Thread for Igor

[Igor]

There can be thoughts about the past but the now never become the past!

Does past or future ‘exists’ other than content of thoughts?

No, it doesn't exist.

Is there a proof that you had dinner last night?

No, there isn't.

Where is THE last night dinner exactly?

Nowhere, it doesn't exist. Only as a thought story but not in actual experience.

Is there any proof whatsoever that the past has ever happened?

No!

Please, take a blank piece of paper and a pen.
For a few minutes sit quietly and just observe the blank paper.
Then take the pen and very slowly start to write to the paper a word, like table, but stop at the first letter. So you write only the letter 't'.

When the letter 't' is there, stop, look at the paper and investigate:

How is it known exactly that just a 5 seconds ago this paper was totally blank?

Exactly in direct experience without believing a thought it can't be known that just a 5 seconds ago this paper was totally blanl.

How is it known that the paper was ever blank at all?

It can't be known.

How is it known that the letter 't' is written by me, or by this hand?

In direct actual experience there is no "me" written the latter "t" also no hand, just raw sensations.

Now, put the tip of the pen to the paper as if you were starting to write the next letter, but don't write anything yet.

How is it known that just 2 seconds ago the pen didn't touch the paper, but now it does?

Hmm, interesting. It isn't known without referring to thoughts. Here is just this, a blank paper.

Very-very slowly, start to write the next letter 'a'. Watch very carefully.

Is there an experience of change?

pfu, NO, there isn't.

When the letter 'a' is on the paper, how is it known that it wasn't there a few seconds ago?

It isn't known.

So now, there is 'ta' written on the paper.
Where is that moment when there was only 't' on the paper?

It isn't. In direct actual experience there is just this "Ta", that also the letter "T" was written is only a assumption.

In order to say that change is being observed, comparison is needed.
What is being compared to this moment when there is 'ta' on the paper?

Only a thought story is being compared to this moment when there is 'ta' on the papper.



Nice investigation!
Love, Igor

[Vivien]

Dear Igor,

Only a thought story is being compared to this moment when there is 'ta' on the papper.

Can this moment be REALLY compared to a thought story? If yes, how?
Can experiencing be compared?

Comparing happens only ‘in’ thoughts. So in order to compare anything, first we need a thought about it, so this moment is conceptualized in order to compare it to another concept (another thought). So this moment cannot be compared as such. Can you see this?

And if we go a step further….
If there is no change, then how can there be comparison?

You asked: when i do reply on your question, I aks myself who is giving the answers. Who is asking the question like Who or what iam....

So, what is your reply to this question?

Here are some further questions about ‘reality’. We use the word ‘reality’ with direct pointing to distinguish the mental narrative, images and concepts from what is really IS instead of what thoughts suggest what is. However, the word ‘reality’ suggests an objective 'thing' that exists outside of the knowing of it.

Can we say that there is an objective, independent reality?
What it could be objective and independent from?
If a tree falls in a forest but nobody is around to hear it, is there a sound?
Is there a sound without the knowing of it?


Here are some general questions. Please reply to them a bit longer (about a paragraph).

What is a thought? What is the ‘content’ of a thought (what it is about)?

What is actual experience and how it differs from the ‘contents’ of thoughts (or what the thought is about)?

What is the body exactly?

What is time (past and future)?

Is there anything outside of this moment (either in time or space)?

Do you have any question or any areas you would like to further investigate on?

I asked a lot, so you don’t have to reply right away. You might want to do some looking for a few days before replying. You don’t have to hurry. Take your time.

Love, Vivien

[Igor]

I asked a lot, so you don’t have to reply right away. You might want to do some looking for a few days before replying. You don’t have to hurry. Take your time.

Love, Vivien

Thank you Vivien, i will reply after few days!
I must get very clear about your last questions.
Im very greatful! :)


Thank you,
Love Igor

[Igor]

Dear Igor,

Only a thought story is being compared to this moment when there is 'ta' on the papper.

Can this moment be REALLY compared to a thought story? If yes, how?
Can experiencing be compared?

Comparing happens only ‘in’ thoughts. So in order to compare anything, first we need a thought about it, so this moment is conceptualized in order to compare it to another concept (another thought). So this moment cannot be compared as such. Can you see this?

And if we go a step further….
If there is no change, then how can there be comparison?

You asked: when i do reply on your question, I aks myself who is giving the answers. Who is asking the question like Who or what iam....

