Seeking a Guide

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Desideratum
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby Desideratum » Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:32 am

I do not wish to know what the truth is. I want to know what is your experience of this statement. In your experience what is the difference between what is happening now and in a experience.
What the truth is or how it should be, is of no relevance. Only what is your experience right now is.
An experience is what is heppening when the concept of the self arises ... when "I" show up, its an experience. ALSO, when I refer to something that happened in the past, when I objectify it, its an experience.
Are you CLEAR that there is no self ?
Here is what I am clear on... that the self is not a default state. it shows up when something triggers it. When its here, its real, or at least it FEELS real. The self is an idea, a thought, but it still feels real when its activated.
What about desires that arise?
They arise ... they can trigger the idea of "me." Just as suffering does. But not always ...
Now in this moment what desires have you created ? Or do these desires simply arise and take the label of I ?
the latter ... I do not create my desires. They show up and take the label of I, just as you said.
Same thing with suffering. Do you create suffering willingly ? If no how can you own it ? If it simply arises is it yours ?
I don't create it willingly ... but I participate in its creation. It comes up, and is there, it evokes the thought of "I" and triggers that identification. I see the mechanics of it, but I cannot escape it.

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akamad007
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby akamad007 » Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:04 pm

Hi Des,

Are you saying that the Self is a concept, and that the response to it, is an experience ?
How is the self activated ? Can you observe or differentiate between activated and unactivated ?
Can you say the self is dormant and becomes active when the organism Des is threatened/euphoric or has heightened senses? If yes is the self a survival mechanism ?

Where and what is self when not existing ? Does it have any substance when it does exist other than the feelings you mentioned?


Love,
Akash

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Desideratum
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby Desideratum » Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:37 pm

Sorry for the late reply...
Are you saying that the Self is a concept, and that the response to it, is an experience
?
That sounds accurate .... the self is a concept. When I refer to things that happen(ed) I call it an experience. Experience can mean there is the idea of a self there, but I tend to use the word generally. But I think most of the time when I refer to an experience, the "self" has been evoked.
How is the self activated ? Can you observe or differentiate between activated and unactivated ?
I know with its activated, I don't know when its not. Anything that brings up the idea of me, activates the self. The idea, or thought of me is the self being activated. Examples would be an argument where my being right is at stake, or when depressed over a relationship issue, or when anxious or something. Even when in joy, or celebration of something, anything prideful. Those all bring "me" into the spotlight, and I experience my investment in myself.
Can you say the self is dormant and becomes active when the organism Des is threatened/euphoric or has heightened senses? If yes is the self a survival mechanism ?
Yes, absolutely. The self is a survival mechanism for itself. We need ego to function in the world, but when that ego is identified with, the self is born and we now believe that is who we are. We forget that we are not that at all.
Where and what is self when not existing ? Does it have any substance when it does exist other than the feelings you mentioned?
Since the self is an idea, when its not being thought about, or believed in, it doesn't exist anywhere. It is just an idea, or a thought. So if you don't think that thought, the self disappears and is nonexistent.

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akamad007
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby akamad007 » Fri Nov 21, 2014 7:40 am

Hi Des,

I will ask you the final questions again. Please take your time and answer.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience

6) Anything to add?

Love,
Akash

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Desideratum
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby Desideratum » Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:02 am

Hi ...
I am taking my time in answering these questions. Probably answer a couple a day and then post. I can post something in the meantime if you wish.

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akamad007
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby akamad007 » Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:47 am

No take your time :)
Answer when you are comfortable.

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Desideratum
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby Desideratum » Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:36 am

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
There isn't one intrinsically. It exists as an idea, brought forth by my mind, that's it. When the thought is not there, the self is not there.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion happens when the ego gets involved somehow. When I "need" a self to survive something, or achieve something. Even if that need is just some kind of attachment. Like looking good, winning an argument, having some kind of celebration, or defending myself. It happens when others assert their sense of self in such a way that causes mine to appear.

