Ready to look?

All threads where seeing happens are stored here. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
You are welcome to continue your conversation with your guide here after your name is turned blue.
User avatar
jennie
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:12 am

Re: Ready to look?

Postby jennie » Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:17 pm

Hi Sandra,
Do you see a thought thinking? What can you see thinking?
The thinking just happens. I can see nothing and no one thinking. Thoughts pop into existence and it seems the identification with them is often simultaneous.
Can you find this "I" in the looking, this witness, that a thought says must be here? Does looking need a doer to happen? When you look, do you see this separate witness?
No, I cannot find the "I" yet. If anything, I do not know where looking comes from. I do not know where it begins and ends, where it is located.
So, so far there is no "me". Just a lot of conditioning that thinks its "me".

User avatar
Canfora
Posts: 4422
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:58 pm

Re: Ready to look?

Postby Canfora » Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:51 pm

Hi Jennie,

What changed - if anything - since we started talking?

Do you think something is missing?

Do you have any doubts about the illusionary nature of a separate self?
Will it stop appearing?
Is the 'I-thought' a problem?

Take care,
Sandra

User avatar
jennie
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:12 am

Re: Ready to look?

Postby jennie » Sat Feb 14, 2015 5:21 pm

Hi Sandra,
What changed - if anything - since we started talking?
There haven't been any major changes since we started talking-- there is just now with me, a continual looking inward to see what is seeing, maybe. There is more of an abidance as the background, the awareness.
Do you think something is missing?
Well, I still feel like I am trying to get somewhere. Not sure where that is, though.

Code: Select all

Do you have any doubts about the illusionary nature of a separate self?
Not that I am aware of. I imagine that I will keep looking though, any time old conditioning starts to pull me in to it.
Will it stop appearing?
I don't know. But, either way, it doesn't matter.
Is the 'I-thought' a problem?
No. It is quite functional :)
And now I know "I" am not a thought. I don't know what I am, but I am not a thought.

Thanks very much Sandra~~
Jennie

User avatar
Canfora
Posts: 4422
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:58 pm

Re: Ready to look?

Postby Canfora » Sat Feb 14, 2015 6:39 pm

Hi Jennie,
there is just now with me, a continual looking inward to see what is seeing,
If it isn't possible to see what is seeing now, are you expecting to see what is seeing later?

What makes you think there is a seer?

Other than thoughts about a seer is there really some-thing, here and now, doing the seeing? Or needing to know what is seeing?

Have a look... can you see a separate self? Or a seer? Or something that needs to know?
What is causing the belief in something separated?
Thanks very much Sandra~~
You're very welcome :)

Take care,
Sandra

User avatar
jennie
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:12 am

Re: Ready to look?

Postby jennie » Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:06 am

If it isn't possible to see what is seeing now, are you expecting to see what is seeing later?
Good point!
What makes you think there is a seer?
A deep-set feeling of "seer"... of knowing how it feels to see. "I" know how it feels to see/am aware of seeing.
Other than thoughts about a seer is there really some-thing, here and now, doing the seeing? Or needing to know what is seeing?
It is more a feeling of a presence, not a thing.
Have a look... can you see a separate self? Or a seer? Or something that needs to know?
I cannot see it, but it seems I can "feel" a seer. I can feel a presence that is here. As for the separate self of the mind, I can see that underneath that, there is a feeling of wholeness, non-separation.
What is causing the belief in something separated?
An incessant stream of thoughts that are believed.

User avatar
Canfora
Posts: 4422
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:58 pm

Re: Ready to look?

Postby Canfora » Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:19 pm

Hi Jennie!

I'm not sure where we could look next...

I would like you to go through this checklist. As always, don't answer off the top of the head, but in direct experience:

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?


If the answer is 'yes' to any of these questions, please give more details.

Take care,
Sandra

User avatar
jennie
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:12 am

Re: Ready to look?