So, what is your reply to this question?

Here are some further questions about ‘reality’. We use the word ‘reality’ with direct pointing to distinguish the mental narrative, images and concepts from what is really IS instead of what thoughts suggest what is. However, the word ‘reality’ suggests an objective 'thing' that exists outside of the knowing of it.

Can we say that there is an objective, independent reality?
What it could be objective and independent from?
If a tree falls in a forest but nobody is around to hear it, is there a sound?
Is there a sound without the knowing of it?


Here are some general questions. Please reply to them a bit longer (about a paragraph).

What is a thought? What is the ‘content’ of a thought (what it is about)?

What is actual experience and how it differs from the ‘contents’ of thoughts (or what the thought is about)?

What is the body exactly?

What is time (past and future)?

Is there anything outside of this moment (either in time or space)?

Do you have any question or any areas you would like to further investigate on?

I asked a lot, so you don’t have to reply right away. You might want to do some looking for a few days before replying. You don’t have to hurry. Take your time.

Love, Vivien

Only a thought story is being compared to this moment when there is 'ta' on the papper.

Can this moment be REALLY compared to a thought story? If yes, how?

Only a thought can be compared to a thought story about this moment.

Can experiencing be compared?

No, it can't be. Experiencing is always "just" experiencing, the content of experiencing may change but experiencing never.

And if we go a step further….
If there is no change, then how can there be comparison?

Yes, i answerd this question already in the above questions :)

You asked: when i do reply on your question, I aks myself who is giving the answers. Who is asking the question like Who or what iam....

So, what is your reply to this question?

It seems to me that this cain of questions is also asking the person "Igor" who in actual experience as such doesn't exist. If i ask myself the question who im the there is simply no answer, just silence. I can't even find the questioner. If you can help me to clear this once for ever it would be very fine.

Here are some further questions about ‘reality’. We use the word ‘reality’ with direct pointing to distinguish the mental narrative, images and concepts from what is really IS instead of what thoughts suggest what is. However, the word ‘reality’ suggests an objective 'thing' that exists outside of the knowing of it.

Can we say that there is an objective, independent reality?

No, in my experience this can't be the case. There is not such a thing as independent reality, independent of what?

What it could be objective and independent from?

Hmmm again i answered this question already by myself casue i ever read your question one by one. :)

If a tree falls in a forest but nobody is around to hear it, is there a sound?

No, there is no sound cause there is no perceiving.

Is there a sound without the knowing of it?

:) No.

Here are some general questions. Please reply to them a bit longer (about a paragraph).

What is a thought? What is the ‘content’ of a thought (what it is about)?

What is a thought? I see a thought as energy appearing as image or sound or voice.
What it is about?
It interprets reality. I can't say more about it maybe just that a thought is many times about a seperate self, a thought represents itself as something absolute real and significant.

What is actual experience and how it differs from the ‘contents’ of thoughts (or what the thought is about)?

The actual experience is experiencing the raw senssations, feeling etc. without the thought, the story about it, without the past or the future. The actual experience is experiencing just what is here as it is.

What is the body exactly?

What is the body exactly? It is something through which we can experience and live life. I direct experience without thought the body is just a combination of all sensations in this moment.

What is time (past and future)?

Without thoughts past and future doesn't exist so they are just a concept. In direct experience there is no past no future not even this moment.

Is there anything outside of this moment (either in time or space)?

All there is is in this moment, even when past or future thoughts are appearing they are appearing in this moment.

Do you have any question or any areas you would like to further investigate on?

If im honest is don't realy know. In past days i felt such peace and clearity, no questions, no nothing but i would like to investigate or better to say have a hint from you about the most basic questions which i can investigate when im identified with "seperate self". Do you have a hint about which voices in our head should one follow? Do one must follow any of them? I don't know, i have sometimes a feeling that nothing would happen if i don't follow a thought but on the other hand, also sometimes nothing happens if i do follow it.

Thank you very much, Vivien
Love, Igor

[Vivien]

Dear Igor,

Since you said you want to go deep with the inquiry, there are some areas we can look at a bit more.

Experiencing is always "just" experiencing, the content of experiencing may change but experiencing never.

Read your comment above. At one hand you say that there is no change (thus time), but in the other hand you say that there is time and therefore change. Something has been seen and now you try to adjust it to the original belief in time. So you want both, the realization (time is just an idea) while keeping the old belief intact (there is a linear time). Can you see this?

