Another guide please

[JonathanR]

Hi Mark,

Great post. Thank you. Hope you are well too?

Do not be too concerned about what thoughts have to say but it's good to notice them when they appear.

. I notice that thought does a lot of commentary: sometimes predicting when the hand is going to be lifted, sometimes getting excited as in 'any second now'!
However, despite all this thought involvement, what I really notice is that I could not 'predict' or tell when the exact moment of the arm lifting would occur.
I could not notice when the exact point of choice was made., the arm lifted when it wanted to, seemingly all by itself.

That's great! Good looking.

I did not find a 'decision being made' moment - the city came to mind automatically as if from nowhere.

Yes.

I was doing a yoga practice and I was aware of the yoga practice flowing, from one posture to another, just happening by itself - this was really clear, the point to come out of a posture - no decider doing that. The time taken to hold the posture? no decider doing that. That's what I mean by it just flowed.

Really good. I suspect yoga provides an excellent opportunity for looking.

So, would you say that that this quality of things just flowing applies to the whole of life, a bit like a rollercoaster ride? It's all just happening?

Love

Jon.

[marka]

Hi Jon,

Do not be too concerned about what thoughts have to say but it's good to notice them when they appear.

sure, ok.

So, would you say that that this quality of things just flowing applies to the whole of life, a bit like a rollercoaster ride? It's all just happening?

Yes! I would absolutely say that.
And all those times I really thought I had some sort of control over things, like getting jobs, taking different directions in life, but in reality no control at all -it all just happened!
This is quite strange to think like this. Or to realise this. Life just happens, there cannot possibly be a 'me' ..... if there was it would be totally redundant!
and, I'm not even sure there has been a 'me' actualy trying to tke the credit for making all these decisions - I simply think it has been assumed that there is a me and that of course it is in control, making decisions, choosing directions,
None of that has been happening at all!

really good talking Jon,
love Mark

[JonathanR]

Hi Mark,

Likewise. really good talking

You have reached a point at which I'd like to ask you six quite significant questions. Then, once we have looked at your answers and seen what has come from those, I'd like to invite the other guides to take a look at this thread too. Sometimes they offer additional useful questions.

But before we do this, do you have any doubts left about anything we have discussed so far? We can go through anything you like. Just let me know.

If you don't have unresolved concerns we could go on tho the six questions, in which case let me know if you are ready for them.

All the best,

Jon

[marka]

Hi Jon,

Don't think I have any doubts but let me ponder this overnight

Thanks, Mark

[marka]

Have given it some thought Jon and it comes to this:

I don't think I have actually realised anything!

It might be that that expectation was slightly out, that I was expecting something deeply profound or to be in direct experience 100% of the time, but let me explain what I mean a bit more:

I am much more aware of direct experience, that it is the only true experience.
I am much more likely to recognize thought stories and not believe them as truth.
I recognise there is no doer and no one making things happen, not even anyone at the helm making decisions......

But is that THE realisation?
I have read that people say the 'shift' is subtle, I say that it is entirely gentle!

I am open to the possibility that there may have been a shift based on the fact that I do notice much more now, don't get sucked into stories, and when I do I recognise them as such quite quickly.Also seem calmer than normal, a certain relaxed detachment toward life.

How much of this simply coincides with the fact that I have been doing a lot of yoga?!

What do you make of it Jon, the questions do you think?

Love,
Mark

[JonathanR]

Hi Mark,

I don't think I have actually realised anything!

It might be that that expectation was slightly out, that I was expecting something deeply profound or to be in direct experience 100% of the time, but let me explain what I mean a bit more:

I am much more aware of direct experience, that it is the only true experience.
I am much more likely to recognize thought stories and not believe them as truth.
I recognise there is no doer and no one making things happen, not even anyone at the helm making decisions......

But is that THE realisation?
I have read that people say the 'shift' is subtle, I say that it is entirely gentle!

I am open to the possibility that there may have been a shift based on the fact that I do notice much more now, don't get sucked into stories, and when I do I recognise them as such quite quickly.Also seem calmer than normal, a certain relaxed detachment toward life.

How much of this simply coincides with the fact that I have been doing a lot of yoga?!

What do you make of it Jon, the questions do you think?

The yoga may well have helped in terms of bodily awareness and helping in terms of calmness. The bonus of being able to experience the body quite directly and to be able to see thoughts arise and pass away without reacting to them...that's very helpful. Speaking personally, I do a lot of painting and it was while I was being guided that I noticed that sometimes 'self' is completely forgotten during the task of concentrating and that 'normal' thinking is attenuated and that to a certain extent the painting 'does itself'. That fell into place. Painting was a useful activity. Looks like yoga has done something similar for you. It looks to me that it allowed you to see really clearly how thoughts operate.

I am much more aware of direct experience, that it is the only true experience.
I am much more likely to recognize thought stories and not believe them as truth.
I recognise there is no doer and no one making things happen, not even anyone at the helm making decisions......

