Looking for a guide

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joelmonk
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby joelmonk » Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:59 pm

Hey Pea

Doing great thanks. Been in a workshop all day till now.
So, can you feel your ears? Or can you just feel sensation, and then thought adds a label of “ears” afterwards, based on a conceptual understanding of what ears are and where they are situated?
I see what you mean. I don't feel my ears. I just feel sensation and then label ears afterwards.
So is there a boundary there – or not? Look again.
There is no distint boundary that I can feel...
So which is it? Are you willing to go with the crazy option? Have another look, what is there in DE?
When I look from this place there is no boundary between inside and outside. Only the conceptual laballing of inside and outside.
Sit down and close your eyes. Can you please describe the direct experience that happens in this moment. Try to focus on sense perceptions only - not on what thought says about them... Do you find an entity "body"? What is there?
Sensations arise, thoughts arise, perceiving happens but there is no-one that it happens to. I will sit with this again and write back tomorrow early.

Thankyou for your support Pea!

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Pea
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Pea » Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:14 pm

Great stuff. Things are moving along well. Keep looking. And have a look at control - what happens when your hand lifts?

Look forward to hearing more from you tomorrow.


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joelmonk
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby joelmonk » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:31 pm

Hi Pea

Not as early as I hoped but hear I am.

I have been paying attention to my experience as I move through out my day. The feeling of non-separation has been more prominent. It is a sense of no-boundary and feels very normal yet there has been a lot of ease. There is a feeling of there being no-one behind my eyes or even a sense sometimes of having no body.
Have a look at control - what happens when your hand lifts?
I can't find anything that makes the decision. Obviously my hand lifts. But the thought that there must be someone making the decision I see as being just that, a thought about it rather than seeing it in direct experience. In direct experience there is just sensing, perception arising. And on some level it all as the same quality to it - of being perceiving awareness.

From here there is a lot of stillness and not much to say!

I will stay with the control thing some more - the question of who or what am I arises and more specifically - what is making choices or moving though my day.

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Pea
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Pea » Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:16 pm

Hi Joel
Great to hear from you and great that so much looking is happening, in everyday moments…
The feeling of non-separation has been more prominent. It is a sense of no-boundary and feels very normal yet there has been a lot of ease.
Lovely. :)
Obviously my hand lifts.
… or not? Does the hand always lift when there is a thought saying “lift”?
From here there is a lot of stillness and not much to say!
That is fine. Sometimes there is more thinking, sometimes less…
the question of who or what am I arises
Just look. What is there in DE? But take care not to slip off into philosophical debates, trying to 'fit' it all together.
what is making choices or moving though my day.
Our looking here is to see if there is a one, an entity that's in charge.
Are you directing the show? Or is the show just happening?

get up… walk slowly… is there a controller that controls walking? or is there just walking?
Is thought needed, to put one foot in front of the next?


When 'you' look in direct experience, can you ever find any (experiential) evidence that a thought guides actions, or that an action triggers a thought, or that a thought triggers an action? Or is it possibly the case that each of these are separate arisings in awareness, followed in each case by another arising, in the form of another thought that says that the two previous arisings are in some way connected, and claiming that the first arising is somehow able to guide, influence or control the second? If the former is the case, please give details of what you saw in direct experience that showed that there is this “cause-and-effect” link.

Happy explorations!

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joelmonk
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby joelmonk » Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:21 pm

Hey Pea

Hope you're doing well today!

I've been spending time today looking for an entity that is a controller. I must say I can't find one. Yet somehow I can't let go of the idea that there is some degree of control I have. Otherwise it feels very nihilistic. Like what's the point in having goals or ambitions or caring for things / taking action if it's just happening. And If I look in my direct experience there are preferences - for certain foods or music for example, but I can't find the I that owns those preferences.
Are you directing the show? Or is the show just happening?

get up… walk slowly… is there a controller that controls walking? or is there just walking?
Is thought needed, to put one foot in front of the next?
As I type I can't find the controller, as I move my head from side to side I can't find it either. It seems to be just happening - and there is a subtle tightness in my body / energy around that. Like I can't believe it could be that easy...or I can't believe that it's all just happening....

.....which as I sit I see as just another thought about my experience arising. Now laughter!

I must say I'm enjoying this very much!

Thanks Pea

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Pea
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Pea » Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:19 pm

Hi again Joel

Things have been going very well here today – thank you. Really pleased that you are enjoying all this exploration so much – it’s amazing, isn’t it!

