Ready to go

[philkingston]

Hi Deejay,

Concentrated on the quote below since we last spoke and again it's ridiculously simple, which sometimes means my brain won't accept it as a real answer/observation, but what I notice how absent 'I' am most of the time, there is just stuff happening ( responding to children, cleaning up, thoughts about more cleaning up, thoughts about packing, desire to watch films, thoughts about the meaning and significance of things, pooing, delight in the sky etc...) then there are times when a sense of self has appropriated actions and events and said they're 'mine' or what 'I did' ( actions that competed with other desire, arguments with people, decisions that feel difficult...) and then periods that feel like the I is in charge.

Overall the sense that the ego is a story that's jumping in after the fact is strongest.

- Seeing how doing unfolds without bracing, forcing, tensing, or 'I'.
And reporting back on what happens.[/b]

Oh and in answer to this one...

I'm a very deluded type

What/where is this deluded type? :-)

No 'where' in that it's a habit stream, no 'what' in that it doesn't exits permanently other than being a tendency.

Okay today is all about thoughts are not reality. And I shall be playing Santa later, I wonder if there is any connection.

Love

LV

[Deejay]

Hi LV,
Sorry I didn't reply yesterday, the message alert didn't come through on my phone.

there are times when a sense of self has appropriated actions and events and said they're 'mine' or what 'I did'

You looked closely before at the illusory 'sense of self', and how it is fabricated.
Can the 'sense of self' actually appropriate anything? Or do you mean that thoughts arise which claim actions as 'mine' or what 'I did'?

Okay today is all about thoughts are not reality. And I shall be playing Santa later, I wonder if there is any connection

……. :-)

and then periods that feel like the I is in charge.

What is this 'I' that is supposedly in charge? Is there anything that could possibly be in charge? What/where is it, and describe it being in charge, how does it happen?

Look at experience arising: is it possible to be in charge, to determine what happens next?

What/where is this deluded type? :-)
No 'where' in that it's a habit stream, no 'what' in that it doesn't exits permanently other than being a tendency.

Can you see 'deluded type' is a thought - that it doesn't refer to anything in direct experience? Or can you actually find anything that is deluded?

Love and warm yuletide wishes,
Deejay

[philkingston]

Hi Deejay,

Ho, ho, ho. Seasons greetings.


Can the 'sense of self' actually appropriate anything? Or do you mean that thoughts arise which claim actions as 'mine' or what 'I did'?

I mean thoughts arise. And this is to the point as the seeing thoughts as not reality has been a hard one. Very tricky to even find a place to investigate this question and the clearest response I had made it obvious that this distinction is strongly resisted. Yes, the contents of direct experience are more real in direct experience but emotionally there is strong attachment to thoughts as just as real.


What is this 'I' that is supposedly in charge? Is there anything that could possibly be in charge? What/where is it, and describe it being in charge, how does it happen?


There is a flow of desires, thoughts, movements and sensations which stick together coherently enough to create a sense of some thing being in charge.


Look at experience arising: is it possible to be in charge, to determine what happens next?

But when I can attend closely enough to watch experience arising then yes it simply arise with the thoughts ' I do this' stepping in afterwards.

Another thing here I wanted to share. I've struggles a lot with what is doing all this watching and reporting back if it isn't just thought as well and had an experience recently that there is a knowing which is different to thoughts. What is left to be a witness when the constructions of 'self' tumble down?


[quote]
What/where is this deluded type? :-)
No 'where' in that it's a habit stream, no 'what' in that it doesn't exits permanently other than being a tendency. [/quo
Can you see 'deluded type' is a thought - that it doesn't refer to anything in direct experience? Or can you actually find anything that is deluded?

No, but it better describes a regular thought and consequent behaviours better than saying I'm a greed type, for example. There are patterns to behaviour.


Warm Yuletide greetings to you too.

Love

LV xxx

[Deejay]

Hi LV,

What is this 'I' that is supposedly in charge? Is there anything that could possibly be in charge? What/where is it, and describe it being in charge, how does it happen?

There is a flow of desires, thoughts, movements and sensations which stick together coherently enough to create a sense of some thing being in charge.

You have already observed and described the process whereby the illusory sense of self is fabricated, observed how there are different components at any one time, glued together by the mind. (Maybe look again at that part of the dialogue?). So look again now at this illusory sense of something being in charge.
What is actually there, and which sense or senses are these components experienced through?