But is that THE realisation?

It's important that you answer this question yourself. You seem very clear to me but it is for you to decide.

'Realisation' like almost any other word for it, can seem quite loaded. Sometimes people say 'Insight' (and that can get loaded with odd meanings too). And there can be an idea that some big experience, with fireworks should be expected. People often miss the Gate becasue of this. This realisation is nothing if not subtle and yet its ramifications can be quite profound. Many people go through the gate and then spend time discovering that many assumptions they made about 'the way things are' gradually fall away and it all starts with recognising the role of thoughts and that 'self', 'choosing' and 'deciding' are illusory.

I have watched you become more and more clear on essentials, especially in the last two weeks. But if you'd like to talk further of course we can do this.


Love,

Jon.

[marka]

Hi Jon,

thanks for such a detailed response.

But is that THE realisation?
It's important that you answer this question yourself. You seem very clear to me but it is for you to decide.

I am ready for the questions Jon.

I think I could go on and on doubting or wondering.
My answers to the questions will demonstrate the truth!

There are certainly changes within me and yes, they have intensified over the past 2 weeks.

Ask away!

thanks,
Love Mark

[JonathanR]

Hi Mark,

Cool! OK. Here goes. I'll split these into two lots of three to make it more manageable.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2)Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3)How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.



Love,

Jon.

[marka]

hi Jon,

these are my answers to the first 3:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Not a separate entity, no. No separate self.
There never was.

2)Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of the separate self begins (and ends) in the mind - in thoughts. It starts from the moment you are born (i.e. as soon as your parents/caregiver give you a name and start pointing at you and repeating the name!)
How it works? Well, right back in the beginning, say you get the notion that you are a 'something' (this is highly likely from all the 'teaching' your parents are giving you) and that you exist and have a body to prove it .....
potentially, all your thoughts do at this early stage is to accept the premise that you exist (i.e. the creation of a belief) and run a perfectly 'normal', seemingly rational, response to this belief.
It is, however, this belief that is crucial - this means that the assumption that there is a separate self is never really questioned and instead is reinforced as being true day by day, moment by moment.
Thought will constantly run an inner dialogue, referring to a 'me', an 'I' or a 'mine'. As well as the auditory commentary there is also a visual aspect - the running of images, scenarios, in which you can picture 'yourself' in 3rd person (i.e. looking onto yourself in various situations) but also run these scenarios in first person (i.e. as if you are looking through your eyes and they are actually happening.)
It also has the trick of the past and the future - memories to remind of how you have existed and future imaginings to show how you will continue to exist.

There is also another assumption at play here, so fundamental and hidden that, again, it too seems to go unchallenged: that there is a self in control, a 'doer' of things, one that makes decisions and steers the direction of one's life. This belief was also formed from the early years - it seems so plausible, for example, thought says 'I am hungry' and 'you' take the body into the kitchen in search of food......
and unchallenged, unwritten, unnoticed are all the assumptions in that simple act - that here is a self, that that self has a body, that that self makes decision, has choice, takes action.

All in all, thought brings a pretty powerful and pervasive argument to convince one that there really is a self that exists in reality, taking control of its life (or not!) and generally getting along with the task of providing for this self and developing and bettering this self.

3)How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Well, writing it now, it feels quite obvious. However, there is also this sense of fascination. Fascination that such a system exists, that it is sssoooo clever, designed as it is to effectively hide the truth from itself! And how effective it is!
The difference from before this dialogue started is that I never questioned anything! There it is - that is the truth of it! I thought I did, thought I always looked within and tried to find answers, find the 'truth', but I didn't ask the right questions and didn't look in the right places and didn't question any of the now obvious assumptions being made!

Feel free to seek clarification on anything,

looking forward to the next 3 questions,

Love Mark

[JonathanR]

Wow! Thats blown my hair off Mark. Great. Well, here are the second three...

4)What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5)Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?



Love,

Jon.

[marka]

Hey Jon,

I'm assuming your 'hair being blown off' was a pleasant thing?!
more answers today:

4)What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Definitely when we spoke recently about choice and decision making. I can quote this from an earlier post to illustrate:

I simply think it has been assumed that there is a me and that of course it is in control, making decisions, choosing directions,

that was it .... the fact that I had never really looked before, not properly, not at this. And of course, when proper, truthful looking occurred it simply demonstrated that there was never a 'me' deciding, choosing, taking control.

This is perhaps running into the next question:

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

No deciding or choosing going on, no. No control over events in life.
Intend? Hmm, there is intention at times. I've not truly looked at this one ..... wait ..... I have just set one or two intentions, there was some thought, both visual and some commentary, some inner sensations ..... but when I look for the 'me' doing it, there is no one to be found!

this bit:

Do you make anything happen?

No. Life happens. Ideas and thoughts float in and out. There is action at times. That's it.

