Do you want a guide?

[Moonlight]

Relax, and play with the experiment a little, Jakob.

[Jakobo]

I've continued doing the exercise and I think where I get stuck is when moving my attention from one point to another, that point gets highlighted. There is now an awareness of lets say my feet when there just moments back weren't non. This creates the feeling of a perciever of the sensation being experienced.

When relaxing everything is just felt to be experienced. Sensations in the body, sounds outside the body and so on. But when consciuosly directing the attention toward something specific there is the feeling of an perciever being involved.

[Moonlight]

When relaxing everything is just felt to be experienced. Sensations in the body, sounds outside the body and so on. But when consciuosly directing the attention toward something specific there is the feeling of an perciever being involved.

Do you mean by this that you feel a 'you' is controlling/directing the attention and then perceiving it? Try this and tell me what you find.

Hold both your hands out in front of you. Now raise the left hand. Bring it down. Now raise either one of the hands and bring it down again.

Is there a you that is making this happen? Define to me please the process of what is happening.

Another one: Close your eyes, and see if there is boundary between the body and 'outside'. Is there separation between 'you' and 'not you' or do you feel sensations at different points? Please describe.

[Jakobo]

When relaxing everything is just felt to be experienced. Sensations in the body, sounds outside the body and so on. But when consciuosly directing the attention toward something specific there is the feeling of an perciever being involved.

Do you mean by this that you feel a 'you' is controlling/directing the attention and then perceiving it?

Yes, I think so. I think the feeling of making effort creates a feeling of a ‘me’. When relaxing the attention can stay in a specific area for a while, or move around to another area, and then another. But when a decision is being made that I’m going to focus on one area for let’s say five minutes then there’s a feeling of effort which is a feeling of a little me doing it ‘in the head’.

Hold both your hands out in front of you. Now raise the left hand. Bring it down. Now raise either one of the hands and bring it down again.

Is there a you that is making this happen? Define to me please the process of what is happening.

No, there’s no ‘me’ to be found that is making a decision. There are thought’s about which hand is going to be raised the next time. But firstly those thoughts just pop up out of nowhere without any control and secondly they don’t direct what is happening as they can be followed or not.

Another one: Close your eyes, and see if there is boundary between the body and 'outside'. Is there separation between 'you' and 'not you' or do you feel sensations at different points? Please describe.

There is for sure an assumption of a ‘me’ and ‘not me’, ‘body’ and ‘outside’ as there are thoughts/mental pictures about 'me and my body'. But when closing my eyes there is only sensations which cannot separate the body from the outside. Sensations are the primary and the only thing which can be trusted. Thoughts are secondary, trying to make sense of the sensations but cannot be trusted.

[Moonlight]

No, there’s no ‘me’ to be found that is making a decision. There are thought’s about which hand is going to be raised the next time.

Excellent observation! Do you see how there is only the illusion of choice and the decision maker? As you go about your usual activities, see what comes first - that what is happening, or the thoughts about it, giving it a story. Do you ever find a decision-maker?

But firstly those thoughts just pop up out of nowhere without any control and secondly they don’t direct what is happening as they can be followed or not.

So, can thoughts be controlled? And can they actually do anything?

But when a decision is being made that I’m going to focus on one area for let’s say five minutes then there’s a feeling of effort which is a feeling of a little me doing it ‘in the head’.

Now, look again. Can you say there is a decision being made, and an actual 'little you' in the head, or just thoughts about it? Is it possible for things to happen without a do-er, a controller?

But when closing my eyes there is only sensations which cannot separate the body from the outside. Sensations are the primary and the only thing which can be trusted. Thoughts are secondary, trying to make sense of the sensations but cannot be trusted.

Yes, very good. We cannot find this separation in actual experience. Can you explain more about sensations being primary and thoughts being secondary? I want to be sure I understand you correctly.

From the observations you have seen, can you tell me about what is experienced and what the minds does?