How could an experience change?
What is the ACTUAL experience of change?

Does experiencing have a content?
If so, what would that be?

So you say, that there is a SEPARATE experiencing that is never changes, but it has a SEPARATE content which changes???

Where is the dividing line between experiencing and the so called content of it?
Where does experiencing end and the content of it starts?

Vivien: You asked: when i do reply on your question, I aks myself who is giving the answers. Who is asking the question like Who or what iam....
So, what is your reply to this question?

Igor: It seems to me that this cain of questions is also asking the person "Igor" who in actual experience as such doesn't exist. If i ask myself the question who im the there is simply no answer, just silence. I can't even find the questioner. If you can help me to clear this once for ever it would be very fine.

“If I ask myself the question who I am…” – What does the word ‘myself’ refers to in this sentence?

“I can’t even find the questioner” – What is it exactly that cannot find the questioner? What is the ‘I’ that cannot find the questioner?

Vivien: What is a thought?

Igor: I see a thought as energy appearing as image or sound or voice.

How is it known that thought is an energy appearing? Isn’t it just another thought? – look closely.
What is the ACTUAL experience of a thought being an energy?

Vivien: What it is about? (thought)

Igor: It interprets reality. I can't say more about it maybe just that a thought is many times about a seperate self, a thought represents itself as something absolute real and significant.

Thoughts interpret reality?
What reality?

You’ve just said that there is no such thing as reality (like the forest). In order to say that thoughts interpret reality, there has to be a stand-alone reality.

So there have to be 2 things:

• (1) a reality
  (2) and thoughts that could interpret it
  

But is this the case?

Where is reality exactly? Show me!
Are there 2 things, reality and thoughts (that interpret it)?

The actual experience is experiencing the raw senssations, feeling etc. without the thought, the story about it, without the past or the future. The actual experience is experiencing just what is here as it is.

And what about thoughts? The appearing thought is not ‘part of’ the experience?
Doesn’t the thought itself also appear as ‘a part of’ what IS?

What is the body exactly? It is something through which we can experience and live life. I direct experience without thought the body is just a combination of all sensations in this moment.

Here is the same contradiction as with time above. Something has been seen about the body, and now you try to fit that seeing into the old belief about the world and the body. Can you see this?

“Body is something through which we can experience and live life” – ohhh REALLY?

What is the word ‘we’ refer to in this sentence?

What is it exactly that could experience life THROUGH the body?
What is the ACTUAL experience of ‘experiencing life through the body’? – please describe it as detailed as you can.

What is it that is separate from life, so it can experience it?

And what body? What is the body exactly?

Do sensations appear IN the body
or
the ‘body’ is a thought label ON the sensations itself?

I direct experience without thought the body is just a combination of all sensations in this moment.

In direct experience???
So, is there such thing as direct experience and non-direct experience?

i would like to investigate or better to say have a hint from you about the most basic questions which i can investigate when im identified with "seperate self".

What is it exactly that could identify with the ‘separate self’?

So are there 2 things….:

• (1) the ‘thing’ that could identify
  (2) with the separate self?

Do you have a hint about which voices in our head should one follow?

Voices in our head???
How is it known that any voice is coming from the head?
What is the ACTUAL experience of “voices coming from the head’?

What is the ACTUAL experience of a ‘head’?

Do you have a hint about which voices in our head should one follow? Do one must follow any of them?

What is it exactly that could follow any voices?

What is the ACTUAL experience of ‘following voices’?

I don't know, i have sometimes a feeling that nothing would happen if i don't follow a thought but on the other hand, also sometimes nothing happens if i do follow it.

What does the word ‘I’ refer to in this sentence? What is it that could follow or not follow?
“I have sometimes a feeling that nothing would happen if….” – how is this felt exactly?

What is it exactly that has feelings?

I’ve asked a lot again, so take your time. Look very carefully.

Love, Vivien

[Igor]

Experiencing is always "just" experiencing, the content of experiencing may change but experiencing never.

Read your comment above. At one hand you say that there is no change (thus time), but in the other hand you say that there is time and therefore change. Something has been seen and now you try to adjust it to the original belief in time. So you want both, the realization (time is just an idea) while keeping the old belief intact (there is a linear time). Can you see this?

Yes, now i can see this, only thoughts about the "content" are changing.

How could an experience change?

Indeed it can't.

What is the ACTUAL experience of change?

In ACTUAL experience there is no time therefor there is no change.

Does experiencing have a content?

