A guide for once and for all please

[Lauren]

Hi Viven,

Going back to the beginning, hahaha ... your initial questions:
What are my expectations, how will life change, how will I change, what will be the difference?

Just right off the bat it is so very interesting, of course nothing needs to change, for what really would and to what. And that change implies time as well an object in that time that is change-able and of course what is separate and outside of that to recognize this change? It is a funny thing, it seemed like many words and their meanings were clear or assumed to have meaning and been understood ... and now a word comes up (ie change) and it draws a blank ... like what does that mean anyway ... it is total flibber flabber.

And then, a total irony ... things have seemed to have changed in that the piss and vinegar has been taken out of a lot of meanings, shoulds, expectations ... maybe? That is just how things are occurring here now, there is no requirement that that be so, not that a requirement, aka a thought about "should" makes a difference either hahaha.

(I don't seem to be able to clip quotes from the first page our conversation, so I will just point and paraphrase)

The bit on Tues. 2/3 where you talk about conditioning, "I" thoughts and expecting them to be completely gone when seeing through the self has happened is so extraordinarily helpful. Of course looking into any thought, including the one that says, a particular "I" thought indicates big horrible things, will prove to have no root as it is just another thought ... there are no exceptions to this. Yet, that one clear pointing and investigation of that expectation seemed to help cut through a lot of b/s. Thank you!

Another quote same day: Fear of death response ... I want to put that on a T-shirt ... man! your wording was beauty on a stick!! (not to mention totally perfect)

"Currently would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words right now"
Wow, there are no words for this, but there is just nothing there ... those things seem to be happening, but there is no belief put on top of it (or a believer) ... at this moment looking at that the notion of that belief seems impossible ... and the notion of what does that even mean? and it occurs to no one no where and means nothing too ...

Ok, more later ... this is really wonderful going back and reading and taking another look. This process and your pointing is really extraordinary and beautiful, there is a lump in the throat and gratitude abound!!!

Love indeed,
Lauren

[Lauren]

Hi Vivien,

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
What is the thinker of thoughts?

It is just really interesting to look at this again and the "I", kind of like looking at the word change or control or whichever one was being looked at yesterday ... words and concepts that always had an assumed unquestioned meaning/value/reality just don't anymore ... it is kind of like being in a room where everyone is speaking a foreign language ... there is sound but no meaning at all.

Has it been seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Do others have responsibilities?

Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?
Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?

Any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

It has been seen. The goose has never been in the bottle (there has never been a goose nor a bottle). And no, there is no chooser or decider. It just doesn't exist. Is there an "I" responsible for anything at all .... no not possible.

Others? Hmmmm, interesting, when the looking goes "out" toward the notion of "others", and there are a couple of residual stories of particular others that have been held in blame/responsibility ... there is subtle resistance/tension to seeing that clearly. - so there is a bit of a confusion found.

This is great going back and reviewing things (still a bit more to do), this is really wonderful to go back and really see what is clear and what is not with a magnifying glass!!!!

Love,
Lauren

[Vivien]

Dear Lauren,

I’m back. You’ve done beautiful looking. :)

Vivien: “visceral resistance to the thoughts” – What is the ACTUAL experience of ‘resistance’?

Lauren: It is simply a tension or clenching in the body ... that without the label "resistance" is nothing but a sensation

So, is there resistance at all, can resistance be experienced at all?
Or is there only THOUGHTS ABOUT resistance, but NEVER an ACTUAL resistance?

Others? Hmmmm, interesting, when the looking goes "out" toward the notion of "others", and there are a couple of residual stories of particular others that have been held in blame/responsibility ... there is subtle resistance/tension to seeing that clearly. - so there is a bit of a confusion found.

OK, going back to the topic of resistance. In this story about others and a resistance to see it…

Is there REALLY an actual experience of ‘resistance’, or is there ONLY thoughts ABOUT ‘resistance’?

“So there is a bit of a confusion found” – What is the ACTUAL experience of confusion?

This is great going back and reviewing things (still a bit more to do), this is really wonderful to go back and really see what is clear and what is not with a magnifying glass!!!!

