hi Dacre, way home this way...

[Ilona]

hi Dacre, thank you for a very nice message.
please introduce yourself here a little and let's start digging.

what do you expect from this conversation?
what do you imagine seeing the truth is gonna be like?

make a list of all that you are hoping for and do so without holding back, with 100% honesty.

looking forward to your answer.
much love.

[dacre]

Hi Ilona, I have been seeking for almost 30 years. Started with Buddhism, meditation retreats, etc, then over the years much involvement in New Age, healing, motivational seminars, and with numerous often very clear spiritual teachers. Strangely, I seemed to gain a lot from everything I have done only to lose it months, weeks, days, sometimes only hours later. None of it amounted to anything is my feeling now. Wasted money, wasted life.
From this conversation I expect the truth, whatever that is. I expect that the eternal, infernal seeking and endless longing will come to an end.
I imagine that "seeing the truth" may be a non-event, but it will mean that life will be living itself, beautifully, spontaneously, with all its ups and downs, but without the interference of an I who imagines that it controls everything and needs to control everything and with all the exhaustive burdens, guilt, and heavy responsibility that goes with that.
I have suffered with anxiety and depression almost my entire life. While I don't expect this lifelong habit to change overnight necessarily, I do hope that seeing the "me" for what it is will remove the shame and self-blame associated with these states, to allow life to flow, open up and sort itself out naturally.
Dacre

[Ilona]

it will mean that life will be living itself, beautifully, spontaneously, with all its ups and downs, but without the interference of an I

That is already the case. Life is life-ing and no I is interfering with that.
Let's get you seeing that.


Tell me, where do the thoughts come from? Can you control them, can you stop thinking at will?
Just take a good look and write what comes up.

[dacre]

Yes, that is already the case, but the content of the mind is filled in part with thoughts about how I am in partial control and have a role to play. Intellectually I know this is not the case, and even direct looking seems not to support it but the feeling nevertheless persists.
"Where do thoughts come from?" They arise from nothing, from nowhere. Or kind of like some space around the head area. I cannot control them or I would certainly have better ones than I usually do. On the other hand the mind seems to be able to be programmed to some degree. Is there an I entity doing this? No. Again just thoughts arising..
I definitely cannot stop thinking at will, though thoughts will quieten on their own when left alone to just be, eg. with meditation, etc.

[Ilona]

Content of the mind is just thoughts. Do thoughts have to be true? Thoughts can be about real or about unreal.
But they are never the real. So if you don't take that content seriously, is there a problem with anything?
Life is already full. Including that feeling of control. Is there anything personal about that feeling? If you look closer, can you catch it when it's felt?
Control apear to be coming of me. But see if it's true. Is there a controller?

[dacre]

Yeah, there is nothing in the mind but thoughts, feelings, imagination. Some thoughts seem to be truer pointers than others. But even thoughts about real things aren't actually real. The thought 'tree' is never the tree itself..
"If you don't take that content seriously, is there a problem with anything?" No, there isn't. I was going to say, what about real "problems" in life that you have to take seriously? The content of thoughts seems to matter then. But they don't really do they? Great sadness or grief or anger can happen on its own. It doesn't need an ongoing thought commentary to translate everything that happens. Life can live itself through the body and mind through its natural intelligence with or without the content of thought. Anger isn't a problem unless you 'think' it is.
The feeling of "control" can be a part of life. And no there is nothing personal about that feeling. There can't be. It appears to come from 'me', but me is just another thought arising, as is the feeling/thought of control.
And yet there is still a subtle feeling of a controller here. So I will have to look at the whole mechanism a while longer and then get back to you.

[Ilona]

Great! You are getting close.
Yes, life goes on including thoughts about life and them thoughts are only commentary, not the driving force of life.

So now look closer at language and how it's working.
Every noun points to some object, real or imaginary.
Every verb points to action

Put them both together and we get a sentence that is a label for movement, action, doing.

I walk, you read, fingers type, batman flies and table stands.
Is there I in walking?
Is there you in reading?
Is it fingers typing?
Does table do standing?

Play with this a bit and tell me, what is the word I pointing to?
Is there a doer in the doing?
Is there a thinker in thinking?

Sending love.

[dacre]

Hi Ilona,
"I walk, you read, fingers type, batman flies and table stands.
Is there I in walking?
Is there you in reading?
Is it fingers typing?
Does table do standing?"

