Hi Smudge

[smudge]

Cool. Look forward to hearing tomorrow x

[cotton]

hi there
ok so a bit confused, wondering what I am looking for. Am I missing the point of DE?
noting that imaging drinking the drink, the drink is separate, out there, then when drinking the drink, the drink and 'me' are one
its been another busy day and not much chance to drop down
so my experience right now is feeling like an ocean with waves coming and going
thoughts arise, memories arise, feelings arise, planning arises, there are thoughts memories,planning remembering
so asking, where am 'I'
'I' floats, its an idea right now, not specific, and releasing some hold on 'I' feels good
hope you have had a relaxing sunday
Love cotton

[smudge]

its been another busy day and not much chance to drop down

3 days of busy not much time to look, its fine to be busy but this process needs time EVERY DAY for it to be effective, can you commit to this from now on to LOOK deeply every day. It only needs 15 - 20 minutes but it does need that. Its fine to put it on hold if now is not a good time for daily looking.

Am I missing the point of DE?

This enquiry is exclusively looking to see if there is such a thing as a self in Direct experience. Therefore it is important to know the difference between thoughts/ideas/metaphors like/about and the DE itself. Al I am asking is for DE.

Think of a cup. See it clearly in the mind's eye. See its size, shape, colour, decoration. Does it have a handle? Tell me when the cup is clear.
Now, can I pour tea into that cup? Can you drink from it?

So right now, in DE what is this "I" that is referred to that can "miss the point" or "become one with a cup"? Describe what is found DE only please.

[cotton]

I am committed to the process and would like to continue if you are up for that. I am giving time to looking each day and throughout the day.

Think of a cup. See it clearly in the mind's eye. See its size, shape, colour, decoration. Does it have a handle? Tell me when the cup is clear.
Now, can I pour tea into that cup? Can you drink from it?

imaginatively tea can be poured into the cup, I can imaginatively drink from it, but actually tea can not be poured into the cup as it does not exist.

Am I missing the point of DE?

sitting with this question, in experience there is no I that can miss the point, but explaining to you I use the words to convey my confusion.

"become one with a cup"

the experience does not have any labels, its just happening, I don't know how to describe the experience other than using terms like me and cup and one. Not sure how to describe direct experience. can you give any general help/pointers on talking about DE?

[smudge]

We are investigating is there a self to be found. Maybe there is already realisation there is not, is this the case?

If not I am wondering if you identify with thoughts maybe or body etc....

So if there is a cup and I ask you to describe it you may say its curved, hard and cold (for example). If there is a self, it should be able to be described in the same way shouldn't it? so go ahead...

I don't know how to describe the experience

So, like the cup example, describe what "I" is in this sentence in DE.

xx

[cotton]

We are investigating is there a self to be found. Maybe there is already realisation there is not, is this the case?

there is some sense of self and identity that feels different from say what I would label as 'your self or identity' that is reading this.

I don't know how to describe the experience

in this sentence 'I' is the body that is warm and is weight on the chair, there is sensations of fingers tapping onto the keys of the computer ; there is thinking which stops and starts or comes and goes, floats around ; there are feelings of confusion, there is a volition to stop and do something else, there is the breath that lets go and stays.

So if there is a cup and I ask you to describe it you may say its curved, hard and cold (for example). If there is a self, it should be able to be described in the same way shouldn't it? so go ahead...

not sure this is possible, self cannot be described in the same way as a cup because there is no form, am going to muse more on this now and get back to you

[smudge]

'I' is the body that is warm and is weight...sensations of fingers tapping.thinking which stops and starts.feelings of confusion.volition

and then..

..there is no form

So self is a non form, form that is warm, has fingers, weight sensations, thinking and volitions right?

Lets check: lets start with body.What makes the body 'you' exactly?
In what way is a sensation labelled 'my body' in any way more 'yours' than the sounds, or colours and shapes appearing right now? What about a breeze on the skin? 'Yours'? Or not?

Sitting here now, seeing is happening - does this just happen, or does 'I' make it happen?

Hearing is happening - does this just happen, or does 'I' make it happen?

Tasting, smelling, feeling ... do these just happen?

Thoughts arise ... do they just arise, or does 'I' make them happen?

.... so what is 'I'?

please answer all this thoroughly from DE. x

[cotton]

very good questions and I have been looking and observing, then an error occurred on web site and a bit late now to write anything so will email tomorrow
nite nite x

[cotton]

Hi,
bit concerned this is all contradictory, guess it will as not seen through the illusion
tend to be someone full of contradictions anyway, confusion is a common samskara
but here goes…i am committed to seeing what there is to see…thanks again for doing this with me

So self is a non form, form that is warm, has fingers, weight sensations, thinking and volitions right?

experience 'I' has a form, self does not seem to have a form….not sure why this is, am attached to the idea of "I' more than 'self'. Self feels more temporary or transient. Don't have a belief in self, but am attached to ''I' as 'I' is the person going about in the world that experiences.