In response to your reflections:
I can't let go of the idea that there is some degree of control I have. Otherwise it feels very nihilistic. Like what's the point in having goals or ambitions or caring for things / taking action if it's just happening.
Yes, it is quite understandable to have these thoughts come up… I don't want to instigate a philosophical debate and detract from our looking so look in direct experience – does the lack of controller mean that there is no care or compassionate response? It has been found that there are no boundaries, no separation in experience – yes? What arises out of this emptiness?

It feels at times like we choose but upon close inspection who is it that does the choosing?
“Well I definitely make choices” is a belief.
“I definitely do not make choices” is a belief too.
So without belief, what?
Do ‘you’ choose, or does choosing just happen?

Check this carefully!! If you find that 'you' have made a decision that is not simply a label for Life happening, please describe the process thoroughly.
What makes a moment of "decision" different from any other point in Life living itself?

It seems to be just happening
Haha! Yes!
Like I can't believe it could be that easy...or I can't believe that it's all just happening....
Exactly. Let go of those expectations and yes, it really is :-)

So have a look at these questions above but take a good look and answer also:
Are there any doubts at all about seeing through the illusion of the separate self?

Looking forward as always to hearing your responses...

Pea

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joelmonk
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby joelmonk » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:03 pm

Hey Pea

Good day to you...

I've been investigating based on your invitations.
Does the lack of controller mean that there is no care or compassionate response?
Actually there is care and a compassionate response. Today I was with a friend who was upset. I was feeling a lot of tenderness and compassion, but I couldn't find a seperate entity that owned those feelings.
It has been found that there are no boundaries, no separation in experience – yes? What arises out of this emptiness?
What seems to arise are perceptions....or... I can't find a good word for it. Stuff arises. But it all has a vibrant quality to it. At some point my awareness focuses in on a sound or thought and then at others it is more global. It seems like everything arises out of this emptiness.
Do ‘you’ choose, or does choosing just happen?
This one made me laugh. When I look at it choosing does just seem to arise. A while ago I decided to make a curry for dinner. But actually the thought 'I'll make a curry for dinner' just arose, from nowhere. There wasn't an I that made that decision.
Are there any doubts at all about seeing through the illusion of the separate self?
Good question. The inquiry around control feels like the penny beginning to drop more fully. The sense of flow or non-separation as I move through my day has been more prominent too.

But there's still a hesitation about saying I have no doubts about the illusion of the separate self. But as I look in my direct experience again I can't find anything to back my doubts up. Hmmm...will sit some more with this and get back to you.

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Pea
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Pea » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:52 pm

Ok. Have another look, is there anywhere - any little nook or cranny - where this elusive self could be hiding? Are there any stones we have left unturned?
If not, what is this hesitation?
Is there a story attached to it? Is it just a story? Have a look, and a listen - see what comes forth...



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joelmonk
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby joelmonk » Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:04 pm

Ok. Have another look, is there anywhere - any little nook or cranny - where this elusive self could be hiding? Are there any stones we have left unturned?
If not, what is this hesitation?
Is there a story attached to it? Is it just a story? Have a look, and a listen - see what comes forth...
I've had another good look and I just can't find anything. I feel a strange mixture of non-separation, presence and being disturbed or shocked. Like "shit! this shit is for real"

The hesitation seems to be a thought that 'it can't be this simple, there must be more to see....this is too simple'...and a kind of 'what now?'....

It's almost like I need to get used to how it's so simple. Or that confidence in it being so simple is growing.

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joelmonk
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby joelmonk » Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:07 pm

And thanks so much for your time and support Pea!

And then I wonder what was it that had me want to thank you, to express my gratitude....just an impulse that simply arose.

with gratitude

Joel

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Pea
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Pea » Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:24 pm

shit! this shit is for real
lol - yep, it is! Gratitude to you too - for looking so patiently and diligently :-)
It's almost like I need to get used to how it's so simple. Or that confidence in it being so simple is growing
It is both simple and never-ending... Once seen it can't be unseen.

But it sounds like doubt is crumbling away. So I will just ask again
Are there any doubts at all about seeing through the illusion of the separate self?

If the doubts are gone then please answer these clarifying questions, but take your time to answer them fully. It might also be the case that there are more doubts coming up when answering the questions, which is also fine - we can explore this as well:


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?



