Thread for Belzie

[Hare]

Hi Belzie!

Let's begin!

To get us started, please could you write a paragraph or so about what brought you to this point, of wanting to engage with this inquiry. Just write whatever comes to mind.

Could you also please read the disclaimer (one of the items listed on the home page) and confirm that you're OK with that.

All good wishes, Hare

[Belzie]

Seeing how helpful it was for a friend to do this inquiry on a regular daily basis made me wanting to give it a proper go.
I've read the disclaimer and I'm ok with it.

[Hare]

OK, this inquiry requires us to be clear about what is direct, actual experience and what is thought / ideas about experience. Try the following:

1.Imagine the sound of a bell or gong, as clearly as you possibly can. Done that?
OK, now ring an actual bell or gong and hear the sound.

What is the difference, experientially, between the imagined sound and the real sound? Describe the difference.

2.Now get a piece of fruit (or other food) and place it far enough away that you can't smell it.
Imagine the smell as vividly as you can...and now the taste.
Now take the fruit and smell it directly, really experience the sensations directly. And now eat it (same again..)

Note the difference between the imagined sensations and the actual sensations.

3.Imagine a glass of water. Imagine drinking that water as vividly as you can: the temperature; the taste and all.
Now take an actual glass of water and drink it.
Would you say that the imagined glass of water is real?

Report back your findings.

By the way it's helpful to use the 'quote' function to quote my question, then your reply. It keeps the conversation nice and clear. There are instruction on 'The gate' forum.

Enjoy! x Hare

[Belzie]

[quote="Hare"]OK, this inquiry requires us to be clear about what is direct, actual experience and what is thought / ideas about experience. Try the following:

1.Imagine the sound of a bell or gong, as clearly as you possibly can. Done that?
OK, now ring an actual bell or gong and hear the sound.

What is the difference, experientially, between the imagined sound and the real sound? Describe the difference.


The difference between the imagined gong didn't come from any particular direction, it didn't reach my eardrum and didn't have the long lasting and changing sound as a gong.


2.Now get a piece of fruit (or other food) and place it far enough away that you can't smell it.
Imagine the smell as vividly as you can...and now the taste.
Now take the fruit and smell it directly, really experience the sensations directly. And now eat it (same again..)

Note the difference between the imagined sensations and the actual sensations.

The actual sensation of the chocolate (no fruit at hand) was much stronger both in taste and smell and there was the sensation of the consistence of the chocolate, which I didn't imagine.


3.Imagine a glass of water. Imagine drinking that water as vividly as you can: the temperature; the taste and all.
Now take an actual glass of water and drink it.
Would you say that the imagined glass of water is real?

The imagined glass of water was a fairly well imagined glass of water, the temperature, the wateriness of it. I wouldn't say the imagined glass of water was real in that I could drink it.
But well remembered bodily sensations.

[Hare]

Hi Belzie!

The actual sensation of the chocolate (no fruit at hand) was much stronger both in taste and smell and there was the sensation of the consistence of the chocolate, which I didn't imagine.

So there is a fundamental difference, experientially, between direct experience through the senses and something constructed in thought and imagination? The former is stronger, more vivid, right?

The imagined glass of water was a fairly well imagined glass of water, the temperature, the wateriness of it. I wouldn't say the imagined glass of water was real in that I could drink it.
But well remembered bodily sensations.

So the mental fabrication was reasonably 'convincing'...but not actually real - you couldn't drink that imaginary glass of water.

If I use the word 'real' in this inquiry, I mean it just in that ordinary sense, as in, a real glass of water is one you can drink and an imaginary one you that can't drink isn't real. We're not going to get into anything more metaphysical here!

We are going to be looking at whether the separate self is something real in this sense - something that can be directly experienced...or something that exists only in thought and imagination. So this distinction between mental construction and actual direct experience is crucial. We may come back to this, but for now let's proceed.

Answer all questions from directly observable experience, not from thoughts and ideas:

1. Look around where you are for 5 minutes or so. Is there the experience of looking / seeing + someone doing the looking and seeing? Or is there simply the experience of looking / seeing?

2. Close your eyes for a few minutes and listen to the sounds around. Is there the experience of sound + a self doing the hearing? Or simply an experience of hearing / sound?