Experiencing does not have a content.

So you say, that there is a SEPARATE experiencing that is never changes, but it has a SEPARATE content which changes???

Now i see that this is not true cause here is only experiencing and not experiencing of something but the way of speaking about it is "almost imposible"

Where is the dividing line between experiencing and the so called content of it?

Of course not.

Where does experiencing end and the content of it starts?

The line between that doesn't exist, experiencing does not have a end or a start,

Vivien: You asked: when i do reply on your question, I aks myself who is giving the answers. Who is asking the question like Who or what iam....
So, what is your reply to this question?

Igor: It seems to me that this cain of questions is also asking the person "Igor" who in actual experience as such doesn't exist. If i ask myself the question who im the there is simply no answer, just silence. I can't even find the questioner. If you can help me to clear this once for ever it would be very fine.

“If I ask myself the question who I am…” – What does the word ‘myself’ refers to in this sentence?

In this sentence the word "myself" refers to a "person, Igor".

“I can’t even find the questioner” – What is it exactly that cannot find the questioner? What is the ‘I’ that cannot find the questioner?

Hmm... yes, that I which cannot find the questioner is in itself the questioner as i see it now. That I was or is just a thought.

Vivien: What is a thought?

Igor: I see a thought as energy appearing as image or sound or voice.

How is it known that thought is an energy appearing? Isn’t it just another thought? – look closely./quote]

Now i see this, It was just a nice story :D blah blah

What is the ACTUAL experience of a thought being an energy?

In ACTUAL experience there is no Thought and no Energy, true... funny

Vivien: What it is about? (thought)

Igor: It interprets reality. I can't say more about it maybe just that a thought is many times about a seperate self, a thought represents itself as something absolute real and significant.

Thoughts interpret reality?
What reality?

As i now see it, all my answers were just "shit", so from this state i can not imagine that any of my answers will have any more truth... and yes I see that the answers are just the next thing, which disappears in direct experience as a bubble.

Thoughts interpret reality?
What reality?

lol, no answer to that.

You’ve just said that there is no such thing as reality (like the forest). In order to say that thoughts interpret reality, there has to be a stand-alone reality.

So there have to be 2 things:
(1) a reality
(2) and thoughts that could interpret it
But is this the case?

Where is reality exactly? Show me!
Are there 2 things, reality and thoughts (that interpret it)?

Thank you, now is this clear!!! lol

The actual experience is experiencing the raw senssations, feeling etc. without the thought, the story about it, without the past or the future. The actual experience is experiencing just what is here as it is.

And what about thoughts? The appearing thought is not ‘part of’ the experience?

It also is yes, everything that appears is ‘part of’ the experience.

Doesn’t the thought itself also appear as ‘a part of’ what IS?

Yes, everything is.

What is the body exactly? It is something through which we can experience and live life. I direct experience without thought the body is just a combination of all sensations in this moment.

Here is the same contradiction as with time above. Something has been seen about the body, and now you try to fit that seeing into the old belief about the world and the body. Can you see this?

“Body is something through which we can experience and live life” – ohhh REALLY?

What is the word ‘we’ refer to in this sentence?

What is it exactly that could experience life THROUGH the body?
What is the ACTUAL experience of ‘experiencing life through the body’? – please describe it as detailed as you can.

What is it that is separate from life, so it can experience it?

And what body? What is the body exactly?

Do sensations appear IN the body
or
the ‘body’ is a thought label ON the sensations itself?

Absolutely clear for me now!!!

I direct experience without thought the body is just a combination of all sensations in this moment.

In direct experience???
So, is there such thing as direct experience and non-direct experience?

No, it can't be!!! :) Even the non-direct is direct-experience... just experience.

i would like to investigate or better to say have a hint from you about the most basic questions which i can investigate when im identified with "seperate self".

What is it exactly that could identify with the ‘separate self’?

So are there 2 things….:
(1) the ‘thing’ that could identify
(2) with the separate self?

It just seems so, yes, Both are same.

Do you have a hint about which voices in our head should one follow?

Voices in our head???
How is it known that any voice is coming from the head?
What is the ACTUAL experience of “voices coming from the head’?

What is the ACTUAL experience of a ‘head’?

This one is CLEAR now for me! Thank you!

I don't know, i have sometimes a feeling that nothing would happen if i don't follow a thought but on the other hand, also sometimes nothing happens if i do follow it.