There is no "I" in walking, no "you" in reading, the fingers don't 'do' typing, and the table doesn't do standing. This, as you say, is all a function of how language operates. It deludes the mind into thinking that there is a subject and object, a separate person who is initiating the action. But this is merely a description in words. All of the above actions are simply happening. Then there is an interpretation after the fact that "I" did it or whatever. It can be subtle and insidious, but ultimately it's all words or thoughts. And words or thoughts are not the reality that they are pointing to.
'I am sitting'. I can see that the I in this sentence is completely superfluous, unnecessary. What we label sitting is just happening, or is. Yet words aren't a problem when you don't take them for reality, but simply as tools to be used as needed.
"What is the word I pointing to?"
Perhaps I can say that the word I is pointing to the action or state of the body/mind, eg. I am sitting, provides information on what is happening. On the other hand, the word I is not really pointing to anything, as the I is a fiction, a word that is part of a story, not a real, actual thing.
"Is there a doer in the doing?" Again, it's only language that says there's a doer, you can't find one in reality. There is simply the doing. There doesn't have to be a doer. Things happen or don't happen. No doer, except in language, in words, in interpretation. Not in reality.
"Is there a thinker in thinking?" No. There can't be if thoughts just come out of nowhere, out of thin air. Any initiator of thoughts in any case would just be another thought, with no thinker behind that either.
It seems like thoughts just arise on their own, probably due to genetics, habits and environmental conditioning. They just appear, just are, like a bird sings or dog barks. But we think they're ours and suffering and seeking of some kind inevitably ensues. So yeah, in a literal sense, I'd say the word I points to nothing in reality. There's no actual I or me or mine, just life happening spontaneously. And lots of stories!

[Ilona]

Awesome!
How does it feel to see this?

[dacre]

"How does it feel to see this?"
I don't really feel anything that much. Everything I've written down I have known for many years. Although I think it might be the first time I've actually written it down. There has been a lot of depression here for a long time and it still persists.
As for the seeing through the illusion of a 'me' or 'I'. In my twenties I saw several psychiatrists with the central problem that I did not have a "self", there was simply nothing there. Nobody at home. This was diagnosed as Depersonalisation Disorder (probably erroneously). There is a feeling here that all our descriptions of life and reality are conceptual, almost kind of arbitrary and made up, but what we are and what life is is non-conceptual. Just is. All explanations are bullshit. Which certainly doesn't mean they're not worthwhile! Or that stories aren't fun and entertaining. All action-reaction. Neurons firing in the brain. "I" am their product not their cause. Everything on automatic. One Universal whole. No separation. No separation from life. We ARE life.
So I suppose I mean to say that deep down life is 'good', in a non-value judgement kind of way. How does it feel? There is sometimes being carried away by the story, other times clarity. Sometimes sky high elation, but mostly depression. Life expressing itself!
Thank you Ilona. Your pointers are very, very clear and help me concentrate and clarify things. I feel better because of it. No doubt about it.

[Ilona]

This is cool, you can open up, all those years you have been seeing it. Wow.
Depression? How is it feeling these days?
What is the main feeling there? Can you identify it? What is behind those feelings?

:)

[dacre]

Hi Ilona, I am going to have to log off in a minute but will think about the depression over the next day or so, what's the core feeling or reason behind it and so on. I do know it's confusing and there are many reasons I can think of. But will get back to you..

[Ilona]

Cool,spend some time with it. But don't over think it, don't look for the reason as that is mental stuff, rather look feelings themselves as a mechanism and what is behind all that. Employ curiosity for how it works rather than what is the content of depression.

Im here any time you are ready to continue.
Much love.

[dacre]

To be honest, I'm not quite sure what you were getting at in your last post, but here is what I've discovered.
Every time there is a thought of the future, it triggers depression: things will stay the same, I cannot or don't want to change. No job, no money, no assets, no relationships, no qualifications, addictions, poor physical and mental health, etc, etc. I don't want to die destitute and alone. The core feeling behind all the other feelings is fear, fear of change, fear of people in general. I can't really get in touch with it much but I just sort of know that this is it. The fear is derived from very early childhood abuse and being attacked, etc. So just deep conditioning that has stayed in the body and mind.
Sometimes I find it all a bit funny because what is the future anyway, a completely made up thing. There is no future (or past), except in the mind now. And it's always now! And focusing on an imaginary 'me' on a timeline into an imaginary future is also a bit of runaway fiction ultimately. Now's generally ok, and now is all there ever is. So sometimes there is this Seeing and there is not a problem with any depression or anything else. At other times there is getting caught up in the story because it's so frightening and I still have to live a practical life. Food, shelter, the basics. For me, this isn't happening. I am having to rely on others, so the depression (with meaninglessness and apathy), is triggered. At other times life is fine just as it is.
I don't know what the solution to any of this is. Does it need a solution? Or just observation of the mechanism. If the unreal is seen as unreal, mind stuff, then can it be a problem?

[Ilona]

You stopped at a very interesting question... Can unreal be a problem?
If you know that all thoughts are about real or unreal, but never THE real, do they have to be taken so seriously?

Yes it's always now. Would that worried voice be missed, if it wasn't here? That one that looks into the future, worried about 'me'. So when you see that me is not, there is nothing to worry about in the future.
Keep talking. You are getting it. :)