[Jakobo]

Do you see how there is only the illusion of choice and the decision maker?

Yes, I see that there in no-one making a choice. But it's an overwhelming idea that this always has been the case, and for everyone. It really turn things upside down.

As you go about your usual activities, see what comes first - that what is happening, or the thoughts about it, giving it a story.

I've looked at this continously and it's obvious that what is happening always comes first, and then later the thoughts come. This is what I meant with sensations being primary and thoughts secondary although my language were a bit sloppy :)

So, can thoughts be controlled? And can they actually do anything?

No thought's cannot be controlled. It's funny that most of us humans presume that there is control to be had over thoughts when it so obvious it's impossible to control them.
Whether or not thoughts can do anything - this is my take on it, so far :)
In and of themselves thoughts cannot do anything. But a thought can pop-up saying "I'm ugly" making you feel bad, and in that way then that thought do something. But there wasn't any control to think that thought or not and the impulse/feeling making the thought appear must be primary to the thought itself. Plus - thoughts can be follow and believed in or not, hence they are powerless in and of themselves.

Now, look again. Can you say there is a decision being made, and an actual 'little you' in the head, or just thoughts about it? Is it possible for things to happen without a do-er, a controller?

No, there is just a thought about a 'me'. It is only different feeling-states that we attribute to if there being a me or not. Openness = no me. Effort = a me. But all that is only thoughts. Feelings are just feelings, no more, no less.

From the observations you have seen, can you tell me about what is experienced and what the minds does?

I feel I need more time with this question and I'm just about to start with the dinner now. So I'll be back tomorrow morning.

Many thanks! :)

[Moonlight]

Great observations, Jakob. :) Thank YOU. Keep at it.

Yes, I see that there in no-one making a choice. But it's an overwhelming idea that this always has been the case, and for everyone. It really turn things upside down.

:) In a way, everything changes (perspective), but really, nothing changes as it has always in actuality been so. Do you see how that is?

I've looked at this continously and it's obvious that what is happening always comes first, and then later the thoughts come.

And we are, thinking 'WE' are making everything happen. Let there be a relaxation, a feeling of letting go of the imaginary steering wheel that we grip so tightly.

In and of themselves thoughts cannot do anything. But a thought can pop-up saying "I'm ugly" making you feel bad, and in that way then that thought do something. But there wasn't any control to think that thought or not and the impulse/feeling making the thought appear must be primary to the thought itself. Plus - thoughts can be follow and believed in or not, hence they are powerless in and of themselves.

Yes, a thought cannot do anything. It is not possible for a thought to think or do. The body gets conditioned to react in certain ways to thoughts or our stories about what is going on, the mind then creates further stories and the cycle goes on, but once we know what is going on, it is fascinating to watch the process. And when it is seen through, we can see that thoughts have no power to 'make' us do or be anything.

But all that is only thoughts. Feelings are just feelings, no more, no less.

Beautiful looking.

I look forward to reading your further observations. Please also write how you are feeling now, as opposed to when starting the process.
(Some people get caught up in the need to not use "I" in their conversations. Even if there are no separate entities, we continue to use these pronouns, and talk about you and I. After all, these are useful tools of language for our characters. :) )

[Jakobo]

Thank you Chandi for your encouraging post :)

In a way, everything changes (perspective), but really, nothing changes as it has always in actuality been so. Do you see how that is?

Yes I see that - things have always been as they are. It can't be any other way, not before, not now.

From the observations you have seen, can you tell me about what is experienced and what the minds does?

I think that after having spent years and endless hours in listening to different teachers talking about this non-dualism there is this habit of "yes I got it, lets move on to the next thing". So there is a tendency of reading a question, looking into it and then jumping right to the next one. I do feel that I answer honestly and from experience but maybe that I don't let my on answers sink in deeply enough.
There are moments when I let my own seeing have some felt impact, but then back comes the daily chores and nothing of what I've seen seems to have made any difference.