Look forward to hearing back.

Pea

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joelmonk
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby joelmonk » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:32 am

After I wrote my last message I went to make tea and caught a thought arising "yes, if I'm awake then that means I'm special". As I caught it it dissolved but it was disturbing as I believed it for a moment.
Are there any doubts at all about seeing through the illusion of the separate self?
There is still some doubt. I want to say there isn't but somehow I still find it difficult to say 'I have no doubt there is no separate self' even though I cannot find it or have found any evidence of it during our exploration.

Let me see if I can get to the bottom of this. There are perhaps some ideas about what awakening to no self should be like. For instance, the feeling of wanting to get it is still there. And even wanting to get it for you.

And this morning I was deliberating a decision and felt some worry and tension around it. If there's no doubt about the illusion of no self would there still be worry?

So it seems I have an expectation about how things will be different once I wake up. That any arising of making things mine will fall away.

Looking forward to your reply

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Pea
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Pea » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:11 am

Thank you so much for your honesty and integrity Joel. There is no hurry here, so let's just keep looking at these stories.
There is still some doubt.
Doubt is a particularly strong fetter for Buddhists and questions about what seeing through the illusion of self mean, where it fits with regards to awakening or enlightenment and the question of being special - these all muddy the waters. Seeing through the illusion of self is just a step. And the gate is Gateless. 'Awakening' continues to unfold – so don’t think you have “got” anywhere (or anything)!

even though I cannot find it or have found any evidence of it during our exploration
Santa is just a story, yes? He is not real now and he never was. Does hearing a story about him make him become real?
The same for the self – can’t be found except in our stories – but does hearing (and even believing) that story make it real? Have a look.

If there's no doubt about the illusion of no self would there still be worry?
Sensations still arise, there is still the dance of feeling and thought – life still continues.
There is a view that 'getting it' is tantamount to kind of somehow seeing it all the time, or being in some kind of state in which negative emotions or problems don’t arise. Not true! The direct knowing of no-self may be recollected at any time, but states still continue to come and go - pleasant, unpleasant, 'positive', 'negative'. However, that said, changes will be noticed, some possibly quite dramatic, including in relation to suffering arising from a pre-occupation with a separate self that simply doesn't exist!
any arising of making things mine will fall away.
The peace is NOT about there only being peaceful thoughts. The peace is there no matter what thoughts show up. It’s not about what thought says – it’s being able to recollect that direct-knowing.
this morning I was deliberating a decision and felt some worry and tension around it
People often confuse sense of self with sense of tightness, frustration, contraction, resistance. None of these sensations is a sensation of self.
Sense of being could be called sense of self, I, but it's all just mere labels.
Sense of self is assumed, till it's seen as non existent.
So let’s look at this – do it with doubt, as it arises. Watch the interplay – sensation arising in the body, thoughts and feelings dancing together, story being created – keep it simple and look to see if there is someone behind it.

Report back on what you find.
Just to let you know I will be away this weekend and without wifi - but I have tapatalk on my phone so I will still be able to respond... I just won't be able to use "quote". So apologies if my responses are a little truncated.


Pea.

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joelmonk
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby joelmonk » Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:06 am

Good morning Pea

Much gratitude for your last message which did cut through beliefs and assumptions I was holding onto.
So let’s look at this – do it with doubt, as it arises. Watch the interplay – sensation arising in the body, thoughts and feelings dancing together, story being created – keep it simple and look to see if there is someone behind it.
Since reading your message yesterday something has relaxed in me. It's funny, I can't find the doubt today. There is only a presence. There is no self experiencing the world that I can find. Only a sense of the world arising in my awareness. Thoughts and sensations arise.

Is there any doubt? I feel sensation in my belly. Also a vibrancy. But again I can't find any kind of Joel that has them. This presence has been here all morning without effort. Yesterday too. No sense of needing to hold onto it.
the gate is gateless
I'm curious what this means. Maybe I should try to answer. The sense of discovering there is no self is not something happening. But the absence of something happening. So something happens. But it happens to no one and is not something to 'have'.

I hope you're having a wonderful weekend!

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Pea
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Pea » Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:38 pm

Hello Joel. So lovely to read. And thank you yes, I am having a lovely weekend.

Do you feel ready to look now at those 6 questions? If so, then take your time to look at them and reply as suits...

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?

Enjoy the weekend too.



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