Round Two

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi King Nothing,

Happy new year! :)

:)

...Sit with the thought of 'self is what is aware' and see what it is, how it is experienced, the duration of it, any fluctuation - does it come and go?

It's a persistent idea which when I look closely is accompanied with tension in the body (chest, stomach) and mind (like cognitive dissonance/an idea insisting on something I don't really agree with). It's constant, but it changes in intensity, getting weakest as I reach that 'deconstruction' point.

That's a nice, clear description.

Put two hands palm down on the table. One of them will lift up. You don't know which or when.
See if you can find the choicepoint at which a 'you' could go either way, right or left.

When a palm does lift up, see if there was any initiation of that action by a 'you'.
Do it several times, and see whether things happen naturally, or are decided by a 'you' inside.

The intention to move a particular hand occurs by itself, and then the hand moves by itself.

Cool.

Look at the hands - how do you know they are yours?

They are just hands - 'my hands' is only an idea/belief.

Ok. Let's look at this "persistent idea" of a self.

When I was a kid, I'd watch Doctor Who. The effects weren't so good in those days. :) It would often be filmed in a quarry to simulate an alien landscape. There would be these huge boulders being blown up. Now, of course, turns out, these "huge boulders" were polystyrene, spray-painted. So how come I saw and felt them to be huge boulders? Well, one way or another, it comes down to an agreement. As a kid, I agreed to suspend belief, and accept whatever was given at face value. :) That included the Daleks (which of course were actually real).

What has this to do with a "persistent idea" of self?

It is the agreement you made to see self as a "persistent idea". It is seen as something "difficult to change" hence its "persistence". As this agreement is withdrawn (as you're finding), the "persistent idea" fades and weakens. Without your agreement to believe in it, it has no support. At all. And drops out.

This is what is left to see.

Sit with the idea of self again, and this time, look around and notice the attendant (sometimes, slightly hiding behind the scenes) tacit agreement to believe in this idea of a "self" as you.

When you feel that tacit agreement, withdraw it a little. Notice what happens to the idea.
Withdraw some more, and notice.
Withdraw agreement - but only so far as feels good to do so, at this time.

There's no rush. Slow and sure is good.

Share what comes up.

With kind thanks,
John

[King Nothing]

Withdrawing that agreement gets me deeper into direct experience and that deconstruction point.

It seems that belief in the idea of self provides a sense of clear structure and control - 'I experience, then I decide, then I do' - as well as a sort of personal space - 'in here' separate from 'out there'. Withdrawing belief feels a bit disconcerting because it challenges that structure, control and separation.

But I'm more interested in the truth! Carrying on... :D

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi King Nothing,

Withdrawing that agreement gets me deeper into direct experience and that deconstruction point.

It seems that belief in the idea of self provides a sense of clear structure and control - 'I experience, then I decide, then I do' - as well as a sort of personal space - 'in here' separate from 'out there'. Withdrawing belief feels a bit disconcerting because it challenges that structure, control and separation.

But I'm more interested in the truth! Carrying on... :D

Use this withdrawing agreement practice to move closer to that deconstruction point. It can feel like a kind of edge which, as you say, the structure and control seem un- supported, having always been so by the idea of self and the tacit agreement to act as if it were true that it was you.

This can be a sobering place to see this structure, and to see that is has no inherent power, no agency.

Withdrawing agreement brings you to that edge.

Share with me when you get there. :)

Best wishes,
John

[King Nothing]

Still going... Trying to withdraw agreement, I found it helpful to bear in mind that the agreement isn't being withdrawn by a 'self'.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi King Nothing,

Still going... Trying to withdraw agreement, I found it helpful to bear in mind that the agreement isn't being withdrawn by a 'self'.

Yes, good to keep it simple and not retreat into mind.
You can feel the agreement. It wouldn't be enacted without it.

The agreement is an implicit willingness to go along with the status quo that you ARE this 'self'.
That this 'self' IS in every way, you.

This is not about saying there is no 'self' - clearly, there is, as an idea.
This is about withdrawing agreement/support for the notion that YOU ARE this idea.

To truly withdraw this agreement is to walk towards this edge of un-hooking you from 'self'.

Best wishes,
John

[King Nothing]

Still going. I've had some more times feeling close to the edge of un-hooking, sometimes anxiety comes with that.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi King Nothing,

Still going. I've had some more times feeling close to the edge of un-hooking, sometimes anxiety comes with that.

Anxiety showing up to no-one.

Take it lightly too. You are allowed to enjoy it. :)

Best wishes,
John

[King Nothing]

Still going...

[s-p-a-c-e]

Still going...

:D

[King Nothing]

Ha ha... I'll get there. :)

[s-p-a-c-e]

Ha ha... I'll get there. :)

Go on then, share what's happening. :)

Thank you,
John

[King Nothing]

I guess I'm just being impatient, wanting to fulfill hopes of there being a sudden massive champagne POP of clear seeing that forever shatters any idea of self, suddenly making me a peaceful, selfless (as in not selfish) insightful amazing being. Which is of course unrealistic.

Probably need to see that there isn't a self to realise anything, the realising just happens. Any pointers for that?

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi King Nothing,

I guess I'm just being impatient, wanting to fulfill hopes of there being a sudden massive champagne POP of clear seeing that forever shatters any idea of self, suddenly making me a peaceful, selfless (as in not selfish) insightful amazing being. Which is of course unrealistic.

Probably need to see that there isn't a self to realise anything, the realising just happens. Any pointers for that?

Very good to see that. :) It's common to want to have our cake and eat it. To see thru the "self" as mere idea, and also to be the self that sees it, the one to have the champagne on ice. :D Maybe have an Awakening Party. LOL

If you were to point a finger back to yourself. This is the REFLEXIVE way of pointing directly back and ask, "Show me the one asking that?" - go looking and look straight thru any sign of a "one", straight thru to the other side.

Despite self being an idea, there are the feelings/sensations that we've been calling "me" for years. Pure habit.
Again, these are no problem. There are feelings/sensations. There is calling that "me". Even that isn't a problem.

But when we take "THIS IS ME" as TRUE < that's when we imagine we are this character with a history, a name, a job, a bank balance, etc, etc.

This is the subtle agreement. Though as you see it, it's not subtle at all. Very obvious. Very obviously NOT who I am.

So, to go back to a pointing you can use as and when. Whatever the question/statement coming up e.g. "C'mon, why can't I see this?" < reflexive, firm, directly, "show me the one asking that?" and the attention turns back on itself.

Have a go with this approach, and share what shows up.

Thank you,
John

[King Nothing]

Yes, that's helping to get through the 'have cake and eat it' issue. The looking and the knowing are also just happening.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi King Nothing,

Yes, that's helping to get through the 'have cake and eat it' issue. The looking and the knowing are also just happening.

Reflexively point directly, precisely, to the asker, the listener, the thinker - see/feel what is there, feelings, sensations, thoughts/ideas all showing up to no-one called "Me" and sourced from no-one called "Me" - a question comes up, bend it back to the source, see the reality of the so-called "self", and in the space that shows up, stay quiet and breathe and be.

best wishes,
John