What about a breeze on the skin? 'Yours'? Or not?

breeze on the skin is clearly not 'mine', but there is still an 'I' that experiences it.

What makes the body 'you' exactly?

becomes 'my body' in relationship to other bodies. its my body not your body, something to do with ownership, mine, sounds and colours are not owned. Things outside are not owned, things inside or within the boundary of the body are owned….

Sitting here now, seeing is happening - does this just happen, or does 'I' make it happen?

it does just happen, I don't make it happen, but there is an I experiencing this

earing is happening - does this just happen, or does 'I' make it happen?

Tasting, smelling, feeling ... do these just happen?

Thoughts arise ... do they just arise, or does 'I' make them happen?

same, things just happening, am not making them happen, but there is an I that they are happening to

story…..'I' feel much less defined in relationship to nature, "I' is surrendered when safe. "i' becomes more defined in relationship as a defence to protect…..

[cotton]

Hiya

been sitting more today observing and listening, aware of sensations, breath, thoughts and feelings arise and that is just happening, they arise on their own accord, then there is a voice that commentates that these are my experiences, or these experiences are happening to me. observed the "i" as thought or idea and saw the words I am experiencing this, then asking where the I is, I do not find an 'I' then sensations of 'dropping' around the periphery of my body and tingling and feelings of something, that I then label as excitement and fear

sense of nothing in the way, which i label as potentiality, have experienced this before, more to do with no outer limits, still something inside holding on, gritted teeth. labelled that as will, volition……

sense of inner and outer sometimes, other times not

hope you have had a good day, and the birds are still coming to feed, more snow here!

love cotton

[smudge]

This sounds like Direct experience

breath, thoughts and feelings arise and that is just happening....tingling and feelings

This sounds like thoughts and philosophising about experience
am attached to the idea of "I' more than 'self'. Self feels more temporary or transient.
Don't have a belief in self, but am attached to ''I' as 'I' is the person going about in the world that experiences.
but there is still an 'I' that experiences it.
becomes 'my body' in relationship to other bodies. its my body not your body
there is an I experiencing this
there is an I that they are happening to

None of the above is backed up with DE. It is an assumption that is so deeply assumed it is almost ridiculous to question it. But LOOK, find out for sure.

Lets keep it simple:
What makes the body 'you' exactly. Just answer this from DIRECT EXPERIENCE. If you are your body then please back it up with evidence....."its seems like" and statements like this don't count..'.it seemed like' the world was flat once!

Just one glimpse of deeply seeing is all it takes x

[cotton]

having trouble with how to communicate DE without using labels and thoughts about DE….when there is DE there are no words or labels or thoughts or emotions happening and then when I go to write something I have to find labels again, the words don't really say what the experience was.

have been sitting yesterday eve and this morning, not found any evidence of there being a 'my' body only sensations thoughts images about the word body, and emotions/thoughts desire longing frustration pulsating sadness and fear that arise in relation to this looking

sense dialogue and thoughts going on, questions and answers arise, different voices arise, there is abiding and arising

[cotton]

ok so more sitting,
looking observing, open to whats there
no finding a thing, just thoughts (shapes colours labels) and sensations(tingling warmth) memories and stories,
constant commentary going on, heavy head, heavy breath
commentary is tiring, sometimes amusing, lightness and heaviness
then thinking less and sense of open space, relaxed awareness smooth breath (sensation) and phew (belief in the thought)…. then a sense of openness ….all OK now…..nothing to do, nowhere to go
thinking is just happening, not attached to anything, random stories ideas not often about anything currently happening


wondering if am on the right track with this enquiry?

[smudge]

Hi Cotton, Looking good!

wondering if am on the right track with this enquiry?

Totally, yes!

not found any evidence of there being a 'my' body only sensations

Yep, sensations happening..

fear that arise in relation to this looking

With kindness, peak behind the fear...what there?

just thoughts (shapes colours labels) and sensations(tingling warmth) memories and stories, constant commentary going on

Yes this simple noticing is it. Its all just happening and the thought commentary goes bla bla bla...like sticky labels that say me/I, on everything thats just happening anyway. Crazy carry on! Do this to help this be really clear:
Write what you are experiencing right now using the words I and me. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here now. Like this: I am lying in bed. I am hearing rain. I am typing these words. Do this for 10 minutes. Watch the body; what physical sensations are happening? Then for the next 10 minutes write what you are experiencing without the words I and me. Just describe the experience as it is happening in the moment, using verbs: Waiting for next thought, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing rain. Again watch what is happening in the body. Now compare these two ways to label experience. What do you notice?

Nice work, I'm feeling it biting :-) xx

[cotton]

thanks for the encouragement, been on the case all day!!
do you mean to write the two versions here…or just on my own and then write back to you with the comparison?