Looking to pass through the gateless gate

[JonathanR]

Hi Don,

There is a lot here. Let's take your first observation about thoughts....

I cannot find a 'self' when I look, so it must be an assumption that one exits. I say that, but find myself thinking thoughts, mulling them over, and believing that 'I' am making a decision.

Do 'you' think thoughts, or do thoughts think 'you'?

Yes, thoughts seem to appear like announcements...such as 'I think'. They just seem to appear, don't they?

(Important)
Given that a separate 'self' cannot be found, is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing, including the thought 'I'.

We will come back to ideas such as 'control' shortly but look àt 'thought' for a moment.

Thoughts just seem to appear and disappear,.don't they? That thoughts 'come and go' is not in question, is it? Like a tannoy making announcements or perhaps a little like a fridge buzzing in the background, switching its self on and off, thoughts are part of experience. But is what thoughts 'say', the content, what they are 'about' ever more than a commentary? Something extra added on to the actual experience of life?

Warm regards,

Jon.

[TruthSeeker2015]

Good morning Jon,

Do 'you' think thoughts, or do thoughts think 'you'?

There is no 'me' to think thoughts and I have to believe that thoughts are a part of the separate self. My time with no thoughts taught me that they are not a requirement to living and doing, they are simply mental noise or commentary as you note. They seem to 'think' thoughts that reinforce a separate me, painful thoughts of the past or fearful thoughts of the future that continue to feed the thought of a separate 'me'.

Yes, thoughts seem to appear like announcements...such as 'I think'. They just seem to appear, don't they?

Yes, they seem to just appear.

(Important)
Given that a separate 'self' cannot be found, is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing, including the thought 'I'.

It is not possible to prevent a thought from appearing as there is no 'me' to prevent it.

Thoughts just seem to appear and disappear,.don't they? That thoughts 'come and go' is not in question, is it? Like a tannoy making announcements or perhaps a little like a fridge buzzing in the background, switching its self on and off, thoughts are part of experience. But is what thoughts 'say', the content, what they are 'about' ever more than a commentary? Something extra added on to the actual experience of life?

Yes, thoughts seem to come and go and seem to be based on this body/mind's experiences and story of 'me' and are typically not based on reality, they are simply commentary.

Thank you Jon,

Don

[JonathanR]

Hello Don,

Thank you for your clear answers about thought.

Let's now look consider what you said earlier:

My fears are that I won't parent my children correctly letting life flow through me or I won't do well at work just letting things be as they are when they need to improve. When I dig into this, my thought is that life is already acting through me and there is no 'me', so nothing will be different, but my mind comes up with examples where it feels like there is an 'I' that makes decisions that life wouldn't make.

I understand. (I am also a parent, by the way). Fear is often a reflex to protect something that is perceived as threatened. It may be worth exploring this by not resisting the fear, instead, allowing it to flow through.

Is 'my mind' another label for 'thoughts'?

About decisions and choices, try the following, next time you drive somewhere take a look at what happens. There is an idea of a 'self' that 'does driving', isn't there?. An idea of a separate entity that controls everything and makes driving happen, (without which it might be assumed there could be a crash)?

But does driving happen like this? Just how much of a drive across town, from the moment of picking up car keys to the arrival in the hallway of the destination, is 'controlled' or 'decided'? If it were all 'made to happen' then it could be assumed that every last detail of movement from turning keys in ignition, to indicating, to turning wheels, to checking mirrors etc...to parking would have to be pre-thought and pre-planned. But does it happen like this?

Get up and make a cup of tea or coffee. Once you are seated again, examine what just happened. Was there a 'doer' of 'making coffee' that 'decided' all the way through or did it all just flow? If sugar was 'chosen' or not, did a 'self' 'choose' that, or was it automatic?


Warm regards,

Jon.

[TruthSeeker2015]

Hi Jon,

Thank you for your response. I will spend some time with the fear and report back.

Is 'my mind' another label for 'thoughts'?

Thank you Jon, that question was very helpful. Yes, 'my mind' is just another label for 'thoughts'.

About decisions and choices, try the following, next time you drive somewhere take a look at what happens. There is an idea of a 'self' that 'does driving', isn't there?. An idea of a separate entity that controls everything and makes driving happen, (without which it might be assumed there could be a crash)?

But does driving happen like this? Just how much of a drive across town, from the moment of picking up car keys to the arrival in the hallway of the destination, is 'controlled' or 'decided'? If it were all 'made to happen' then it could be assumed that every last detail of movement from turning keys in ignition, to indicating, to turning wheels, to checking mirrors etc...to parking would have to be pre-thought and pre-planned. But does it happen like this?

Love this question, it hits on the topic that I struggled with.
During my shift in consciousness, 'I' had to drive to work. Driving was just happening and 'I' was simply aware of it, not 'doing' it. I noted during this experience that 'I' was driving the speed limit, something I never do, there was no rush, simply driving, peaceful. This experience showed 'me' that there was no 'I' driving, simply 'driving happening'.
Fast forward 2 years and I am driving on slick, icy roads towards my house and as I come up to the corner, I get the thought that it would be fun to hit the gas as I go around the corner and enjoy the ride/slide. Two completely different feelings (one peaceful, and one reckless) and the thought occurring like a choice, made it feel like I was choosing to do this. The first experience felt like life simply flowing, the second felt like a reckless 'me' making the choice to do this.