We've covered some examples recently, the time during yoga - that there was no one to decide when to change postures or how long to stay in them.
Then with the bicycle - no one to decide when to pedal, or how much to pedal.
All these things just happened.

To be honest, this is fairly new to me, this way of perceiving and I am still experiencing amazement at what actually occurs. As well as, at times, still getting sucked into the assumption, the habit, that there is a me making it all happen - that's what it i s, simply an assumption in thought.


this moves into the next question a bit:

6) Anything to add?

Like I said, I am still experiencing amazement at what actually occurs. I'm still in that 'disbelief' phase, as in 'really, this is it? Life really just flows?'
And as a consequence of it being so new, again mentioned above,I do still process automatically at times as if there was a 'me'. And there is a worry within this - I do still get caught in thought stories and still behave as if there is a me - so thought says ' how much has the perception truly shifted?' !

On the other side of this though, there appears to be developing a sense of deep calm, life happens, no need to worry about it. Or about what may happen.
Instead there is a sense of trust, from deep 'inside', wherever that is. I guess it's a 'trust in life' and is an entirely new sensation for 'me' to recognise and welcome.

I don't know what else to say Jon, time will tell I guess!

oh, thank you for your skilled guiding, not only your patience but also your comments, really helping me to understand and to look,

once again, feel free to seek clarification on anything,

Love,
Mark

[JonathanR]

Dear Mark,

There is nothing I feel the need to ask. Thank you for your delightful and wonderful answers.

It is not at all uncommon for thoughts to appear saying 'did this really happen?' (or similar) but as you have indicated, habit of thinking in certain ways has a part in it and you recognise the content of these thoughts as simply content.

Anyway, we have come to a stage now where I would like to ask other guides to take a look at our conversation. It's useful because sometimes another guide or two will shed light on something and provide some extra questions.

This may take a day or two to happen so hang in there and do not disappear!

Love,

Jon.

[JonathanR]

Hi again Mark,

Several guides have taken a look at our conversation. From their responses, like you they are aware that this 'seeing' is a very new and fresh thing.

Like I said, I am still experiencing amazement at what actually occurs. I'm still in that 'disbelief' phase, as in 'really, this is it? Life really just flows?'
And as a consequence of it being so new, again mentioned above,I do still process automatically at times as if there was a 'me'. And there is a worry within this - I do still get caught in thought stories and still behave as if there is a me - so thought says ' how much has the perception truly shifted?'

Thought stories will come. Thought stories will go. The thoughts will 'contain' ideas that may seem convincing at times. It is possible to forget, for a while. But then, remembering occurs naturally and it is seen that the content of thought is simply that. The content. Whatever thoughts 'say' is not the same thing as noticing what is actually going on. Your yoga experiences in particular showed you this, didn't they?

One guide asks the following questions:

'What is this 'I' that gets caught up in thoughts? 'Is 'getting 'caught up' in thoughts just another thought story?' 'Is there anything lacking in this moment?' or 'Does perception need to change,is there anything lacking in this moment?'

And I have a suggestion too..
Did I suggest earlier on that it can be a great thing to go for a walk in nature? To the park perhaps, or by the sea? Anyway, try to find time to do this and notice how alive everything is. The trees, grass, wind, clouds, sun, animals, people...all happening, all moving or changing. Now look for a line between 'you' and 'the rest of everything', a cut-of point where 'you end' and 'world begins'. Is there a line or edge, or is it all flowing, not separate?

Love,

Jon

[marka]

Hi Jon,


I didn't check back until later today and was pleasantly surprised to see this post so swiftly.

thanks for this bit, it really helped clarify for me:

Thought stories will come. Thought stories will go. The thoughts will 'contain' ideas that may seem convincing at times. It is possible to forget, for a while. But then, remembering occurs naturally and it is seen that the content of thought is simply that. The content. Whatever thoughts 'say' is not the same thing as noticing what is actually going on. Your yoga experiences in particular showed you this, didn't they?

Thanks to the guide for asking these questions:

What is this 'I' that gets caught up in thoughts? 'Is 'getting 'caught up' in thoughts just another thought story?'

Yes, It's just as you say - another thought story, not an actual 'I'.
'

Is there anything lacking in this moment?' or 'Does perception need to change,is there anything lacking in this moment?'

Nothing lacking, nothing need change.

And I have a suggestion too..
Did I suggest earlier on that it can be a great thing to go for a walk in nature? To the park perhaps, or by the sea? Anyway, try to find time to do this and notice how alive everything is. The trees, grass, wind, clouds, sun, animals, people...all happening, all moving or changing. Now look for a line between 'you' and 'the rest of everything', a cut-of point where 'you end' and 'world begins'. Is there a line or edge, or is it all flowing, not separate?

You have not suggested this before. I will do this tomorrow and report back, thank you.

Love,

Mark

[JonathanR]

Hi Mark,

Thank you for those answers.

Let me know how you get on with the walk.

Love,

Jon