OK, just keep going. I’ll be here to comment on them :)

Love, Vivien

[Lauren]

Hi Vivien,

Welcome back, I hope your trip was wonderful! Thanks for the kind words about the looking too :) Sorry for a bit of a delay here, the job has been a little whirlwindy this past week or so. (Real estate, so sometimes the hours are all over the place and I find myself at the end of the day just wanting to lay on the floor and drool, and something I do!)

So, is there resistance at all, can resistance be experienced at all?
Or is there only THOUGHTS ABOUT resistance, but NEVER an ACTUAL resistance?

Oh goodness, hahaha, no, there is no resistance ... what does that even mean when looked at, because what is there to resist too? There is nothing that is is the "resistor", and nothing that is the "resisted" so what on earth is resistance ... made up! Two empty thoughts and it is not like they can square off ... OK, wow, this is great!

Is there REALLY an actual experience of ‘resistance’, or is there ONLY thoughts ABOUT ‘resistance’?

“So there is a bit of a confusion found” – What is the ACTUAL experience of confusion?

Same as above re: resistance. Actual experience of confusion ... looking at "confusion" at this moment and it really is a total blank.

Looking at resistance and seeing it for what it is (or not as the case may be), confusion becomes kind of foreign and incomprehensible too.

While looking and being in this kind of "I don't know" state ... a thought came up that there is a sense of understanding or a sense of misunderstanding ... and looking at that thought or what does that sense mean, well, those are just thoughts occurring too. They occur in/part of/not separate from that which is a priori or always so; a thought declaring understanding or not understanding(confusion) is just a thought with no inherent reality that can "know" or "not know" anything ...

It is interesting when looking, (as seen from here) it is not like there is understanding as an added layer but instead a total lack of recognition of meanings that seemed to be totally assumed before.

Ok, I am going to come back to this a bit later to continue the looking back over the other post.

This exploration and looking is just amazing! Totally simple and yet just wild! You are the ultimate razors edge to cut through the b/s, it is a total gift, thank you!!!

Love,
Lauren

[Vivien]

Dear Lauren,

Oh goodness, hahaha, no, there is no resistance ... what does that even mean when looked at, because what is there to resist too? There is nothing that is is the "resistor", and nothing that is the "resisted" so what on earth is resistance ... made up! Two empty thoughts and it is not like they can square off ... OK, wow, this is great!

Beautiful :)

Ok, I am going to come back to this a bit later to continue the looking back over the other post.

OK. Just keep doing it and post what has been seen. I’ll be here to watch the show, and comment when ‘necessary’ :)

This exploration and looking is just amazing! Totally simple and yet just wild! You are the ultimate razors edge to cut through the b/s, it is a total gift, thank you!!!

You’re more than welcome :)

Love, Vivien

[Lauren]

Hi Viven,

Ok wonderful! Enjoy the show and yes, when "necessary" please do pop in, haha ... beautiful!!

I seem to be running into quite a bit of static with the site and while trying to get on get the LOOK page with the cat's eyes ... says something to the extent of Seeing with no Seer ... god the beauty of it, so simple and seemingly completely missed! The futility of trying to grasp via a concept and there is just no way to explain that ... but I will say it again, thank you so very much ... your continual pointing just seemed to pull the pants down on the whole thing.

Going back to an earlier post and you are asking about "I" and thought (2/6 posting by me), you had asked "Can "you" stop a thought, Can "you" predict ... , Can "you"choose ... It is seen that your pointing point :) was pretty completely missed. Instead the answer goes into the story of what happens ... not whether there is anyone there for it to happen to or cause a happening ... which turns out to be no!

And when not looking, is there any, or the thinker of thoughts is always just assumed?

Wow, talk about the pith right there! Is the thinker of thoughts always assumed, that is the crux of the whole matter!
An interesting thing takes place as it is looked at from here, now (as if there is anything but) and trying to "see" what was assumed ... I guess like trying to see the rope as a snake again will have to do as an analogy ... and it just cannot be seen or unseen or whatever the hell it would be ... as there is nothing there ... no thing, so to see or unsee would of course be impossible ... ahhh flippity flop go the words haha!

The thoughts and mental images are real only as arising thoughts and mental images, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?

Seeing this creates quite a sense of easement in that the "meaning" has lost its potency as the content has none.