Postby jennie » Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:32 am

Hi Sandra,
Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?
No. I have not been able to find a "self" that is the experiencer. But there is a feeling of experience. I don't feel separate from the experience.
Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?
No, no self that is a doer. No self that controls what happens. Only a self that thinks it controls things and is then very unhappy when things don't go the way it wants. When I look to see where this self is, I can only find it in thoughts.
Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?
Decision making happens. I cannot find a self that makes decisions. Only a presence that is aware that decisions are being made.
Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?
No one does the thinking. Thinking arises from nowhere. And, thoughts cannot think.
Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?
It seems so. Especially when I close my eyes, I can see this.
Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?
No, not at all. This I can perhaps see the most clearly out of all these questions so far.
Identification happens a lot more with thinking/feeling/story-telling than with sensing, it seems.
Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?
No. There is not a self "in here". Thinking, at first, seems to occur "in here"-- in my head-- but when I look closer, I cannot find a location of a thought.
From my direct experience, when I close my eyes, I cannot draw a line where I end and the world "out there" begins. When I hear a sound, I feel I exist where the sound is, but also, I cannot identify a location of the sound or of the hearing. But the sound and hearing seem "together" to me-- one thing.
Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?
I am starting to see through all "I-thoughts" which seems to be where I have had the most unclarity. The "I-thought" just arises from nowhere. It points to nothing. Yet, my whole sense of self and world was built on this. I do feel doubt arising, like: "This is just too bizarre!" But underneath that is a laughing... an astonishment...
The "I" that is attached to so many thoughts, doesn't point to anything!! When an "I-thought" arises now and I look back at it, it kind of pops like a bubble.
Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?
Well, I still feel the need to keep looking when new thoughts and experiences arise, so I don't know if that means I have doubts, or if I am just orienting towards what is true and continuing to see through conditioning.

Thanks, Sandra, for the guiding~
Jennie

User avatar
Canfora
Posts: 4422
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:58 pm

Re: Ready to look?

Postby Canfora » Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:06 pm

Hi Jennie,
Decision making happens. I cannot find a self that makes decisions. Only a presence that is aware that decisions are being made.
Is this presence a self? A real, separate, objective, permanent you?
I am starting to see through all "I-thoughts" which seems to be where I have had the most unclarity. The "I-thought" just arises from nowhere. It points to nothing. Yet, my whole sense of self and world was built on this. I do feel doubt arising, like: "This is just too bizarre!" But underneath that is a laughing... an astonishment...
The "I" that is attached to so many thoughts, doesn't point to anything!! When an "I-thought" arises now and I look back at it, it kind of pops like a bubble.
Very nice!
Well, I still feel the need to keep looking when new thoughts and experiences arise, so I don't know if that means I have doubts, or if I am just orienting towards what is true and continuing to see through conditioning.
I looked for a long time after crossing the Gate. Still do. I don't do it because I have doubts. Like you said, it's a way to see through conditioning.

You sound very clear to me, Jennie. Would you say you're 100% sure that a real, separate, objective, permanent you doesn't exist - here and now, when looking happens?

Can you see the difference between the content of thoughts and what is present right now? The difference between what is a story and what is happening?

If someone asked you how it is to see this, what would you answer? How would you explain this seeing of "no self"?

Take care,
Sandra

User avatar
jennie
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:12 am

Re: Ready to look?

Postby jennie » Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:54 pm

I'm still here, Sandra, I just need a little more time for answering.
Warmly, Jennie

User avatar
Canfora
Posts: 4422
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:58 pm

Re: Ready to look?

Postby Canfora » Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:46 pm

Thank you for letting me know, Jennie.

User avatar
jennie
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:12 am

Re: Ready to look?