It might be good to repeat these 2 or 3 times at different points in the day. You could go on to explore other senses in the same way if you feel moved to do so. Let me know your findings.

Let me know how you get on.

Chow x H

[Belzie]

Hiya!

1. Look around where you are for 5 minutes or so. Is there the experience of looking / seeing + someone doing the looking and seeing? Or is there simply the experience of looking / seeing?

There´s an undeniable experience when light hits the retina and the brain makes sense of that experience, which we refer to as seeing. It´s an amazing experience after say a nights sleep, to see. There´s many things that comes together to make the experience seeing but not anyone nor self that does the seeing.

2. Close your eyes for a few minutes and listen to the sounds around. Is there the experience of sound + a self doing the hearing? Or simply an experience of hearing / sound?

The experience of hearing is as undeniable when the sound hits the eardrum and the brain makes sense of that experience which we refer to as hearing. There´s many things that comes together to make the experience hearing but not anyone nor self that does the hearing.

Belzie x

[Hare]

Hi Belzie!

There´s an undeniable experience

Yes! Definitely!

when light hits the retina and the brain makes sense of that experience

Is this an actual observation in direct experience? Or an intellectual explanation based on ideas that have been previously learned?

It´s an amazing experience..

Yes! :-)

There´s many things that comes together to make the experience seeing

Is this your actual direct observation, here and now? Or a previously-formed idea about how seeing happens?

The experience of hearing is as undeniable

Yes!

when the sound hits the eardrum and the brain makes sense of that experience which we refer to as hearing. There´s many things that comes together to make the experience hearing

Can you actually observe the eardrum or the brain? Or are these, right now, in direct experience, just previously-learned ideas?

not anyone nor self that does the seeing / hearing

Is this what you are directly observing? Or is it coming from a view?

x H

[Belzie]

when lighy hits the retina and the brain makes sense of that experience

Is this an actual observation in direct experience? Or an intellectual explanation based on ideas that have been previously learned?

For example, when I look at my fairy lights hanging on the wall I see different coloured round balls with light shining from them. There is no distinct edge to each coloured ball and the light is a bit splittered.


There´s many things that comes together to make the experience seeing

Is this your actual direct observation, here and now? Or a previously-formed idea about how seeing happens?

This is my observation here and now of the fairy lights.

when the sound hits the eardrum and the brain makes sense of that experience which we refer to as hearing. There´s many things that comes together to make the experience hearing

Can you actually observe the eardrum or the brain? Or are these, right now, in direct experience, just previously-learned ideas?

To be clearer I will use an example. When I snap my finger infront of my ear there is the sound of snapping and a very slight pressure wave in my ear. There is also a process of trying to make sense of where the sound comes from and how close it is and how long the sound lasts for.


not anyone nor self does the seeing/hearing

Is this what you are directly observing? Or is it coming from a view?

I am trying to describe whats directly going on.

All the best, B

[Hare]

Hi,

For example, when I look at my fairy lights hanging on the wall I see different coloured round balls with light shining from them. There is no distinct edge to each coloured ball and the light is a bit splittered.

OK, this is straightforward direct experience (with no mental / intellectual 'add-on'). Good.

There´s many things that comes together to make the experience seeing

What things come together?

Can you actually observe the eardrum or the brain? Or are these .. just previously-learned ideas?

You didn't actually answer the question. This is important, let's stay with this line of questioning. Can you see or directly experience 'eardrum' or 'brain' in any way right now? Or are you using the concepts of 'eardrum' and 'brain' to explain the sensation of sound?

I am trying to describe whats directly going on.

Good.

I am trying to get you to differentiate more clearly between direct experience through the senses and the way mind comes in with explanations, thoughts and ideas about experience. Tell me, is the following a simple expression of experience, in the moment? Or an attempt to intellectually explain experience?

when light hits the retina and the brain makes sense of that experience

Can you see or directly experience a retina, right now? (Or brain?) Or are these ideas that help you to explain the simple, direct experience of seeing?

By direct experience, I mean bare awareness: just the ordinary sense experience - before the explanations of the mind kick in (naming; categorising, explaining, theorising...)

Is this distinction between direct experience and mental explaining ('add-ons') making sense?

x H

[Belzie]

There´s many things that comes together to make the experience seeing

What things come together?

