Looking for a final push

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel
Yeah they're just labels but that just doesn't help, everything doesn't get better when I see that the pointlessness/boredom/meaninglessness is just a thought, it's more fundamental than that, or maybe not, but it doesn't seem to matter.
And again (lol)- round and round we go in thought wanting something other than what is. So go to that fundamental feeling. Sit with it. BE with it. Is it pointless? Or is it just what is? Does it really matter what thoughts say about anything?
Big hugs Sarah xxxx

[Raweir]

No it doesn't matter what thoughts say. I guess I just have to get used to this idea.
xx

[Sarah7]

Hey Daniel
Not get used to as such - just notice and look at what story is saying. That's all that's needed. You have all the tools Daniel.
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel
You guess you just have to get used to the idea that what thoughts say doesn't matter, thoughts like those that claim there's a "self". Now could you be convinced otherwise?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

Could I be convinced that there is a self?

Well my convincer would have to refer to the self to prove its existence, he could only say something like 'The self is what you are', 'The self is what's inside the brain and controls the body', I can't even think of a convincing argument someone could make for the existence of a self, at best they could say 'You are the body (and brain)', but that still leaves the body without a controller, which I guess is what the self really is, so still there is no room for a self.

xx

[Raweir]

I have some questions about separation and 'Oneness'.

What does it mean to see the non-separation or oneness of everything? And what does it mean to believe there is separation?

Surely everyone (awakened or not) can see a cup on the table, so what does it mean to see them as one? Is it just that both the cup and the table are just made of sensations, (visual, tactile, blah, blah) along with everything else?

xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel

Yeah they're just labels but that just doesn't help, everything doesn't get better when I see that the pointlessness/boredom/meaninglessness is just a thought, it's more fundamental than that.

What 'I' 'sees' that this is just thought'? When thoughts of pointlessness/boredom/meaningless are noticed is there an 'experiencer' of these?'

Getting used to the idea that what thoughts say doesn't matter” does read here like thought (the idea) has done the convincing once before, and that a different thought (another idea) could just as well convince otherwise. In other words it reads like the ‘convincer’ here is thought. So could this ‘convincer’ -a different thought (another idea) - convince otherwise?

but that still leaves the body without a controller, which I guess is what the self really is, so still there is no room for a self.

Can this be worked out?

I have some questions about separation and 'Oneness'. What does it mean to see the non-separation or oneness of everything? And what does it mean to believe there is separation? Surely everyone (awakened or not) can see a cup on the table, so what does it mean to see them as one? Is it just that both the cup and the table are just made of sensations, (visual, tactile, blah, blah) along with everything else?

Do you remember this exercise?
Gaze at an object. Turn up that inner magnifying glass to observe what's happening in direct experience. Do you first perceive the object using some other sense, and then see it later? Can you find a dividing line between the object and the seeing of it? Or are the object and the seeing of it inseparable? Is there an entity called "you" experiencing the seeing? Can you find a dividing line between "you" and seeing? Is it an accurate description of direct experience? Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I" and seer and an object? Or is there only seeing? What do you see about the thought, "I'm seeing that object"?

And into the hearing exercise?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

What 'I' 'sees' that this is just thought'? When thoughts of pointlessness/boredom/meaningless are noticed is there an 'experiencer' of these?'

When thoughts of pointlessness etc come then that's it, other thoughts analysing them usually come too, and then I find myself typing about it on the internet.

Getting used to the idea that what thoughts say doesn't matter” does read here like thought (the idea) has done the convincing once before, and that a different thought (another idea) could just as well convince otherwise. In other words it reads like the ‘convincer’ here is thought. So could this ‘convincer’ -a different thought (another idea) - convince otherwise?

By convincer I was imagining a person. But yeah, thought can say anything, and only thought can say if it's true or not. There is a self, there isn't a self, pointless, meaningful.

Can this be worked out?

Well the self is tough to define, maybe it's impossible, and if so, no, it can't be worked out.

Do you remember this exercise?

Yeah I remember, and I can see this. But what about the separation between two objects.
If I look at a cup and a TV, there is just the experience of them. In what sense are they not separate? Is it that the cup is just experience and the TV is just experience and so experience = experience? It seems to make sense.

xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel

Yeah I remember, and I can see this. But what about the separation between two objects.
If I look at a cup and a TV, there is just the experience of them. In what sense are they not separate? Is it that the cup is just experience and the TV is just experience and so experience = experience? It seems to make sense.

How are you separate from what is experienced regardless of whether it is ‘good’ or ‘bad’ and regardless of what is being experienced? Take away the labels – what then? No thinking - just look.
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

Then there is nothing to say about separation or lack of separation.

xx

[Sarah7]

But what is noticed?
S xxx

[Raweir]

It's like, everything is close, immediate, I thought I'd noticed this already but I hadn't, it's all alone, it feels like everything that is experienced isn't being experienced and yet it is there. Even though I've said these things before, there was still a bit of observer, like in the back of my head somewhere, but now it just feels all alone. I keep going in and out of this perspective, like a camera going in and out of focus, so it's difficult to capture it.

xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel

It's like, everything is close, immediate, I thought I'd noticed this already but I hadn't, it's all alone, it feels like everything that is experienced isn't being experienced and yet it is there. Even though I've said these things before, there was still a bit of observer, like in the back of my head somewhere, but now it just feels all alone. I keep going in and out of this perspective, like a camera going in and out of focus, so it's difficult to capture it.

And is the alone-ness interpreted as ‘good’ or ‘bad’? Is it just what is? Is it resisted? Or desired? Is it spacious? Or closed? I realise finding words is difficult!
Did you expect the feeling of an observer to go? Or not be part of what is? Are ‘you’ that observer?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

No the aloneness is definitely not negative or positive, I know the word has connotations but it just seemed like it was an accurate description, we don't have a word that describes something as alone without sounding negative lol. It is desired by thought, I couldn't say spacious or closed but it was experienced just sitting at my computer, so maybe if I was outside it would feel spacious.

I would say the feeling of the observer did go, like I said, it was like everything was on a screen, but the screen was all there was. It was kind of like a reminder that there is more to see through, without sounding progressy or goaly.

xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel

No the aloneness is definitely not negative or positive, I know the word has connotations but it just seemed like it was an accurate description, we don't have a word that describes something as alone without sounding negative lol. It is desired by thought, I couldn't say spacious or closed but it was experienced just sitting at my computer, so maybe if I was outside it would feel spacious.

What is thought desiring?

I would say the feeling of the observer did go, like I said, it was like everything was on a screen, but the screen was all there was. It was kind of like a reminder that there is more to see through, without sounding progressy or goaly.

But is there expectation in there? Is there a ‘there is still more’ here? Is it experienced? What else is there BUT what IS experienced? What would want that? Are ‘you’ separate FROM experience?
Hugs Sarah xxx