Thread for SD

[Hare]

Hi!

"Enjoy exploring"...

Well yes, meeting experience isn't always enjoyable. it's just what it is. But investigating experience with openness and curiosity can be satisfying.

Not static, tho experiences may feel similar or repetitive or 'stuck'

In DE, is anything similar, repetitive or stuck? Sraddhadharini, please take as much time as you need and really have a good look at this. Report back from DE only. I'm not interested in commentary.

Feelings just happening and awareness of feelings also happening. That's all.

In DE, are there feelings (or whatever) happening + awareness of them happening? Are there 2 different things here? Is there a directly experiencable division, or is the division added on by mind?

X H

[Sraddhadharani]

Hello Hare,

"Meeting experience isn't always enjoyable"......No, but really meeting it just lets it be what it is and that is v. powerful esp when experience connected to potent triggers-grief, loss etc. Really sitting with and looking at what was arising in around loss of my friend yesterday felt 'better' and more helpful than just getting caught up in 'emotional' stuff. And put me in contact with the love for him within me which is not lost even tho he has gone.

"In DE is anything similar, repetitive or stuck?"........Sitting quietly after writing above. Hearing sounds, feeling physical sensations esp slight ache in what mind identifies as knees. Visual experience happening. Heavy feeling in chest, thoughts arising around what has just been written above. Atmosphere or mood mind identifies around loss of friend and attention going to this; mind connecting this up with previous similar experiences-'story' of grief, idea of 'sameness', 'repetition', 'unchangingness' of experience coming from mind/thought/memory. Sighing happening. Attention coming back to physical experience. Strong sensation in left foot-left leg moving and flexing of foot happening, strong sensations in foot going. Looking around room happening and thoughts arising-about what to do next, along with some story about what should have already happened but hasn't (i.e. housework). Tone of thought/story harsh-again, mind stuff around things/'me' 'never being different/getting better', 'same old same old' etc. Atmosphere of familiarity of this stuff situated within mental experience. Tightness in solar plexus happening and slight ache in heart area. Ache in right wrist and sensation in hands mind labels 'cold'. Just sitting here, strong physical sensation where body meets cushion tho cannot tell where one stops and other starts-just physical sensation and mind naming 'body', 'cushion'. Mind quieter and more settled. Attention with ache in heart area. Now with gurgling in belly. Thoughts arising-associated with Luke along with thought 'this again'. Idea of 'sameness' coming from mind. Looking out of window happening and thoughts fade. Sighing happening. 'Similar', 'repetitive', 'stuck' etc all ideas situated within mind. In DE just what is happening now.

"In DE are there 2 different things happening i.e. feelings and awareness of them happening?"......No, not 2 different things, just experience happening and trying to describe it in language-using 'and' makes it look like 2 different things i.e. feelings AND awareness. No directly experienceable division, any sense of division added on by mind, cannot be found when looked at directly.

S'dh x.

[Hare]

Hi!

really meeting it just lets it be what it is and that is v. powerful esp when experience connected to potent triggers-grief, loss etc. Really sitting with and looking at what was arising in around loss of my friend yesterday felt 'better' and more helpful than just getting caught up in 'emotional' stuff.

Yes it's good to meet grief (and everything!) directly. Though just to be clear, the specific 'content' of thoughts / emotions isn't what we're looking at here. We are looking at whether the 'content' is in any way fixed / absolutely real: are any thoughts and emotions 'something' that can 'have' actual existence'? Are passing thoughts and emotions actual reality? Or are they just believed / assumed to be real in the moment...until other experiences come along and are equally believed? Look carefully. DE only! No commentary: see this directly, not just as another idea. Be rigorous.

in contact with the love for him within me which is not lost even tho he has gone

:-)

Is there love within 'me' or simply love?

'Similar', 'repetitive', 'stuck' etc all ideas situated within mind.

Yup. This is story. Is there any stuckness whatsoever when the story isn't believed and identified with? LOOK.

In DE just what is happening now.