Light, a human body with all the bits and bobs that is needed to be able to see (eye, nerves, brain etc)

Can you actually observe the eardrum or the brain? Or are these.. just previously-learned ideas?

You didn't actually answer the question. This is important, let's stay with this line of questioning. Can you see or directly experience 'eardrum' or 'brain' in any way right now? Or are you using the concepts of 'eardrum' and 'brain' to explain the sensation of sound?

Yes, I see, it´s a a previosuly learned label on a bit inside the thing we label as ”ear” and the thing inside our skull we label as ”brain”.

when light hits the retina and the brain makes sense of that experience

Can you see or directly experience a retina, right now? (Or brain?) Or are these ideas that help you to explain the simple, direct experience of seeing?

Yes, I see what you mean, it´s ideas and not the experience just the same as above about the ”eardrum” and ”brain” and is not a direct experience of seeing or hearing.

By direct experience, I mean bare awareness: just the ordinary sense experience - before the explanations of the mind kick in (naming; categorising, explaining, theorising...)

Is this distinction between direct experience and mental explaining ('add-ons') making sense?

Yes, it makes sense!

B x

[Hare]

Hi Belzie,

OK, let's continue this line of inquiry further, observing the distinction between actual direct experience and the thoughts / mental constructions that generally follow the bare sense experience:

Take 2 or 3 items with a perfume or strong smell: could be essential oils if you have any, or toiletries - or anything at all with a distinctive smell. Observe as closely as you possibly can what arises in the sense experience, and in the mind as you take the item to your nose: the sensation of smell; any associations, images and thoughts that come up.
See if you can notice where the 'bare awareness' switches into thought-construction? Try 2 or 3 different items and observe really closely: report back.

Close your eyes and take in whatever sounds are there. Experience the sounds as simply and directly as possible. Now notice the process of naming and explaining; for example as a whooshing noise is explained in thought as being a passing car, or the wind. Can you differentiate what is direct experience of sound, and what is mental explanation? Describe your findings.

x H

[Belzie]

Take 2 or 3 items with a perfume or strong smell: could be essential oils if you have any, or toiletries - or anything at all with a distinctive smell. Observe as closely as you possibly can what arises in the sense experience, and in the mind as you take the item to your nose: the sensation of smell; any associations, images and thoughts that come up.
See if you can notice where the 'bare awareness' switches into thought-construction? Try 2 or 3 different items and observe really closely: report back.

My lovers perfume
It´s a very nice, soft smell.
I distinguish the smell of ceder trees, a bit of citrus and a bit of sweetness.
In a split second I have a vivid image of being close to my lover and I realize that I associate the perfume more to a person than as a perfume/ a fragrance.
From the first sense experience to the associations and the images there´s hardly no time at all.

Handcream
I smell sweetness, maybe vanilla, and what I associate to as the smell of body lotion/hand creme. Fairly quickly I start thinking ”oh, it´s smells like old ladies”
The gap in between just experiencing the smell and associating it with old ladies is longer than with the perfume example.

Close your eyes and take in whatever sounds are there. Experience the sounds as simply and directly as possible. Now notice the process of naming and explaining; for example as a whooshing noise is explained in thought as being a passing car, or the wind. Can you differentiate what is direct experience of sound, and what is mental explanation? Describe your findings.

I hear a ticking sound, a slight background noise and a rumbling noise.
Hearing all this at the same time I notice that I immediately establish from what general direction the sound is coming. And very quickly the mental explanation of the ticking sound, the background noise and the rumbling noise comes, as in ”I hear the kitchen clock, I hear the water pipes, and I hear when the fridge compressor starts”

/B x

[Hare]

Hi belzie,

All good. We may revisit this area, the distinction between actual, direct experience and the associations and thoughts that interpret experience : Thoughts ABOUT experience rather than experience itself.

There is no 'me', 'I' or 'self'. There never has been and there never will be.

What comes up when you read this?

Just a reminder about our agreement to post every day. It's what works best.

X H

[Belzie]

There is no 'me', 'I' or 'self'. There never has been and there never will be.

What comes up when you read this?

My emotional response is relief and the first thought is ”Oh, what a relief to not have to try to create a self”

/B x

[Hare]

How do you see a self being created? Can you give any examples observed in your own experience?

x H