Looking at this now, it's the thought that arose prior to the action gave the allusion of a 'choice' being made by a 'self'. There was no 'me' driving, only driving happening. Reinforcing this are numerous times when driving and in thought on a separate subject, driving simply happens without a 'me' doing it.

Get up and make a cup of tea or coffee. Once you are seated again, examine what just happened. Was there a 'doer' of 'making coffee' that 'decided' all the way through or did it all just flow? If sugar was 'chosen' or not, did a 'self' 'choose' that, or was it automatic?

It just flows, there is no 'self' 'doing' or 'deciding', its the presence of thought that makes the experience seem like a choice is being made by a 'me'.

Thank you,
Don

[JonathanR]

Hi Don,

Thanks for your reply.

Looking back again at a couple of things you said earlier...

Is this just life occurring/being? Will the same outcome happen without my perceived influence? If I was standing at a crosswalk with a group of people and a bus was coming and someone stepped out not seeing the bus, would the thought to grab the person and pull them back be the same as life acting through me to grab the person and pull them back? Will 'life' simply act through me in the manner in which it was supposed to be?

Since there has never been a 'self' isn't it simply the thought of an entity, 'Don' that might 'choose' a course of action?

And can a thought 'It's me that chooses' in any way cause a 'chooser' to 'exist'?

Is the thought 'I choose', anything more than a thought, a sort of announcement on what unfolds?

Try to find the choice-point in 'taking the decision' to raise your right arm. Wait a few moments and then, whenever, raise your arm. Look for the exact moment when that choice to raise the arm is made. If there is a 'doer' a 'chooser' a 'decider', then it should be possible to observe the moment of choice. Can this be found?

With all my senses (sight, hearing, taste, smell, touch), I see the body part responsible for the sense(s) sending an electrical signal to the brain where it is interpreted by the brain based on past experiences (which are labels) if they exist, it is then labeled (thought) again and then this thought drives an emotion or action or another thought. An example would be putting your hand on a hot stove.

Yes, good conclusion there.

Conventionally this causal model is very useful for 'everyday life' but if you go straight to the hearing exercise now, is there 'a body part' experienced? Do 'ears' 'hear', or is there simply hearing?. Is 'a brain experienced interpreting past experiences'? Or is that a thought extra to what can be noticed right here and now?


Jon

[TruthSeeker2015]

Jon,

This is very powerful and I need some time to process. I have one question, if not 'me' then who or what made my body lift its arm? Something is happening, 'I' am experiencing feelings of sadness, tearful.

Much appreciation,

Don

[TruthSeeker2015]

Jon,

Quite a night tonight. Walls are collapsing and although there is no 'me' to 'get it', things are happening. After reading your post and questions, the feeling that there is no 'me' began to sink in. I felt like life is flowing / happening through this body/mind apparatus and whatever I am is simply aware, no control, no choices, no doer, just awareness. This body mind apparatus went to a school program tonight and as 'I' held 'my' daughters hand walking in, 'I' was simply aware that it was happening, walking was happening, talking happening, but the was no 'me' doing it.

It doesn't feel solid yet, but is coming. My daughters demands tonight quickly brought 'me' back to a me.

I am feeling great sadness thinking that there is no me and that 'I' am not controlling 'my' destiny and I am feeling like a bystander to the life that I thought was mine. It feels like I got pulled aside after 40 years and someone told me, guess what, you haven't been doing anything, you haven't been making choices, you haven't been 'doing', you haven't done anything, you aren't even the person you think you are, something else (life?) has been doing everything and your controls to life weren't even hooked up, as I look over to see cables on the floor that aren't plugged in.

I wanted to know the truth and have spent years searching for it. This isn't what 'I' expected, but there were also tears of joy in finally beginning to see.

I don't know where to go from here, I would like it to feel more solid. I get that there is no me that needs it to be more solid, maybe I simply need more time to let this be.

Thank you Jon, thank you!!

[JonathanR]

Hello Don,

Thank you very much for your post.

Unfortunately just at this moment my internet connection has failed and an engineer needs to fix it. I am messaging via my mobile phone, which isn't easy. But I will try to reply later this evening by this method. It may be brief though. Sorry. You are doing very well.

Jon.

[JonathanR]

I was simply aware that it was happening, walking was happening, talking happening, but the was no 'me' doing it. 

That sounds good.

It doesn't feel solid yet, but is coming. My daughters demands tonight quickly brought 'me' back to a me. 

'Solid' is an interesting adjective to use that might imply a final state or condition of some sort. Sometimes people look for some kind of 'objective' change in consciousness as evidence that 'something real and permanent has been achieved' but then, having to get on with everyday life, it can be easy to think 'I have lost the vision...nothing happened'. But I agree, there is increasing clarity.