What does the word ‘I’ refer to in this sentence? What is it that could follow or not follow?
“I have sometimes a feeling that nothing would happen if….” – how is this felt exactly?

What is it exactly that has feelings?

Ok, i won't answer on this questions cause they are just stupid, they are just a construct...
When you start a question What is it exactly, then here is just a smile and nothing more is important.

Do far you helped me a lot... In the end it is just silly what was before so important to me.

Thank you Vivien,
Love Igor

[Vivien]

Dear Igor,

You haven’t answered may questioned, just said that it‘s clear for you now. It might be clear for you, but how could I know that if you don’t share the answers with me?

Please answer ALL the questions, even when it seems totally clear and obvious for you. That’s the only way I can know too… :)

Yes, now i can see this, only thoughts about the "content" are changing.

Can even the ‘content’ of a thought change?

What is the ACTUAL experience of any kind of change?

Now i see that this is not true cause here is only experiencing and not experiencing of something but the way of speaking about it is "almost imposible"

“Here is only experiencing and not experiencing” – how ‘not experiencing’ is known?

Is there such thing as ‘not experiencing’? What would be that exactly?

Even the non-direct is direct-experience...

Same as above. Look very carefully…

How could a non-direct experience be a direct experience?
What is a non-direct experience?

Vivien: “I can’t even find the questioner” – What is it exactly that cannot find the questioner? What is the ‘I’ that cannot find the questioner?

Igor: Hmm... yes, that I which cannot find the questioner is in itself the questioner as i see it now. That I was or is just a thought.

Can you see clearly that there is no such thing as a questioner?
That there are only THOUGHTS ABOUT a questioner, but a questioner as such doesn’t exist other than an idea?

In ACTUAL experience there is no Thought and no Energy, true... funny

Yes, energy is just a concept. But...
In the actual experience there is no thought??

Please describe what you mean by actual experience.

Vivien: “If I ask myself the question who I am…” – What does the word ‘myself’ refers to in this sentence?

Igor: In this sentence the word "myself" refers to a "person, Igor".

So you say that the word ‘I’ in the above sentence refer to a person, to Igor…
So does Igor, the person, is asking a question: “Who am I” ?

What is this person exactly?
Where is this person exactly?

If you say, that the ‘I’ is just a thought, then how could a thought ask a question?

Can a thought ask a question?
Can a thought do anything?

Who is asking the question: “Who am I”?

----

Here are the questions you haven’t answered previously. I’ve copied all of the here for you.
You’ve just said that there is no such thing as reality (like the forest). In order to say that thoughts interpret reality, there has to be a stand-alone reality.

So there have to be 2 things:
(1) a reality
(2) and thoughts that could interpret it
But is this the case?

Where is reality exactly? Show me!
Are there 2 things, reality and thoughts (that interpret it)?


--

What is the body exactly? It is something through which we can experience and live life. I direct experience without thought the body is just a combination of all sensations in this moment.

Here is the same contradiction as with time above. Something has been seen about the body, and now you try to fit that seeing into the old belief about the world and the body. Can you see this?

“Body is something through which we can experience and live life” – ohhh REALLY?

What is the word ‘we’ refer to in this sentence?

What is it exactly that could experience life THROUGH the body?
What is the ACTUAL experience of ‘experiencing life through the body’? – please describe it as detailed as you can.

What is it that is separate from life, so it can experience it?

And what body? What is the body exactly?

Do sensations appear IN the body
or
the ‘body’ is a thought label ON the sensations itself?


Love, Vivien

[Igor]

You haven’t answered may questioned, just said that it‘s clear for you now. It might be clear for you, but how could I know that if you don’t share the answers with me?

Please answer ALL the questions, even when it seems totally clear and obvious for you. That’s the only way I can know too… :)

Can even the ‘content’ of a thought change?

I dont't exactly know what do you mean with content of a thought?
When I look a thought directly it disapears cause it is empty. So there is no content.

What is the ACTUAL experience of any kind of change?

There isn't any change in ACTUAL experience. There are only diferent shapes, colours etc. appearing. I don't know how to say this otherwise.

Now i see that this is not true cause here is only experiencing and not experiencing of something but the way of speaking about it is "almost imposible"

“Here is only experiencing and not experiencing” – how ‘not experiencing’ is known?

It can't be known cause from what could be that known, impossible.

Is there such thing as ‘not experiencing’? What would be that exactly?

Of course not.

