Liberation, hopefully...

[JimmyG]

Hey David

I said earlier that direct experience cannot be grasped by imagination and thinking, you need to look, to look directly at what is. Just what is, raw experience such seeing, hearing, touching, smelling and tasting. Our mind is labelling everything and creating apparent stories but that’s not what we are here for. We are here to look, to directly experience what is?

Listen to some music. We are now taking a very close and detailed look at what is directly experienced (and we'll come back to chooser, choice, choosing etc lateron):

Do you experience a separate or independent perceiver? What would the separate perceiver be like?
Do you experience instruments and/or voices independent of sound?

DON’T GO BY WHAT YOU THINK MUST BE TRUE IN ORDER TO EXPLAIN PERCEPTION. INSTEAD GO BY YOUR DIRECT EXPERIENCE.

Do you experience something that is making sound?
Do you experience music to be independent of hearing?
Do you experience a sound waiting to be heard, a sound outside the scope of your hearing?

I’m curious what you come up with.
Rolly


PS You might consider to use the quote function, see viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660 for instructions.

[JimmyG]

How's it going, David?

Wish you well
Rolly

[lochie]

Hello Rolly

Apologies for my long absence. This has been due to my being very busy but also due to doubts and negative feelings about this process, which tend to make it slide down the priority list. (My ego asserting itself?) There is another problem: Your last instructions on February 2 about listening to music have disappeared off the BB. I have a copy in a Word document. Do I paste that back in in my reply, or do you recover it?

Best regards,

David

[JimmyG]

Hi David, nice to have you back.

Here's my last post of Feb 2 which has disappeared at your end:

I said earlier that direct experience cannot be grasped by imagination and thinking, you need to look, to look directly at what is. Just what is, raw experience such seeing, hearing, touching, smelling and tasting. Our mind is labelling everything and creating apparent stories but that’s not what we are here for. We are here to look, to directly experience what is?

Listen to some music. We are now taking a very close and detailed look at what is directly experienced (and we'll come back to chooser, choice, choosing etc lateron):

Do you experience a separate or independent perceiver? What would the separate perceiver be like?
Do you experience instruments and/or voices independent of sound?

DON’T GO BY WHAT YOU THINK MUST BE TRUE IN ORDER TO EXPLAIN PERCEPTION. INSTEAD GO BY YOUR DIRECT EXPERIENCE.

Do you experience something that is making sound?
Do you experience music to be independent of hearing?
Do you experience a sound waiting to be heard, a sound outside the scope of your hearing?

I’m still curious what you come up with.
Rolly

[lochie]

Thanks Rolly. First another apology. Your instructions had not disappeared they had merely moved to page 2.Also re using the Quotes Function, please will you send me a link.

Now my answers.
Do you experience a separate or independent perceiver? NO The music and the listener are one.
What would the separate perceiver be like? I suppose myself.
Do you experience instruments and/or voices independent of sound? Yes if I can see the instrument or speaker.

DON’T GO BY WHAT YOU THINK MUST BE TRUE IN ORDER TO EXPLAIN PERCEPTION. INSTEAD GO BY YOUR DIRECT EXPERIENCE.

Do you experience something that is making sound? YES
Do you experience music to be independent of hearing? YES, the music will be present whether or not I am listening.
Do you experience a sound waiting to be heard, a sound outside the scope of your hearing? NO

Regards, David

[JimmyG]

Hi David

Thank you for your replying which certainly maneuvers in the right direction.

David worte:
Also re using the Quotes Function, please will you send me a link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... 0%E2%80%9D

Let me know if it doesn’t work.

David wrote: NO The music and the listener are one.

Ok, there’s no separation, no independent perceiver. Could we say that music and listener are just one happening, no division whatsoever? How does it feel to see that there’s no separation between what is heard and hearer, hearing happens?

Rolly worte: What would the separate perceiver be like?
David wrote: I suppose myself.

What do you see as a separate ‘myself’? If there’s no separation between music and listener, where do you see a separate ‘self’? Can you draw a line between a perceived ‘myself’ and sound? Can you find a separate self in direct experience? Does it have a shape, color or any perceivable connotations?

Rolly worte: Do you experience instruments and/or voices independent of sound?
David wrote: Yes if I can see the instrument or speaker.

Yes, you can see the instrument or singer but can you perceive the instruments or voices independent of sound? In other words could you draw a line between instrument/voice and sound? Or is there only one happening such as instrument/voice/sound?

Rolly wrote: Do you experience something that is making sound?
David wrote: YES

As we just have seen music and listener are one. How then would ‘a something making music’ be experienced? In direct experience would it have a shape, color or form?

Rolly worte: Do you experience music to be independent of hearing?
David wrote: YES, the music will be present whether or not I am listening.