You didn't answer the last bit of my question above. So tackle that now: describe it being in charge, how it happens?

there is a knowing which is different to thoughts.

Yes! The knowing of experience. Experiencing. Seeing, hearing, tasting, etc.

Keep it really simple and succinct. Stay with seeing through the illusion of being in charge.

Love,
Deejay

[philkingston]

Hi Deejay,

What is actually there, and which sense or senses are these components experienced through?

Have been chasing this all day, in odd moments, and feel like I need more time to get a sustained look. But also sense this is just resistance and so want to record here that....

Folding some washing, there are tactile and movement sensations, visual sensations, decision/responses to stimuli (the next thing to be folded, which pile it goes in). These are the raw material. Added to that is the thought that 'I am doing this'.

This surrender to what is happening seems possible and simple any time but there is resistance, a disbelief it would be possible to let go into just letting life happen 'through me'. Like now, typing this, the taste of crisps in my mouth, the hum of electricity, the soft tapping on the iPad glass, thoughts swirl in my head, the traffic outside, the urge to let go into this, the desire to do so....

You didn't answer the last bit of my question above. So tackle that now: describe it being in charge, how it happens?

Much of the time there's no awareness at all of being in charge, there is responding to events, but when there is tis sense of being in charge it happens because their is the thought that 'I' have made a decision and seen it through. This happens very quickly after the event and I have done enough exercises now to know that it is AFTER the event. Still don't know how to surrender into this.


.

Keep it really simple and succinct. Stay with seeing through the illusion of being in charge.

Will do.

Love,

LV

[Deejay]

Hi LV,

This happens very quickly after the event and I have done enough exercises now to know that it is AFTER the event. Still don't know how to surrender into this.

There is no need to try to 'surrender into this'. Look around. Notice that 'surrender' is not needed to see what is around you. Listen. No need for ''surrender' to hear sounds.

Reality is already here, complete, right now.

You don't have to do anything to see it.

IT ALREADY IS, and that INCLUDES THE KNOWING OF IT.

The thought that 'you' need to do something to see through self - surrender, try, think it through, whatever, IS the illusion of self.

Look at the body moving. Do you move it? Or does it just move?
Look at attention. Notice how attention moves from one thing to another - sensations, thoughts, visual impressions. Do you move it? Or does it just move?
Raise an arm. Do you decide which one to raise? Or does it just happen, life living itself?
I know you've done these exercises before. But this is a fresh moment.

Relax, and allow this to be seen.

If there is doubt, notice that these are just thoughts. They are irrelevant. Return to allowing reality to be seen once again. Report back ONLY on your direct experience of doing this. Let reality show itself. It's as simple as that. There is nothing missing.

Love,
Deejay

[philkingston]

Hi Deejay,

Sorry for the delay. For some reason finding this really hard. You mentioned a blizzard of doubting thoughts in are previous post and blizzard is the best way to describe how I'm not following these simple exercises through.

The experience is of seeing the seen, hearing the heard, feeling the felt, noticing thoughts and then I'm gone in some daydream or distraction. Have been at this for three days now. I can answer these questions below but it seems to make no difference to the thoughts continuing to talk.

Look at the body moving. Do you move it? Or does it just move?
Look at attention. Notice how attention moves from one thing to another - sensations, thoughts, visual impressions. Do you move it? Or does it just move?
Raise an arm. Do you decide which one to raise? Or does it just happen, life living itself?
I know you've done these exercises before. But this is a fresh moment.

Relax, and allow this to be seen.

Instinctively this feels like the most fruitful thing to be doing.

Report back ONLY on your direct experience of doing this. Let reality show itself. It's as simple as that. There is nothing missing.

I'll have another go now...


There is touch and hardness as this is typed. There are the colours and shapes in front, there is the soft tapping on the glass of a tablet. There are noises upstaIrs and cars outside. There is a reaching for something to happen. There is shallow breathing, which deepens once noticed. There is this moment and the thought "it's not happening"

Have to leave it there. Wanted to check in. Will keep relaxing.

Love

LV x

Love,
Deejay[/quote]

[Deejay]

Hi LV,
Happy New Year!
More tomorrow,
Love,
Deejay

[Deejay]

Hi LV,
I'm really sorry, but I'm feeling I don't have anything more I can offer here. So I think it's time for me to stop guiding you.

Let me know how this lands - either here or by pm.