Postby jennie » Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:40 am

Hi Sandra,
Thanks for waiting for me to answer. :)
Is this presence a self? A real, separate, objective, permanent you?
No, not at all. It is not a self and it is not separate. I don't know what it is.
Would you say you're 100% sure that a real, separate, objective, permanent you doesn't exist - here and now, when looking happens?
Yes, right now, I am sure. I am sure that the mind-created "me" doesn't exist anywhere in reality.
Can you see the difference between the content of thoughts and what is present right now? The difference between what is a story and what is happening?
Yes, I can see and feel this difference.
If someone asked you how it is to see this, what would you answer? How would you explain this seeing of "no self"?
Well, its very simple and subtle for me right now. What looks out my eyes, what feels my feelings, thinks my thoughts, is not a self. None of that activity can be traced back to an actual "self". There is no self. There is just what is happening and the totality of this moment. It is a very subtle, quiet feeling in the background. Like, "oh, no self here. hmm..." and then again: "oh, no self here. oh, yes, of course..."
Mostly what I can say is it is very quiet, very subtle silent space.

Kindly,
Jennie

User avatar
Canfora
Posts: 4422
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:58 pm

Re: Ready to look?

Postby Canfora » Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:06 pm

It is a very subtle, quiet feeling in the background. Like, "oh, no self here. hmm..." and then again: "oh, no self here. oh, yes, of course..."
Mostly what I can say is it is very quiet, very subtle silent space.
I can relate, Jennie :)

Can you please answer LU standard "final" questions? When you finish I will ask the other guides to have a look and check if we missed something. Here are the first three:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

User avatar
jennie
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:12 am

Re: Ready to look?

Postby jennie » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:03 am

Hi Sandra,
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
There is no separate self when I am looking right now. I cannot find or locate a separate entity that is a "me".
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of a separate self comes from the unquestioned assumption that behind thoughts, feelings, experiences, etc. there must be a doer. I was conditioned from a very early age to assume this without question, and for language to "work" and for us to communicate we have to refer to separate selves, separate me's. For most of my life, I never even thought to question this, the assumption was just so completely engrained in me.

The separate self is an illusion that exists only in thoughts, just as the past and future exist in thought alone.
Thoughts, emotions and experiences still happen, it is just now when I look, I see that there is no self that makes them happen. It seems very simple now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
I seem to only be conscious of it when I am looking. But I know there is never a separate self present. The main difference from when I started this dialogue is a lot less suffering. Now that I don't have to believe that my thoughts are me, now that I can see right through that. In the place of all of that identification with thought there is a feeling of spaciousness, openness.

Thank you warmly,
Jennie

User avatar
Canfora
Posts: 4422
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:58 pm

Re: Ready to look?

Postby Canfora » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:39 am

Thank you, Jennie!
Here are the other 3:

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

User avatar
jennie
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:12 am

Re: Ready to look?

Postby jennie » Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:02 am

Hi Sandra,
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
I'm not sure what you are asking here, so I don't know how to answer!
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Decision happens just as thinking happens. Intention happens. All of these things happen as before, only now, when I look, I see that there is no self controlling the show. Because all of these things are the "self" I thought I was. So how could there be another "Self" behind them? There isn't!

Free will-- I don't know what that means, really. There is just the will of this moment and what it contains. I am beautifully a part of it, not separate. There is no will outside the will of whatever is happening. Even to resist whatever is happening is the will of that moment.
The same for control-- I don't know what that means, either. It is just not really something I have to worry about! I think what used to seem like control just seems like appropriation to me, now -- appropriation of whatever is happening in this moment by an illusory self.

What makes choice happen? I don't know! How does it work? I don't know!
All of these things arise from nowhere. That is all I know at this point. They trace back to nothing. All I see is that there is no "I" involved, as I thought/assumed there was/must be. It doesn't even seem like a major revelation or anything. It just seems simple. There is no separate entity, as assumed. It just simply doesn't exist.
Maybe I am still expecting something more to happen?

What am I responsible for?-- The only way I know how to answer this is to say, there is no "me" separate from my experience!
6) Anything to add?
Thank you so much for your guiding, Sandra, and for all the time you have put in here with me! It is so very much appreciated. :)

Sending love,
Jennie


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Amazon [Bot] and 434 guests