Triratna OM Guide please

[dridhamati]

Hi Dee,

Are you saying that you are not experiencing visual sensations? Could you please elaborate?

I know the theory. I feel as if I can't just stay with the sensation. I feel like I'm adding descriptions on. I see colours and darkness. I am experiencing sensations of light and dark, colour.

Dee, some description is necessary, else how can there be a dialogue?
The first purpose of the exercise is to differentiate between sensations -that’s the observed experience itself- and labels, concepts, etc. -that’s all the thoughts ‘about’ the experience.
When that differentiation is clear, a report is written, using the barest of qualifiers, the least amount of description, using words that point the most directly at the experience, short-circuiting all the stories and labels and concepts.

Yes I was moving the focus from mug to around table.

OK, thanks for clarifying this.

Is this the actual experience? Or is it another concept that was learned?

yes - learned

So it has no place in the dialogue at the moment, right?

is there anyway this separation can be experienced in the field of vision?

no! Ah! I though I got it then. But then the experience of focus and out of focus came in and caused doubt and confusion. There's a variety of colours and shades in my experience of looking. the edges look a bit blurred. I can't help "knowing" that they are separate items. Is focus a learned thing? If I look using my Poundland reading glasses then colours and light and dark are more vague. I am experiencing that.
I know the focus thing is my mind questioning

Please forget focus, glasses, etc. This is not about interpreting experience through focus or pound-shop specs, it's about experiencing.
Perhaps the question wasn’t direct enough: please park ALL thoughts away and look.
And then:
Do you really see ‘separate objects’?
Can this separation be experienced in the field of vision?

All the best
Dridhamati

[Dee]

Hi Dridhamati - I'm wondering if you are OK or if perhaps there's another technical issue as I haven't heard from you since 12th. I hope all is well with you.
Best wishes
Dee

[Dee]

Oh that's strange. I just came back to the posts and I can see a reply from you. I'm not sure what I did! Sorry. I'll read it now, dee

[Dee]

Thanks for the feedback Dridhamati
There is a wide variety of light and dark and colours - that's the experience when I look. There is nothing in my field of vision that says the mug and table are separate. They are made up if the same sensations - light and dark and colour.
Dee

[dridhamati]

Hi Dee,

There is a wide variety of light and dark and colours - that's the experience when I look. There is nothing in my field of vision that says the mug and table are separate. They are made up if the same sensations - light and dark and colour.

And that’s the experience here also. Thank you for confirming that.

Now, still keeping with the same setup (‘mug’ on ‘table’) here is another exercise.
Again, parking thoughts aside, and just looking:
Can these various sensations (light, dark, colour) be located? (as in: can the sensations be situated in a particular place?)

All the best
Dridhamati

[Dee]

Hi Dridhamati the sensation of light, dark, colour are located out there where the mug and table are.
Best wishes
Dee

[dridhamati]

Hi Dee,

the sensation of light, dark, colour are located out there where the mug and table are.

So, parking thoughts aside, you are still able to see a ‘mug’ and a ‘table’ ‘out there’ where ‘the sensation of light, dark, colour’ are occurring.
How can that be Dee?
Please look again.
Where is this ‘out there’ coming from? Is that observation? Or is that a mind-made association of light-colour sensation equals mug?

All the best
Dridhamati

[Dee]

Hi Dridhamati Im struggling to not see mug and table. I'm off to work now until 9.

When I meditate there is an experience of sensations in relation to my body. Something in my hand (stick) being inseparable or part of my hand, my arm resting where I expect my torso to be. It's all just there in the experience of touch. I'm struggling with vision. I will keep looking.

Best wishes
D

[dridhamati]

Hi Dee,

Im struggling to not see mug and table. ... I'm struggling with vision. I will keep looking.

That’s OK Dee. Thank you for this, how about another one of the physical senses: hearing.
So:
- put some music on.
- sit comfortably.
- listen to the music.
Questions: 
What is experienced in the field of hearing?
Can this experience be located?
Please park the thoughts aside and only report using the barest qualifiers, or descriptors, without which communication could not occur.

When I meditate there is an experience of sensations in relation to my body. Something in my hand (stick) being inseparable or part of my hand, my arm resting where I expect my torso to be. It's all just there in the experience of touch.