Love,
Deejay

[philkingston]

Wow. Big abrupt. Landing pretty badly


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jack'n'theBox]

Hi LV, this is JV here, I’ve guided a couple of people you know. I’ll be happy to work with you for a bit if you agree.

Above you say there is the thought “it’s not happening” – this is like saying “it’s not raining” – where is the “it” that is or is not raining? “It” is a mental abstraction, a figure of speech. You can look all you like with your eyes, with binoculars, with a telescope and you will never find the “it” that rains – because there is simply rain, or not, there is no “it” doing it or not doing it.

Life is like that – there is no “I” doing it. Experience just shows up. It is showing up now. “I” is an abstraction – look all you like and all you will find is seemingly discrete experiences divided up by thought into neat packages.
“You” don’t need to stop the thoughts – “you” don’t need to do anything. Nothing needs to happen that isn’t already happening now.

Sit down quietly now and simply be there. Now describe to me as directly as you can – where is the dividing line between “me” and “everything else”? Can such a line be found?

[philkingston]

Hi JV,

Thanks for stepping in. Very happy to work with you. I am aware of the results of your dialogues and they're very positive.

There isn't any dividing line between 'me' and everything else. Sitting here, there are sights, sounds, my bum on the chair, a pain in the back, sensations of anxiety about children, my wife just in to ask a question, etc...part of this texture are thoughts that 'I' am doing these things but there's no actual 'inside' where a 'me' can be found that's distinct from other sensations, experiences.

The thought area is subtler, harder to see as clearly as physical sensation.

Best,

LV

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK good. Try this:

Sit and look around the room -- don't label the objects seen there -- just get a sense that "sight" is made up of shape and colour. Now notice those parts of your body that are in view -- notice that they are simply shapes and colour too, just like every other object in view.

Notice if there is any resistance to just seeing body parts as shapes and colours -- or is there something that says that body parts are "me" and other shapes and colours "not me"?

OK now pinch your arm. Now there is a new sensation added to shapes and colours. Thought says that this sensation is "in my arm". Really look however, relax into the sensation -- try with eyes open -- with eyes closed -- can you actually locate the sensation anywhere? (tip: look for its 'edges' -- where it starts and stops).

Now look again at the hand pinching the arm -- can you say wth 100% certainty that the sensation is happening in a specific "place"?

[philkingston]

I see that it is habit and imagination that puts touch, sight and place together to create the experience of 'my arm being pinched.

At first, while looking, the resistance to seeing my arm as indistinct from other visual sensation is based on automatically linking kinaesthetic sensations with visual ones. When this can be let go of then 'my' body becomes part of overall experience.

The sensation of pinching is free floating. Yes there are compelling associated sensations - the visuals of fingers, arms, skin etc... all 'line up ' to corroborate the convention that I am pinching my arm- but when looked at I see these are yoked together by habit and thought.

Being able to see this is hard to sustain. For me, or this particular stream of pyscho-physical sensation, it requires a lot of concentration and there is only a second or so of , ' Ah, right, that's different'. Should I be working for longer periods of seeing. I'm aware the illusion of self just takes a moment to be undermined but my journey so far to get there has been repetitive, returning often to the same place. I'm wondering if there is something particular I am missing.

Best

LV




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[Jack'n'theBox]

OK great. You’ve been doing this for so long now that you get the theory – but it is still theory for you.

The key thing you say above is “being able to see this is hard to sustain”.
We aren’t looking for a “state of seeing” – something that requires concentration to see. Seeing is effortless. It isn’t something that “you” can do. It is just known.

Look at it this way – we’ve just had Xmas, right? So there were a bunch of guys in Santa suits? You didn’t have to concentrate hard to “see” that they were just guys in Santa suits, right. You knew that they were impersonators, there is no Santa – it’s just dress up.

So we aren’t looking for longer periods of seeing – we’re looking for a paradigm shift. Like moving from a belief in the world as flat to a belief in the world as round. Once you “get” that the world is round you can’t go back to believing that it is flat. But the thing is it still SEEMS flat. But we know it isn’t really. That’s the kind of shift we are looking for. We can still talk in terms of conventional reality -- but there is a knowing that this is just a way of speaking, not the way things really are.

You ask “is there something I’m missing”.

Look at it this way – really look:

Can “I” see something or miss something?
What is it that “returns to the same place”?
Is “I” on a journey?