Seeking a Guide

[Myrmidonktm]

Thanks Vivien :)

But is this REALLY the case? Or only thoughts say so?

Only thoughts say there is a sound and a hearer.

So, how is it known exactly that the body hears?

If the ears are covered sound is lessened or not heard at all. The direction a sound comes from is also discernible by it's relevance to the position of the body, left/right/front/rear.

Pay attention to a sound. And find that which hears. What exactly? The ears?

When a sound is heard there is just hearing. The body and ears are not experienced, just hearing. There is no discernible "Hearer" that hears.

Other then sensations and mental images is there anything to an ear?

and

What is the ACTUAL experience of an ear?

An ear can be touched and seen, but in hearing it is not experienced as being the "hearer" of the sound, except as noted above in the example of direction and being covered.

Thanks Vivien :)
Kevin

[Vivien]

Dear Kevin,

I see the same contradiction in your last post what I mentioned before.

At one hand you say:

When a sound is heard there is just hearing. The body and ears are not experienced, just hearing. There is no discernible "Hearer" that hears.

So here you say that there isn’t a separate hearer, only hearing.

But in the next sentence:

If the ears are covered sound is lessened or not heard at all. The direction a sound comes from is also discernible by it's relevance to the position of the body, left/right/front/rear.

Here there is a suggestion that there is a subject (ear and the body) that is doing the hearing of a separate object (sound). Can you see this?

This comment is NOT coming from the ACTUAL experience, it is just the ‘content’ of a thought. Can you see this?

An ear can be touched and seen, but in hearing it is not experienced as being the "hearer" of the sound, except as noted above in the example of direction and being covered.

“An ear can be touched and seen” – pay attention only to the pure sensation that is labelled by thoughts as ‘ear’.

When and how exactly the pure sensation is turned to become ‘an ear’?

Does the sensation itself tell in any what that this is an ear?
Or the mental label ‘ear’ is derived from the mental image (of ear) that arise simultaneously with the sensation?


Touch the ears and tell me:

When and how exactly the pure SINGLE sensation (or touching) is turned to become 2 separate objects (a hand that is toughing the ear)?
Look very closely… Is this REALLY the case?

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that there is an ear and a hand, or is there only a pure sensation (or touching)?
If so, how is it known exactly that a hand is touching an ear? Can this be known at all? Or only thoughts and mental images suggest this?

Just because a thought say that a hand is touching an ear, is this so?

At one hand, you say that there is no separate hearer and a separate sound.
But on the other hand, you say that although there is no hearer IN the body, the BODY ITSELF is the separate subject that is doing the hearing of the separate sound. Can you see this?

Love, Vivien

[Myrmidonktm]

Thanks Vivien :)

Here there is a suggestion that there is a subject (ear and the body) that is doing the hearing of a separate object (sound). Can you see this?

Yes.

This comment is NOT coming from the ACTUAL experience, it is just the ‘content’ of a thought. Can you see this?

Yes, I came to the same conclusion during the day. I have focused on hearing all day and have seen how thought suggests "Hearer and the heard". Thought says "That sound is left, right, over there, over here". There is hearing. Thought makes up everything else.

When and how exactly the pure sensation is turned to become ‘an ear’?

The sensation is just touching. Only thought labels "touching an ear".

Or the mental label ‘ear’ is derived from the mental image (of ear) that arise simultaneously with the sensation?

Only a label created by thought.

When and how exactly the pure SINGLE sensation (or touching) is turned to become 2 separate objects (a hand that is toughing the ear)?
Look very closely… Is this REALLY the case?

There is only one sensation, "touching". Thought creates the "Toucher and Touched". < < Never looked at this before.

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that there is an ear and a hand, or is there only a pure sensation (or touching)?
If so, how is it known exactly that a hand is touching an ear? Can this be known at all? Or only thoughts and mental images suggest this?

There is only the sensation of "Touching". Only thought says "A hand is touching 'this'".

Just because a thought say that a hand is touching an ear, is this so?

No. There is only thought suggesting this.

At one hand, you say that there is no separate hearer and a separate sound.
But on the other hand, you say that although there is no hearer IN the body, the BODY ITSELF is the separate subject that is doing the hearing of the separate sound. Can you see this?

Yes, clearly.