Is it really ‘all just there in the experience of touch’?
What is written isn’t a report from direct experience, it is a bunch of labels and concepts.
Example: what is ‘my body’, what is ‘stick’, what is 'my hand’, etc.? Are these really observed ‘experience of sensations’? Or are these terms elicited in order to neatly label and categorised a set of sensations?
What actually is happening Dee?
Please remember, for the moment the exercises in direct experience have one purpose only: to see the difference between what is actual experience, and what is labels, concepts, thoughts, etc.
You need to be ruthless in the reporting: eliminate all labels, etc. That’s what is meant by ‘the barest qualifiers, or descriptors, without which communication could not occur.’

And a simple test: go outside a feel the wind on your face.
Can you see "wind"? Can you hear "wind"? Can you taste "wind"? etc. How can you show "wind" to someone? Can you hold "wind" in your hand?
Park the thoughts, remove the labels and concepts, what is "wind" Dee?

All the best
Dridhamati

[Dee]

Code: Select all

Hi Dee,

Im struggling to not see mug and table. ... I'm struggling with vision. I will keep looking.

That’s OK Dee. Thank you for this, how about another one of the physical senses: hearing.
So:
- put some music on.
- sit comfortably.
- listen to the music.

Questions: 
[

b]What is experienced in the field of hearing?
Can this experience be locatedh?[/b]
Please

park the thoughts aside and only report using the barest qualifiers, or descriptors, without which communication could not occur.

There is hearing. I can't fix it in a place where the hearing happens. The sensations - arising and passing away.

When I meditate there is an experience of sensations in relation to my body. Something in my hand (stick) being inseparable or part of my hand, my arm resting where I expect my torso to be. It's all just there in the experience of touch.

Is it really ‘all just there in the experience of touch’?
What is written isn’t a report from direct experience, it is a bunch of labels and concepts.
Example: what is ‘my body’, what is ‘stick’, what is 'my hand’, etc.? Are these really observed ‘experience of sensations’? Or are these terms elicited in order to neatly label and categorised a set of sensations?
What actually is happening Dee?
Please remember, for the moment the exercises in direct experience have one purpose only: to see the difference between what is actual experience, and what is labels, concepts, thoughts, etc.
You need to be ruthless in the reporting: eliminate all labels, etc. That’s what is meant by ‘the barest qualifiers, or descriptors, without which communication could not occur.’

And a simple test: go outside a feel the wind on your

face

. I feel sensations from the wind on my face

Can you see "wind"? Can you hear "wind"? Can you taste "wind"? etc. How can you show "wind" to someone? Can you hold "wind" in your hand?
Park the thoughts, remove the labels and concepts, what is "

wind

sensations of touch. I can't see, hear or taste the wind. I can only point to the effect it has. I can't show wind to someone.

" Dee?

All the best
Dridhamati

best wishes d

[dridhamati]

Hi Dee,

What is experienced in the field of hearing?
Can this experience be locatedh?

There is hearing. I can't fix it in a place where the hearing happens. The sensations - arising and passing away.

Yes, that’s the experience here also. Thanks for that.

Park the thoughts, remove the labels and concepts, what is "wind"?

sensations of touch. I can't see, hear or taste the wind. I can only point to the effect it has. I can't show wind to someone.

Again, yes Dee, that’s pretty much the experience here also.

Good work Dee, do you see the difference now?
Languages contain many words, like ‘wind’, ‘music, ‘mug, etc.
Now, from the perspective of direct experience, do these words:
1. Point to actual, tangible, separate objects?
or
2. Point to sensations?

Use the exercises with the mug, the music and the wind, and you can try taste and smell to complete the picture with the physical senses.

All the best
Dridhamati

[Dee]

Thanks Dridhamati I'll try taste and smell. I'm working all day tomorrow and I have an evening class. I will get back as soon as I've got something to report.
Thanks d

[Dee]

Hi Dridhamati
Point to sensations.
Taste - there are sensations arising and passing away - the same with smell.

Best wishes d

[dridhamati]

Hi Dee,

Point to sensations.
Taste - there are sensations arising and passing away - the same with smell.

Thanks for that Dee, matches the experience here.
As can be guessed, this kind of observation is not limited to the exercises presented so far in the dialogue. Any physical activity: chopping wood, carrying water (wink!), fixing dinner, having a pee, etc, presents an opportunity to observe sensations. And to discriminate between those sensations and the narrative (views, concepts, labels) that attempts to describe the activity.

Now for the sixth sense: mind.
Mind is no different than the other senses.
Looking at mind’s activity, what is observed? What arises and passes away in mind? Please describe.

All the best
Dridhamati

[Dee]

Hi Dridhamati
What arises and passes away in the mind?
Thought, images, recollections, planning - can I describe this activity as sensations. If I compare it to hearing then I can call the activity of the mind sensations, but I'm not sure if the word sensation is correct.
Best wishes d