Even the non-direct is direct-experience...
How could a non-direct experience be a direct experience?

It can't be. I see this now.

What is a non-direct experience?

Is it even possible? I don't know, for me not. Im just saying it so, when it is filtered trough thoughts but yes also this is then direct experience.

Vivien: “I can’t even find the questioner” – What is it exactly that cannot find the questioner? What is the ‘I’ that cannot find the questioner?

Igor: Hmm... yes, that I which cannot find the questioner is in itself the questioner as i see it now. That I was or is just a thought.

Can you see clearly that there is no such thing as a questioner?

Funny, yes i see now that there is no such thing as questioner.

That there are only THOUGHTS ABOUT a questioner, but a questioner as such doesn’t exist other than an idea?

True, a questioner as such doesn’t exist other than an idea.

In ACTUAL experience there is no Thought and no Energy, true... funny

Yes, energy is just a concept. But...
In the actual experience there is no thought??
Please describe what you mean by actual experience.

Hmmm, when i only feel, focus "inside" there are only senssations all thoughts disappear, this is the best way i can describe this... But mostly of course they are present...
With direct experience i mean 'without thoughts labeling" or not beliving thoughts about what im experiencing.

Vivien: “If I ask myself the question who I am…” – What does the word ‘myself’ refers to in this sentence?

Igor: In this sentence the word "myself" refers to a "person, Igor".

So you say that the word ‘I’ in the above sentence refer to a person, to Igor…
So does Igor, the person, is asking a question: “Who am I” ?

Im not sure... it seems so yes... but wait of course not... hmmm, when i look i can't find Igor, can something which doesn't exist for real ask questions? No way.

What is this person exactly?
Where is this person exactly?

It doesn't exist.

If you say, that the ‘I’ is just a thought, then how could a thought ask a question?

I don't know this when i look at it. A thought can't really ask a question, i can't find something that asks a question.

Can a thought ask a question?

NO. The querstion is just appearing as thoughts,

Can a thought do anything?

NO

Who is asking the question: “Who am I”?

Yes this question is in me for many years and i don't know the answer in words. Probably there is no answer for this question.

This was the first part of my answers! The second part will follow tomorrow.

Thank you Vivien,
Love, Igor

[Igor]

Dear Vivien

Here is the second part of my answers :)

Here are the questions you haven’t answered previously. I’ve copied all of the here for you.
You’ve just said that there is no such thing as reality (like the forest). In order to say that thoughts interpret reality, there has to be a stand-alone reality.

So there have to be 2 things:
(1) a reality
(2) and thoughts that could interpret it
But is this the case?

Where is reality exactly? Show me!
Are there 2 things, reality and thoughts (that interpret it)?


--

What is the body exactly? It is something through which we can experience and live life. I direct experience without thought the body is just a combination of all sensations in this moment.

Here is the same contradiction as with time above. Something has been seen about the body, and now you try to fit that seeing into the old belief about the world and the body. Can you see this?

“Body is something through which we can experience and live life” – ohhh REALLY?

What is the word ‘we’ refer to in this sentence?

What is it exactly that could experience life THROUGH the body?
What is the ACTUAL experience of ‘experiencing life through the body’? – please describe it as detailed as you can.

What is it that is separate from life, so it can experience it?

And what body? What is the body exactly?

Do sensations appear IN the body
or
the ‘body’ is a thought label ON the sensations itself?


Love, Vivien

Here are the questions you haven’t answered previously. I’ve copied all of the here for you.
You’ve just said that there is no such thing as reality (like the forest). In order to say that thoughts interpret reality, there has to be a stand-alone reality.

So there have to be 2 things:
(1) a reality
(2) and thoughts that could interpret it
But is this the case?

The thoughts which interpret reality are part of it, so yes, there are not 2 things, As i see it now is this just a mind trick, that seemingly divides reality...

Where is reality exactly? Show me!

I can't :)

Are there 2 things, reality and thoughts (that interpret it)?

No!

What is the body exactly? It is something through which we can experience and live life. I direct experience without thought the body is just a combination of all sensations in this moment.

Here is the same contradiction as with time above. Something has been seen about the body, and now you try to fit that seeing into the old belief about the world and the body. Can you see this?

Yes, i see this now.

“Body is something through which we can experience and live life” – ohhh REALLY?

I have no clue about it, this is the truth!

What is the word ‘we’ refer to in this sentence?