Thanks Vivien
Kevin

[Vivien]

Dear Kevin,

Yes, I came to the same conclusion during the day. I have focused on hearing all day and have seen how thought suggests "Hearer and the heard". Thought says "That sound is left, right, over there, over here". There is hearing. Thought makes up everything else.

Yes!

There is only one sensation, "touching". Thought creates the "Toucher and Touched". < < Never looked at this before.

Good to see this :)

Vivien: At one hand, you say that there is no separate hearer and a separate sound.
But on the other hand, you say that although there is no hearer IN the body, the BODY ITSELF is the separate subject that is doing the hearing of the separate sound. Can you see this?

Kevin: Yes, clearly.

Then please try to find the BODY that is the SEPARATE subject that is doing the hearing / seeing / thinking / tasting / smelling / touching of the separate objects (sound / sight / thought / taste / smell / touched object).

Look for the BODY that is the SEPARATE experiencer. What can be found exactly when we refer to the body?
Look similarly as you did with the ears.

Love, Vivien

[Myrmidonktm]

Hey Vivien :)

Look for the body that is the separate experiencer

When searched for, when the experience is had, be it touching, hearing, tasting, etc., the body is not experienced as being separate from the sensation. There is no body AND sensation. Just sensation.

Thanks Vivien :)
Kevin

[Vivien]

Dear Kevin,

When searched for, when the experience is had, be it touching, hearing, tasting, etc., the body is not experienced as being separate from the sensation. There is no body AND sensation. Just sensation.

Nice :)

Here are some general questions:

Has it been clearly seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?

Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Do others have responsibilities?

Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?
Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?

Any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

Whet it is seen that there has never been a self, as a next step, there are further six questions to ask as part of this guiding process. The response is then shared with other guides. They may or may not have further questions.

Once it is confirmed by other guides that seeing through the illusion of the self has happened, our conversation in this thread will come to an end, however you won’t be left alone. There is a whole community of others on FB (exclusive LU community), who have also seen through the ‘self’. Further inquiries and discussions happen there.

Are you ready for the six questions?

Love, Vivien

[Myrmidonktm]

Hey Vivien :)

Has it been clearly seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?

Beyond any doubt.

Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

No

Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Do others have responsibilities?

There is no "I" that could be responsible for anything.

Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?

No, there is no "Me".

Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?

No.

Any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

Nothing.

Are you ready for the six questions?

Yes.

Thanks Vivien :)
Kevin

[Vivien]

Dear Kevin,

So here are the six questions. Please answer as clearly as possible and with as much detail as needed. Don’t forget to add everyday examples from your experience for question 5.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Love, Vivien

[Myrmidonktm]

Thanks Vivien :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there was only thought labeled as "I, Me".

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of self is seeing a separate "Me" as a being that experiences the world from a perspective of "ME and everything else outside of ME". This begins at a very young age and continues developing during growth and eventually a complete "Me" is created in thought. A "me" with beliefs, opinions, etc. How does it work from my perspective? One believes everything they think.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Liberating :) I knew, intellectually, that there was no "I", but never fully realized it before this dialogue. There was some wall I could not pass until now. It was perhaps, the body. A good example is seeing that there is no "me" that bad things are happening to. "Bad" is just a label, a thought, and to "me" is just a label, just a thought. All thoughts.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I believe that wall I could not get passed was "thinking" that "I" controlled the body. The body exercise, specifically the drinking part, did it for me. Realizing there was no "I" that was reaching for, grasping, then lifting the cup.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

"Decision, intention, free will, choice and control"...These are all descriptions of thoughts, and nothing but thoughts. If the thought "I want a cup of coffee" arises, coffee gets made, coffee gets consumed. There is no "I" to decide.
What makes things happen? Things just happen. There is no controlling "Me" that makes things happen.
How does it work? Good question !!
What are you responsible for? There is no "I" that can be responsible for anything.

6) Anything to add?

Only immeasurable Gratitude :) Thank You Very Much !!!

Love,
Kevin

[Vivien]

Dear Kevin,

Only immeasurable Gratitude :) Thank You Very Much !!!

You’re more than welcome :)

I'm happy to say that the guides are satisfied that you have seen through the illusion of a separate self and none of them has any further questions.

I'm sending you a private message, so please check your inbox.

Love, Vivien

[Myrmidonktm]

Hey Vivien, I just checked my inbox and it is empty :(

[Myrmidonktm]

P.S.-
I am on FB here
https://www.facebook.com/kevin.mannion.7

[Vivien]

Then I try to send it again :)