body'. Excellent.

One outstanding questions from my earlier post for you to answer please Theo:

In fact, just to be absolutely clear on this, from what you say, 'you' don't choose anything do you, because there's no 'you' doing any choosing is there?

So, now to return to the senses and sensing. Now that you've been able to see clearly that there's just simply no separate self present or doing anything in every other aspect of experience, once more please let me have your response to these exercises on looking for a separate self in sense arisings:

Please tell me, not at all from what thinking is saying, but solely from looking in 'your' direct experience, when looking at a tree, an orange, out of the window or whatever, can you find a 'you', a self-entity, present actually doing the seeing? If so, tell me what it looks like and how it does it.

Please do the same with each of the other four senses and let me know whether you can find an experiencer, or is there just hearing, tasting, touching and smelling, as well just seeing.

Also can you find any separation/distinction between seeing and the object that's been seen? The same goes for hearing, touching, tasting and smelling.

Pete x

[ConfusedApe]

Hi Pete, glad to hear your procedure went well!

In fact, just to be absolutely clear on this, from what you say, 'you' don't choose anything do you, because there's no 'you' doing any choosing is there?

No there is no me to do any choosing, just choices being chosen.

So, now to return to the senses and sensing. Now that you've been able to see clearly that there's just simply no separate self present or doing anything in every other aspect of experience, once more please let me have your response to these exercises on looking for a separate self in sense arisings:

Please tell me, not at all from what thinking is saying, but solely from looking in 'your' direct experience, when looking at a tree, an orange, out of the window or whatever, can you find a 'you', a self-entity, present actually doing the seeing? If so, tell me what it looks like and how it does it.

No, there is no 'me' doing the seeing, just seeing. How could there be an I to do seeing? Eyes see, brains process what eyes see, but there isn't anything controlling this process. Thoughts are what feel like I, but thoughts have no idea how to see, or taste, or touch or smell.

Please do the same with each of the other four senses and let me know whether you can find an experiencer, or is there just hearing, tasting, touching and smelling, as well just seeing.

Also can you find any separation/distinction between seeing and the object that's been seen? The same goes for hearing, touching, tasting and smelling.

There seems to be a difference, but this is just a feeling. The object itself and the act of seeing, hearing, touching tasting and smelling are just appearances in conciousness. It doesn't make sense for 'I' to be one of them but not the other.

Pete, I won't be able to reply much over the weekend, but I'll get back to your questions first thing next week.

- Theo

[moondog]

Hi Theo,

No there is no me to do any choosing, just choices being chosen.

Good.

No, there is no 'me' doing the seeing, just seeing. How could there be an I to do seeing? Eyes see, brains process what eyes see, but there isn't anything controlling this process. Thoughts are what feel like I, but thoughts have no idea how to see, or taste, or touch or smell.

That's great. You clearly see that.

There seems to be a difference, but this is just a feeling. The object itself and the act of seeing, hearing, touching tasting and smelling are just appearances in consciousness. It doesn't make sense for 'I' to be one of them but not the other.

Splendid. But, as always, I just want to be absolutely sure before moving on. I know you say that it makes no sense for there to be an 'I' seeing, hearing etc, but can you specifically confirm that, having simply looked at the raw experiencing of each of seeing and the other four senses, you've not been able to find a trace of a separate self present or doing anything.

So, now you've looked and looked everywhere there is to look in direct experience and (subject to your answer above) you haven't been able to find even a trace of a self-entity lurking anywhere. But, before we review and revisit any areas that might be needed, let's just look from a different perspective:

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

What experiences?

What thinks?

What does?

What is aware?

Pete, I won't be able to reply much over the weekend, but I'll get back to your questions first thing next week.

No problem Theo. I'm going away for a couple of days to recuperate. I'll be back on Monday and will respond to your replies then. Have a good weekend.

Pete x