What the illusion is is the part of us that exists in the world, the part that functions separately from others starts to believe it is US, it does not want to disappear, so when it arises for the reasons I said above, we attach to it, we become glued together and the identification is formed.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels mostly the same, but when I do "see" it, see the self emerging, I know what it is. I know its just an idea, it is a thought that has arisen for ITS survival, not mine, even though it feels like it is me while its happening. I know its NOT me because if it were, I would not be able to see it, and it would be here all the time.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
I was sitting at work, and it struck me that the self is only "here" at certain times, when evoked. I saw that its not here by default. There is no intrisic self here at all.
5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience
I have maintained all along that free will is an illusion. I still think that it is. I had that belief since before coming to The Gate. Decision, intention, choice, control, free will, they are all facets of the same thing. We do not have the power of choice. We have PERSONAL WILL, Individual Will, it is ours, but it is given to us. We don't actually create our choices. One can do a very simple experiement to see this.

We can examine our thoughts, our preferences, and see something that we feel strongly about, a strong preference of some kind. Can any of us change that preference at will? Can you decide to stop liking chocolate and start liking vanilla? If you take a good look at intention, there is no way to marshal intention. When we intend to do something, that feeling shows up and occupies us. I have heard it said that people doin't do what they want, they do what they intend. Anyone who puts off doping the laundry or some other task for days, and then does it almost on autopilot knows what intention is.

How it works I don't know. I know that these thoughts and ideas, intentions, etc. seem to appear and take over the mind. Or, at least, reside as thoughts and intentions and compel us to act on them. Preferences, like that for jazz over Lithuanian nose flute polkas are also just4 there. They are given to us. It feels like they are our ideas, they are "ours," and not anyone else's, but if you really look, really examine from whence thoughts, preferences, intentions, decisions, come, they come from nowhere. They just appear and BECOME ours, be WE do not MAKE them.

What we are responsible for, as citizens of the world, is everything. That is the way of the world and its a good thing. But, in truth, all we are responsible for is to BE. And if I really try to answer that question, in truth, there is no responsibility. Unless the "I" concept is awake, unless the "self" program is running, there is no responsibility, because there is no one to be responsible.

6) Anything to add?
I will think about this for a while, nothing at the moment except for this:
I am clear that the self is an idea. That this idea shows up under certain circumstances. And, that I can easily "lose" whatever it is I really am, or that really is, because that "self" fills up all the space of my consciousness and feels real, like that is who I am.

Its grace, really, to see this happening, even if just a little. Intellectual understanding is NOT ENOUGH. Its a good start, but every tiny bit of "space" between me and that self that exists is a blessing.

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akamad007
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby akamad007 » Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:31 am

Hi Des,

Can you please answer the following questions.
"the part that functions separately from others starts to believe it is US"
What is and where is this part that functions separately from others and believes it is a self?
"it is a thought that has arisen for ITS survival, not mine"
Do thoughts or the sense of being a self need to survive? What can you see that is at risk?
"I was sitting at work, and it struck me that the self is only "here" at certain times, when evoked."
How can something which you can't find in your experience be evoked? What can evoke a self?
" I know that these thoughts and ideas, intentions, etc. seem to appear and take over the mind."
If you look now, can you see a bunch of thoughts taking over a mind? Can you even see thoughts when focusing in the experience that is happening instead of focusing in thinking?
When getting lost in thoughts happens - what can be free from getting lost in thoughts?
"every tiny bit of "space" between me and that self that exists is a blessing."
What is this me that needs to distance itself from an existing self? And what is this self that exists?

Love,
Akash

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Desideratum
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby Desideratum » Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:56 pm

Again, sorry for the delay, my computer at home died, so I am waiting for its replacement to take on the above questions.

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Desideratum
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby Desideratum » Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:34 am

Can you please answer the following questions.
What is and where is this part that functions separately from others and believes it is a self?
Its an idea, a thought, it exists in thought only.
Do thoughts or the sense of being a self need to survive? What can you see that is at risk?
The thought of "I" needs to survive, or it wants to survive. It believes it is real and will do anything to survive.
How can something which you can't find in your experience be evoked? What can evoke a self?
It is triggered, its a thought that gets triggered by either an event of some kind or another thought.
If you look now, can you see a bunch of thoughts taking over a mind?
No, well, maybe. The more you see it the less power it has to take over your mind.
Can you even see thoughts when focusing in the experience that is happening instead of focusing in thinking?
If you mean can you perceive thoughts while just focusing and being in the present moment, then I would say no. In that moment there is no self and thoughts exist without the thinker being there.

When getting lost in thoughts happens - what can be free from getting lost in thoughts?
When lost in thoughts you're lost, the real us is lost, the self concept arises.