I am feeling great sadness thinking that there is no me and that 'I' am not controlling 'my' destiny and I am feeling like a bystander to the life that I thought was mine. It feels like I got pulled aside after 40 years and someone told me, guess what, you haven't been doing anything, you haven't been making choices, you haven't been 'doing', you haven't done anything, you aren't even the person you think you are, something else (life?) has been doing everything and your controls to life weren't even hooked up, as I look over to see cables on the floor that aren't plugged in. 

Just because there is no 'you' does not mean that these achievements are not valid. Since there is no 'self' there is nothing to stop a feeling of pride about these things.

Please try the following exercise.

First, find a melon-sized object of some sort and place it in front of you on a table. Sit down and let your eyes rest on this object, but don't study it intently.

In this situation there is the perceiver, the perception and the perceived. Now, look carefully. Is it possible to find a line or separation where perceiver ends and perceived begins?

Is it possible at all to separate or unglue these three things? Isn't it as though 'perception' glues the viewer and viewed together? What do you think?

Best wishes,

Jon

[TruthSeeker2015]

Greetings Jon,

Thank you for the reply and I hope your server issues got worked out. Thank you for following up on your phone.

'Solid' is an interesting adjective to use that might imply a final state or condition of some sort. Sometimes people look for some kind of 'objective' change in consciousness as evidence that 'something real and permanent has been achieved' but then, having to get on with everyday life, it can be easy to think 'I have lost the vision...nothing happened'. But I agree, there is increasing clarity.

I need to spend some time on this topic as I have approached this with an open mind, but have no idea what the other side of the gate looks like. I have to be careful stating this because, I know that it will be simply what it is, but I could have made that same statement months ago and never have seen what reality is. I hope this makes sense. I am not looking for something that an 'I' can call its recent achievement, just a point that the searching stops and acceptance of what is starts. I didn't have a shift in consciousness last night, more of a shift in perception, raising the thought that this is what normal would feel like. I get the duality piece, just looking for clarity. Can you please help me with this. If 'I' simply need to drop it to progress, 'I' will and accept what is.

Just because there is no 'you' does not mean that these achievements are not valid. Since there is no 'self' there is nothing to stop a feeling of pride about these things. [\quote]

Jon, is my view correct on this? I feel like the achievements had nothing to do with me. The achievements/actions happened, but it was simply this body/mind mechanism's actions that 'did it', 'I' have zero involvement other than being aware of the 'doing'. I get the fact that if there is a feeling of pride felt, it is just part of the experience.

Is this statement / view correct? All that 'I' am is awareness, that's it, nothing more. Life is flowing through this body/mind apparatus and acting out its role, there is no 'me' to do anything other than 'be' aware. What is said, done, or experienced by this body/mind apparatus belongs to life.

Do 'I' get mad/angry? I feel like my getting mad is driven by a sense of self when things aren't going 'my' way. Another part of me says it might just be part of the experience. When 'I' experience this, I feel like there is still a sense of self. If the answer is yes, how do you know the difference?

First, find a melon-sized object of some sort and place it in front of you on a table. Sit down and let your eyes rest on this object, but don't study it intently.
In this situation there is the perceiver, the perception and the perceived. Now, look carefully.

Is it possible to find a line or separation where perceiver ends and perceived begins?

There is no line or separation, 'I' am awareness, aware of the perceiver and the perceived.

Is it possible at all to separate or unglue these three things? Isn't it as though 'perception' glues the viewer and viewed together? What do you think? [\quote]

There needs to be a perceiver to perceive and there needs to be acknowledgement of the perceived, which is perception. Without perception, nothing is perceived. The three cannot be separated. I feel like there is more to this question than I am picking up.

Thank you Jon!!

[TruthSeeker2015]

Jon - not sure what happened with the formatting, sorry.

[JonathanR]

Hi Son,

I'm still having internet problems. Will try to post today by phone.


Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi Don,

As you can see I'm having difficulty with predictive text and actually seeing what I have written. I do apologise.

--- have to be careful stating this because, I know that it will be simply what it is, but I could have made that same statement months ago and never have seen what reality is. I hope this makes sense. ---

It does. And my questions about 'solid' were to make certain that you did not have a fixed idea, which you don't. And that is good.

--- If 'I' simply need to drop it to progress, 'I' will and accept what is. ---

No. You have been very clear. Wouldn't you say that you have seen through the illusion of 'self' and seen that 'you' do not 'make anything happen'?

I mean, is there a self here right now?

Let's look at other issues next time?


Best wishes,

Jon.

[TruthSeeker2015]

Jon,

Thank you for replying on your phone, I'm sure that is not easy.

I would say that I have seen through the illusion of 'self' and that there is no 'me' to make things happen. I will be traveling for a little over a week starting on Saturday, so my replies may be a little sporadic, but will stay engaged.

Until next time.

Best regards and thank you!!

Don

[JonathanR]

Hi Don,

Sporadic is fine but appreciate you staying engaged.

Just thinking about the latter part of your post yesterday, of course you're absolutely right in saying that many things, achievents and so on have had nothing to do with 'you' but have simply flowed. I meant your achievements are 'valid' from a dualist perspective but of course there was no 'you' 'achieving' anything.

I'll post again tomorrow.

Regards,
Jon.