Same as the word I, i was telling you just another story... blah blah

What is it exactly that could experience life THROUGH the body?
What is the ACTUAL experience of ‘experiencing life through the body’? – please describe it as detailed as you can.

If im not going into a story there is nothing, so i can't describe nothing.

What is it that is separate from life, so it can experience it?

There is no separation, all is life.

And what body? What is the body exactly?

Yes, what body? Without a history story label here are only senssations.

Do sensations appear IN the body
or
the ‘body’ is a thought label ON the sensations itself?

The 'body' is a thought label ON the sensations itself, yes.


Thank you,
Love Igor

[Vivien]

Dear Igor,

I dont't exactly know what do you mean with content of a thought?

Yes, you’re right there is no such thing as a thought and its content. This is just an artificial differentiation to help to point out that an arising thought is ‘real’ or present as an arising thought, but never what it’s about.
So the word ‘content’ refers to what a thought is ABOUT.

Igor: Even the non-direct is direct-experience...

Vivien: How could a non-direct experience be a direct experience?

Igor: It can't be. I see this now.

So, there are only THOUGHTS ABOUT non-direct experience, but there is no such thing as non-direct experience, because non-direct experience is just an idea (a fantasy), NEVER what IS. Can you see this clearly?

Vivien: Please describe what you mean by actual experience.

Igor: Hmmm, when i only feel, focus "inside" there are only senssations all thoughts disappear, this is the best way i can describe this... But mostly of course they are present...

With direct experience i mean 'without thoughts labeling" or not beliving thoughts about what im experiencing.
Actual experience doesn’t exclude thoughts… it’s not the lack of thoughts…
What you describe above is a state where no thoughts appear. And all states come and go…

Actual experience is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling/touching + noticing the appearing thoughts

not beliving thoughts about what im experiencing.

What is it that is experiencing?
What is it that is having an experience?
What is it that is believing or not believing a thought?

Vivien: So does Igor, the person, is asking a question: “Who am I” ?

Igor: Im not sure... it seems so yes... but wait of course not... hmmm, when i look i can't find Igor, can something which doesn't exist for real ask questions? No way.

“When I look I can’t find Igor” – what is it exactly that is doing the looking?

Vivien: What is this person exactly?

Igor: It doesn't exist.

Please don’t just say that the person doesn’t exist, but go deeper. You asked for a very deep investigation… :)
So, please find what the word ‘person’ points to? – because it points to ‘something’.

Vivien: If you say, that the ‘I’ is just a thought, then how could a thought ask a question?

Igor: I don't know this when i look at it. A thought can't really ask a question, i can't find something that asks a question.

So, there is just an appearing thought, and this thought can be ABOUT a question (with a question mark) or about statement. That’s all. Can you see this clearly?

Vivien: And what body? What is the body exactly?
Igor: Yes, what body? Without a history story label here are only senssations.

So, is it completely clear that the body is…
sensations + images + the word ‘body’ + a thought interpretation?

The thought interpretation says that there is a link between the sensations, images and the word ‘body’. The thought interpretation also says that the sensation is coming FROM or contained IN the image.

But do sensations are contained in or coming from the image (called body)?

Love, Vivien

[Igor]

Igor: Even the non-direct is direct-experience...

Vivien: How could a non-direct experience be a direct experience?

Igor: It can't be. I see this now.

So, there are only THOUGHTS ABOUT non-direct experience, but there is no such thing as non-direct experience, because non-direct experience is just an idea (a fantasy), NEVER what IS. Can you see this clearly?

Yes, now this is clear for me.

not beliving thoughts about what im experiencing.

What is it that is experiencing?

Yes, what is it? For sure there is no one experiencing it, i can't tell more about it, there is no that, there is only experiencing and eve without this word it is as it is.

What is it that is having an experience?

There is nothing to have an experience, there is just experiencing.

What is it that is believing or not believing a thought?

That is just that, i don't know. Great question, qithout a story about that there is nothing.

Vivien: So does Igor, the person, is asking a question: “Who am I” ?

Igor: Im not sure... it seems so yes... but wait of course not... hmmm, when i look i can't find Igor, can something which doesn't exist for real ask questions? No way.

“When I look I can’t find Igor” – what is it exactly that is doing the looking?

What is it exactly that is doing the looking? If there is no I or me then there is nothing doing the looking so there is just looking, without a story self or me the is just looking.

Vivien: What is this person exactly?

Igor: It doesn't exist.