By listening to music we may seem to listen or we may seem to do something else, maybe indulge in a conversation – music still happens and is heard.
Notice that there is a slight nuance in question and your reply. Can you really know by direct experience whether music is experienced independently of hearing? How would that be possible? Or do you have to rely on other factors, such as concepts, believes and thoughts?

Rolly worte: Do you experience a sound waiting to be heard, a sound outside the scope of your hearing?
David wrote: NO

When we find the music is not experience independently of hearing, no sound exists outside of your hearing, right.

Please again, let all question sink in, don’t fly over – that can mean all the difference in the world – so to speak 

Warm Regards,
Rolly

[lochie]

Hi Rolly,

I'm afraid I can't get the hang of the Quotes so I have just pasted in your text and my answers

David wrote: NO The music and the listener are one.

Rolly: Ok, there’s no separation, no independent perceiver. Could we say that music and listener are just one happening, no division whatsoever?
David: If I listen to music on the radio there is a physical separation, the musicians are in the concert hall and I am at home.
Rolly: How does it feel to see that there’s no separation between what is heard and hearer, hearing happens?
David: I don’t feel that. I think that listener and musicians are separate. I think that the music is a shared experience, a bridge linking musicians and listener. But musicians and listener remain distinct entities.
Rolly worte: What would the separate perceiver be like?
David wrote: I suppose myself.

Rolly: What do you see as a separate ‘myself’? If there’s no separation between music and listener, where do you see a separate ‘self’? Can you draw a line between a perceived ‘myself’ and sound? Can you find a separate self in direct experience? Does it have a shape, color or any perceivable connotations?

David: I’m sorry I’m back tracking here. When I say there is no separation between music and listener I mean that David’s sense of self is temporarily absorbed into the music (as when I listen to a particularly beautiful Mozart passage). But music is sound waves, however beautiful, and David is a physical entity, living in the present moment.
Rolly worte: Do you experience instruments and/or voices independent of sound?
David wrote: Yes if I can see the instrument or speaker.

Rolly: Yes, you can see the instrument or singer but can you perceive the instruments or voices independent of sound? In other words could you draw a line between instrument/voice and sound? Or is there only one happening such as instrument/voice/sound?

David: No I can see the violin and hear its sound when it is played. The violin has a separate existence from the music and continues to exist when the music stops, i.e. when it is no longer being played.
Rolly wrote: Do you experience something that is making sound?
David wrote: YES

As we just have seen music and listener are one. How then would ‘a something making music’ be experienced? In direct experience would it have a shape, color or form?
Rolly worte: Do you experience music to be independent of hearing?
David wrote: YES, the music will be present whether or not I am listening.

By listening to music we may seem to listen or we may seem to do something else, maybe indulge in a conversation – music still happens and is heard.
Notice that there is a slight nuance in question and your reply. Can you really know by direct experience whether music is experienced independently of hearing? How would that be possible? Or do you have to rely on other factors, such as concepts, believes and thoughts?
Rolly worte: Do you experience a sound waiting to be heard, a sound outside the scope of your hearing?
David wrote: NO

Rolly: When we find the music is not experience independently of hearing, no sound exists outside of your hearing, right.

David: I don’t really think the musical analogy is taking me anywhere. I have continued to read Gateless Gatecrashers. I have fundamental problems with the idea that “Life just happens, and we have no say in it.” The idea that decisions happen on their own, that there is no one to take responsibility for those decisions and that life looks after itself, strikes me as implausible and socially and morally corrosive. This is a recipe for doing nothing in the world. We all make choices from what to have for breakfast to important decisions which affect our lives and our families. It is morally suspect because if life just happens we will have no sense of duty, morality or compassion. And life would rapidly collapse into anarchy.

While I fully accept that there is no permanent, unchanging self, I am certain that in the present moment there is a distinct entity called David who needs to make decisions in his daily life and who should try to make the right ones.

[JimmyG]

Hi David

Thank you for your extensive post, which obviously needs some more consideration. I will answer you tomorrow since I'm busy tonight.

Warm Regards
Rolly

[lochie]

Thanks Rolly

[JimmyG]

Hi David

Thanks a lot for the extensive post. I can see that you put great effort in this. The thing with direct experience is, that once we start truly looking, our mind comes in, saying, this can’t be it, this I do not understand, this is ridiculous and probably much more. It the mind is perfectly right because our mind neither can grasp this nor could it understand. That’s why we only go by direct experience.

David wrote: I'm afraid I can't get the hang of the Quotes

Maybe just play with the editor, eventually you might find out.

David wrote: If I listen to music on the radio there is a physical separation, the musicians are in the concert hall and I am at home.

Ok, there are a number of assumptions here. Let’s go into details then:
Is there physical separation in direct experience? Can you find any boundaries or draw any lines? What is the evidence of separation except the concepts and thinking? Are there any musicians, is there any hall when you’re at home or is this too just conceptualization of what you think it’s there instead of looking what is there by direct sensory perception? There’s just this – seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching.