Mmmmmmm, taking another look is really wonderful and I am kind of savoring it and moving back through quite slowly ... to be continued ... :)

Love,
Lauren

[Vivien]

Dear Lauren,

How things are going? Loved your last post :)

You don’t have to go through all our conversation if you don’t feel the need to. But if you find it useful then you’re welcome to do that.

Whet it is clearly seen that there has never been a self, as a next step, there are further six questions to ask as part of this guiding process. The response is then shared with other guides. They may or may not have further questions.

Once it is confirmed by other guides that seeing through the illusion of the self has happened, our conversation in this thread will come to an end, however you won’t be left alone. There is a whole community of others on FB (exclusive LU community), who have also seen through the ‘self’. Further inquiries and discussions happen there.

Are you ready for the six questions or would you like to continue going through the whole conversation?

Love, Vivien

[Lauren]

Hi Vivien,

Thanks, it has been wonderful going back, but the last couple of looks no comment came to relay.

I would love the 6 questions. Fun!

Love,
Lauren

[Vivien]

Dear Lauren,

So here are the six questions. Please answer as clearly as possible and with as much detail as needed. Don’t forget to add everyday examples from your experience for question 5.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Love, Vivien

[Lauren]

Hi Vivien,

1. Is there a separate “self”, “me” at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is seen to be no such thing as a self or a me, and certainly not in any way shape nor form, which is its own sort of funny right there. Things that were assumed to have been any of these things, from a self or me or even a shape and form proved to be phantasmagorical, comprised of nothing. And the same goes for was there ever … there was never an ever and still isn’t. It is seen that it is not about the goose getting to some state and really getting the whole nature of the bottle and creating this amazing dance of mystical understanding between goose and bottle. There never was a goose, nor a bottle for one to be in the other to begin with. There is no way to explain that until it is suddenly seen and completely obvious, and in fact cannot be unseen.

2. Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Trying to look at the illusion of separate self seems to be impossible because there is no thing to look at.. What seemed to be so and assumed, now has no actual meaning to it.

In terms of when did it start and how it works … well it didn’t start and it doesn’t work, that was what was seen … there is no IT to find, fix, wake up or go to sleep …

3. How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

I don’t know in a way. There is no requirement for things to be in any certain way from the perspective of what comes across the screen, for who would demand such a requirement anyway haha. How do you point to what is not there, which was never there but now the belief that seemed so solid and real is no longer so. The piss and vinegar seems to be taken out a lot of VERY important things, like the content of passing thoughts , purpose, meaning, what am I going to do with my life (hahaha, that is a beauty!!) … which tends to make for a lighter step. And yet, nothing has really changed either …

4. What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I really have no idea about a last bit or what that even means really. There was nothing that went over, but rather that there was no over to be pushed, or object to be pushed …

But what I can say is that Vivien is fantastic at pointing pointing pointing, and with each example asking for a look into a very specific place/experience as seen from here, she weeded through story over and over again to help point to the pith (that turned out to be pith-less!) , she is totally razor sharp and specific … it seemed to create very fresh looking.


5. Describe decision, intention, free will, choice, and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

It is quite an amazing thing that these concepts that seemed to actually mean something, turn out to be meaningless fluff, how grand!

Take choice for example, what is there to choose, what would a choice even be, is there some real thing that is “choice” and then, what is choosing? There can be nothing found in any of it. And it also implies that there is a then when this whole sequence takes place.

The whole thing is flim-flam, no thing to any of it. It is like looking to a thought to think another thought … totally impossible.

There can’t be anything called responsibility, it is the exact same thing as above. Who/what is this owner of responsibility and what is this thing called responsibility? There is nothing there to do/own/convey as well as nothing to be owned/done/conveyed …

Which brings us to the possibility of do/owned/conveyed … well here we go again!

6. Anything to add?

Thank you! There are no words, but there is a sense of wonderment, gratitude and laughter at this moment. Vivien, you are an artist, beauty on a stick!!!

Love!
Lauren

[Vivien]

Dear Lauren,

Thank you for answering the questions.

Thank you! There are no words, but there is a sense of wonderment, gratitude and laughter at this moment. Vivien, you are an artist, beauty on a stick!!!

You're more than welcome :) But 'you' haha :) did the looking :)

So, I'm happy to say that the guides are satisfied that you have seen through the illusion of a separate self and none of them has any further questions.

I'm sending you a private message, so please check your inbox.

Love, Vivien