"every tiny bit of "space" between me and that self that exists is a blessing."


What is this me that needs to distance itself from an existing self? And what is this self that exists?
Yes, I know the way I wrote that makes no sense. If the thoughts can be seen, noticed from somewhere, they their hold over me loosens. Those thoughts are the "self" thought. The stronger the self thought is, the stronger the belief that I am that thought. When there is space around the "I" thought, that thought is seen from something that has no I, its seen from an empty silece.

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akamad007
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby akamad007 » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:26 pm

Hey Des,
When lost in thoughts you're lost, the real us is lost, the self concept arises.
Who/What is the real self ?
Its an idea, a thought, it exists in thought only
Is it comprised of anything other than thought ?
The thought of "I" needs to survive, or it wants to survive. It believes it is real and will do anything to survive
Is the nature of your thoughts simply habitual, or are you saying something else ?
The more you see it the less power it has to take over your mind.
Is the mind something other than a label for the thought streams that arise ?
In that moment there is no self and thoughts exist without the thinker being there.
In experience, (not logic) is there ever a thinker of thoughts ? ..or to put it a little differently, When experiencing a thought (stream) is there ever anything else (experienced) ?

Is there an experiencer, experiencing the experienced ? LOOK, answer from experiencing.

Love,
Akash

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Desideratum
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby Desideratum » Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:12 am

Who/What is the real self ?
I'll use the terminology we have already been using, which is to say that there is no real, intrisic "self." There is a conceived self that arise in thought, and also subsides back to nonexistence. When its not there, there is no self.
Is it comprised of anything other than thought ?
Feelings as well, thoughts and feelings. By feelings I mean both sensations in the body and emotions.
Is the nature of your thoughts simply habitual, or are you saying something else ?
Habitual for sure, but even deeper than that. I would say its like an addiction.
Is the mind something other than a label for the thought streams that arise ?
I don't know. The mind include the intellect I think. It includes the will as well. It definitely includes all those thoughts that arise, the ego, etc.
In experience, (not logic) is there ever a thinker of thoughts ? ..or to put it a little differently, When experiencing a thought (stream) is there ever anything else (experienced) ?
I guess that in experience when a thought stream happens, its similar to when any other experience is taking place. There isn't really anyone thinking the thoughts, UNLESS the "self" is invoked by that stream. Ig the self become part of the stream of thoughts, then yes, it becomes the experiencer.
Is there an experiencer, experiencing the experienced ? LOOK, answer from experiencing.
There is when the self is invoked or suffering is taking place. At that point the self concept is happening. Otherwise no.

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akamad007
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby akamad007 » Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:45 am

Hi Des,

Are there any different kinds of thought ?

Are some thoughts more real than others ?

How are the thoughts of self any different than other thoughts ?

What is the state of noself?

You are saying self can be invoked. Then what is self ?

How is it different from normal thoughts ?


Akash

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Desideratum
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby Desideratum » Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:58 pm

Are there any different kinds of thought ?
Well, cheating a bit and looking at your question below I will say that there are thoughts that invoke the self and thoughts that do not.
Are some thoughts more real than others ?
No, all thoughts are real, they are all equally real. And they are real. What is not necessarily real is the existence of the subject of the thoughts, for instance, a thought about in intrinsic self is real, but the intrinsic self is just a concept and not real.
How are the thoughts of self any different than other thoughts ?
They cause us to buy into the notion that we have a self, or are a self.
What is the state of noself?
It is the natural state we are in unles a thought of self is happening.
You are saying self can be invoked. Then what is self ?
The self is real, and gets invoked by thoughts, but it is not original, it is not intrinsic to us. It is a temporary state in which we have this concept of us as different from them, it is the state wherein we are able to suffer. It is a program, a belief that appears under certain conditions and thoughts.
How is it different from normal thoughts ?
Normal thoughts are just happening, like trying to troubleshoot a computer problem, or deciding what to have for dinner, or chopping celery, whatever. There is no involvement of the self idea.

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akamad007
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby akamad007 » Thu Dec 25, 2014 11:49 pm

Hi Des,

How is a thought of noself, not being identified with a story ?

Would not thoughts that are an opinion about how enjoyable (or not) or how competent (or not), be thoughts that not only invoke that self, but originate in the story of the Self ?
it is the state wherein we are able to suffer.
Who suffers ?

Thanks & Regards
Akash


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