I read this in Gateless gatecrashers "Look at the truth, accept it is truth and let the true reveal itself". It feels like a good advice to me at this moment, just as what you wrote: "Let there be a relaxation, a feeling of letting go of the imaginary steering wheel that we grip so tightly." Seems like the most reasonable thing to do at this point ;) Thanks!

[Moonlight]

Yes I see that - things have always been as they are. It can't be any other way, not before, not now.

Very true

So there is a tendency of reading a question, looking into it and then jumping right to the next one. I do feel that I answer honestly and from experience but maybe that I don't let my on answers sink in deeply enough.
There are moments when I let my own seeing have some felt impact, but then back comes the daily chores and nothing of what I've seen seems to have made any difference.

There is no hurry. Just keep looking. :) What you said about nothing seeming to have made a difference, can you explain what you mean by that, what difference are you expecting? We are not aiming for a constant no-self state, or a unity-conscious experience. We continue to function as before. As we decided, we are simply trying to see what is real and what is not. Just keep your inquiry focused to that, and let things unfold as it will. Don't be expecting a big impact or everything falling into place or sudden end to suffering. Recognize your expectations as more thoughts and let them go.

A question for you. When you feeling some intense emotion, like anger, or sadness, or joy, what is happening? Try to observe this, and then write me.

Lots of love, Chandi

[Jakobo]

What you said about nothing seeming to have made a difference, can you explain what you mean by that, what difference are you expecting?

Well there are those expectations I wrote about before about 'not being swept away in what's happening'. I think what I mean is that when spending some time with the questions you give me there are sometimes a feeling of a release of a kind. A letting go. But in everyday living (lets say at work) all what I write here is just felt to be mental stuff, nothing grounded impacting the way I go about my day. But yes - all this is thoughts, distractions distracting me from simply looking in the moment at what's true.

A question for you. When you feeling some intense emotion, like anger, or sadness, or joy, what is happening? Try to observe this, and then write me.

I've had quite a calm day, but I will try to observe this once an intense emotion happens :)

[Moonlight]

OK, even regular arising of emotion will do for observation :)

And remember, the sense of self more or less stays even after realization, and is necessary for us to function in the world. It is that we know that it is not referencing anything real.

[Jakobo]

When you feeling some intense emotion, like anger, or sadness, or joy, what is happening?

I can't say that I've been particularly good at observing this during the day but emotions are felt all the time so...
Probably the most obvious thing when feeling these emotions is that there's no time for reflection or analysing. The more intense the feeling, the less thinking. You're just caught up in the feeling/what's happening. Then of course the mind always enter at some point and tell stories which generally makes the emotion continue for a longer time than necessary. That is especially the case with negative emotions.

What I've noticed before is that the more the mind is involved and the thoughts are believed, the more uncomfortable so called tough emotions are. Without thoughts being believed in feeling sad can actually in a way be felt to be a positive thing.

I don't know if I'm looking at your question from the right angle, but this is what comes to mind.

[Moonlight]

OK, let's go step by step Take any one emotion. What is being felt now?

When this emotion/feeling is being experienced, is there a you that is sad, angry, happy, irritated, tired, bored? If not, then what is happening?

[Jakobo]

OK, let's go step by step Take any one emotion. What is being felt now?

When this emotion/feeling is being experienced, is there a you that is sad, angry, happy, irritated, tired, bored? If not, then what is happening?

At this moment there is a feeling of being tired and relaxed, but also some agitation in the background. These feelings are simply present. They weren't chosen, there's no controlling them and there's no me experiencing them. What is happening? I don't know. The feelings and emotions are just there, being experinced. Thoughts pop up trying to explain why it's these emotions that's being experienced at the moment. In other word, creating stories. It's just thoughts...

[Moonlight]

Feelings present as sensations being experienced and stories explaining them.

Great observation. :)

Tell me about the past and future. What are they?