David wrote: I think that listener and musicians are separate. I think that the music is a shared experience, a bridge linking musicians and listener. But musicians and listener remain distinct entities.

Again, what proof do you have of any separation in direct experience? What are the boundaries or how do you draw lines?
And again don’t look for concepts such as ‘bridge linking musicians and listener’. Instead stay with direct experience? Can you make out any separation between sound, what is heard, and you as
the hearer? Again, where are the boundaries? Is there any evidence for any boundary?
See if you can find a distinction between musicians and listener apart from thought concepts? Just look! What can you find by raw experience, seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling?

Rolly worte: What would the separate perceiver be like?
David wrote: I suppose myself.

When I asked about what a separate perceiver would be like, I mean this: we normally assume that there are boundaries to ourselves or myself. And we then tend to use various phenomena as evidence that boundaries exist. Find out if there are any actual, findable boundaries of yourself in direct experience. By "yourself" what I mean is whatever it is that you know to be yourself - entirely non-conceptual. Yourself is what you absolutely cannot doubt. You can doubt the body, roles, thoughts, sensations, beliefs, and all else. But yourself is not something you can doubt. So see if yourself has boundaries.

David wrote: I’m sorry I’m back tracking here. When I say there is no separation between music and listener I mean that David’s sense of self is temporarily absorbed into the music (as when I listen to a particularly beautiful Mozart passage). But music is sound waves, however beautiful, and David is a physical entity, living in the present moment.

Well, let’s see what you find in the forgoing questioning.

Rolly worte: Do you experience instruments and/or voices independent of sound?
David wrote: Yes if I can see the instrument or speaker.

The question is not whether you can see instruments and/or voices (which by the way is obviously not the case unless you’re at a concert or some other act) The question is whether you experience instruments and/or voices independent of sound? Or is it more like instrument and sound are heard simultaneously as one happening?

David wrote: No I can see the violin and hear its sound when it is played. The violin has a separate existence from the music and continues to exist when the music stops, i.e. when it is no longer being played.

When you listen to a violin do you perceive a separate violin? Can you differentiate between the violin and what is heard just by listening? What is the evidence of that?

Rolly wrote: Do you experience something that is making sound?
David wrote: YES

In direct experience can you really experience something that is making sound? How can you proof this assumption?

Rolly worte: Do you experience music to be independent of hearing?
David wrote: YES, the music will be present whether or not I am listening.

Yes that’s right. But, as always, do you experience music to be something different than what is heard? Pay attention to the slight nuance of this question. Is sound or music independent of the hearing, independent of what is heard? Or, again, is it one happening?

Rolly worte: Do you experience a sound waiting to be heard, a sound outside the scope of your hearing?
David wrote: NO

Good, that’s clear. Can you see that sound, the heard and the hearer altogether make out the hearing at this moment?

David: I don’t really think the musical analogy is taking me anywhere.

Just keep on track, you’re doing fine. Answer these questions with fresh looking, don’t go into thoughts, concepts or assumptions. Only just look by direct experience, what is exclusively there, here and now.

David wrote: I have continued to read Gateless Gatecrashers. I have fundamental problems with the idea that “Life just happens, and we have no say in it.” The idea that decisions happen on their own, that there is no one to take responsibility for those decisions and that life looks after itself, strikes me as implausible and socially and morally corrosive. This is a recipe for doing nothing in the world. We all make choices from what to have for breakfast to important decisions which affect our lives and our families. It is morally suspect because if life just happens we will have no sense of duty, morality or compassion. And life would rapidly collapse into anarchy.

Remember David, we are not here for assumptions and concepts. We are here to look, honestly looking what is there in direct experience – full stop. Please sit with the above cited questions and find out for yourself whether your assumptions are of direct experience, a result of truly looking, what’s here and now, or whether they originates in thought wrapped up as concepts.

While I fully accept that there is no permanent, unchanging self, I am certain that in the present moment there is a distinct entity called David who needs to make decisions in his daily life and who should try to make the right ones.

Of course decisions apparently have to be made on a daily basis, no doubt about that. Now we are exploring the nature of decision making, choosing, intending and so on in direct experience which is somewhat mysteriously different than in what we’re used to through conceptualization.

Sit with each question. Let me know what you find then.

[lochie]

Thanks Rolly, I'll go away and apply...

[JimmyG]

Alright, David, I'm curious what comes up.

[lochie]

Hello Rolly,

Reading through our dialogue I am finding the issues quite confusing. Please would you state again the single, core question which I have to consider?

Thank you,

David

[JimmyG]

Hallo David

I did not receive any email alert when you posted.

I will come back to your request in due time.

Rolly

[JimmyG]

Here I am already.

David, you have not answered the questions in my posting of February 18. Best if you answer each question there separately. This will provide the basis of this dialogue. The core question might be that you 'look'.

I look forward to your posting.
Rolly