Please don’t just say that the person doesn’t exist, but go deeper. You asked for a very deep investigation… :)
So, please find what the word ‘person’ points to? – because it points to ‘something’.

Of course it points to something, to something made up out of thoughts as a imagine self.

Vivien: If you say, that the ‘I’ is just a thought, then how could a thought ask a question?

Igor: I don't know this when i look at it. A thought can't really ask a question, i can't find something that asks a question.

So, there is just an appearing thought, and this thought can be ABOUT a question (with a question mark) or about statement. That’s all. Can you see this clearly?

Yes, after your pointing, i can now see this clearly.

Vivien: And what body? What is the body exactly?
Igor: Yes, what body? Without a history story label here are only senssations.

So, is it completely clear that the body is…
sensations + images + the word ‘body’ + a thought interpretation?

When i question all my assumptions, this is clear.

The thought interpretation says that there is a link between the sensations, images and the word ‘body’. The thought interpretation also says that the sensation is coming FROM or contained IN the image.

But do sensations are contained in or coming from the image (called body)?

It seems to me like there is no line where they are coming from, for sure sensations are not contained in a "body". All i can say in this moment is that sensations are just here, being experienced. At first it seems "sure there are coming or are contained in the body" but looking more deeply this isn't really the case.

This investigation was very liberating...


Thank you Vivien,
Love Igor

[Vivien]

Dear Igor,

Vivien: So, please find what the word ‘person’ points to? – because it points to ‘something’.

Igor: Of course it points to something, to something made up out of thoughts as a imagine self.

YES! And the word ‘person’ also points to THIS BODY.
Can you see this?

Vivien: But do sensations are contained in or coming from the image (called body)?

Igor: It seems to me like there is no line where they are coming from, for sure sensations are not contained in a "body". All i can say in this moment is that sensations are just here, being experienced. At first it seems "sure there are coming or are contained in the body" but looking more deeply this isn't really the case.

OK. You say that the sensation is not coming from the body.
So you say that there is a sensation and there is a body, but the sensation is not coming from the body?

What is the difference between the sensation and the body?

So when you use the word ‘body’ what do you exactly refer to?
What does the word ‘body’ point to?

Please, don’t just think about the answers, but look very carefully.

Love, Vivien

[Igor]

Hi Vivien,

Vivien: So, please find what the word ‘person’ points to? – because it points to ‘something’.

Igor: Of course it points to something, to something made up out of thoughts as a imagine self.

YES! And the word ‘person’ also points to THIS BODY.
Can you see this?

Yes it does, i can "see" this.

Vivien: But do sensations are contained in or coming from the image (called body)?

Igor: It seems to me like there is no line where they are coming from, for sure sensations are not contained in a "body". All i can say in this moment is that sensations are just here, being experienced. At first it seems "sure there are coming or are contained in the body" but looking more deeply this isn't really the case.

OK. You say that the sensation is not coming from the body.
So you say that there is a sensation and there is a body, but the sensation is not coming from the body?

As i now read my reply, i was indeed saying it so but I did not mean that to say.
As i see it now, the sensation and the body are one thing, there isn't a line between the body and a sensation.

What is the difference between the sensation and the body?

There isn't any diference.

Thank you,
Love Igor

[Vivien]

Dear Igor,

the sensation and the body are one thing, there isn't a line between the body and a sensation.

Nice looking :)

Has it been clearly seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Do others have responsibilities?

Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?
Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?

Any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

Love, Vivien

[Igor]

Hi Vivien,

so far, so good. Through our investigation many things had been seen throught, which i only thought so far to be clear for me but were not... Now i'm in a strange proces cause i relly don't know nothing anymore, it even feels strange to post something on FB cause it just feels stupid. but anyway it is not important... some things are coming to the fore with some strong identity, like " social anxiety", shyness but has reduced the relevance... but they don't have a strong energetic pul anymore... if they occur, they also quickly disappear because there is no one to whom they would be stuck.... Ok, let's go back to the questions.

the sensation and the body are one thing, there isn't a line between the body and a sensation.

Nice looking :)

Has it been clearly seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?

Yes this is clear for me.

Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

No, under investigation there is nothing like that, things are just happening.

Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Do others have responsibilities?

For me no. but also there no irresponsible 'I'...

Do others have responsibilities?
I don't know, it seems that some act responsibly and some not. But there is only acting like...

Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?

Strange but no.

Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?

No. All was made up and believed.

Any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

at the moment, no.



Thank you,
Love Igor