Can we be 'in' or 'out' of DE? Is there anywhere else to be? (Don't think about it! Look!) Is this a division added by mind?

No directly experienceable division, any sense of division added on by mind, cannot be found when looked at directly.

No indeed! Is the assumption / sense of self the same? Something added on by mind?

Have a really good look at this. Take as much time as needed:

Is there an I, OTHER THAN the habitual assumption that one exists? Is there an I, other than the belief in one? Is there an I, other than the latter on addition to experience?

x H

[Sraddhadharani]

Hello Hare,

"Are passing thoughts and emotions actual reality......look carefully, DE only......be rigorous"....... Sitting quietly. Visual experience, hearing experience and physical experience all happening and paramount in awareness. Felt experience of breathing and sound of breath. Hearing of sound mind calls 'wind'. Slight sensation of tension in area mind identifies as belly. Sensation mind names as heat happening in area identified as head-taking off of hat happening. Random thoughts happening-cannot be seen, touched, heard, tasted, smelt.. No way of connecting with them through sense contact. Sensation of contraction and strong heartbeat in chest area which mind calls 'anxiety'. But again this 'anxiety' cannot be found in direct experience, only sensations in body and awareness that mental experience is happening and when looked at, mind is naming experience in this way and creating 'story' around not knowing how to do this. Actual experience is that words are coming, typing is happening, the doing of this is happening, so these thoughts and emotions are not 'real', just content of mental experience which can't be found in, or believed to be, actual reality or DE. Having mental experience is, but not content of thought/emotion/story.

Am going to post this now as need to make phonecall and don't want to lose it. Will finish posting after phonecall X.

[Hare]

Just a quick reply for now - when you continue, please don't use the phrase '...which mind names as...' or similar. Just as near as possible to the raw experience. (I don't need to know what the content is - at all). If what you write seems a bit vague, or a bit formless, that doesn't matter in the least. I'm interested in you staying with DE and not getting drawn right back into naming etc... 'what mind says'.

It can be useful to do the exercises actually sat at your computer / laptop, so what you're writing is in the present as much as possible, not in the past tense.

Sensation of contraction and strong heartbeat in chest area

What happens if you stay with the pure sensations...don't go into naming and story? Try it!

x H

[Sraddhadharani]

Hi Hare, thanks for mini-post!

"It can be useful to do excercises actually sat at your computer"......This is what I have been doing all along.

"Are passing thoughts and emotions actual reality?........What happens if you stay with the pure sensations?".......Visual experience happening, light of screen, backdrop of room and view from window. Hearing of sounds happening, humming noise, wind noise, whining noises from dog and from tinnitus. Sensations of touch-feelings in fingers, temperature. Strong sensations in area of contact with ground. Sensations and sounds of breathing. Heavy sensation in area of eyes. Closing eyes......, just sitting here happening.......Sensations in solar plexus-tightness and flashes of stronger sensations or energy, pulsing. Dragging, aching feeling in heart area. Closing eyes again....visual sensation behind eyelids. Feeling of tension in jaw. Unexpected sound experience happening-phone ringing-strong sensation of thumping in chest area. Thumping quietening. Sensations and sounds of stomach gurgling and sharp sensation in left foot. Sound of dog breathing, wood in burner crackling. Feeling of heaviness in whole of body. Sighing happening. Wisps of thought like shadows flickering, no strong story or emotion happening. Just sitting.....sound happening.......breathing happening.......sensation of glasses on nose feeling very apparent right now.......breathing happening, hearing happening, visual experience of some sort happening whether eyes open or closed, physical sensations coming and going......Looking back at instruction/question for this excercise......No words coming........still no words.....

"Is there love within 'me' or simply love?".......Love......'within' and 'me' just idea/belief/story.

"Is there any stuckness when story is not identified or believed in?".....No, just flow of experience.

"Can we be in or out of DE?"......Nowhere else to be but DE, tho can be distracted/caught up in thoughts/mental events/emotions so not fully experiencing DE.

"Is the assumption/sense of self the same?"......Yes, assumption/sense cannot be found anywhere else but in mind. Assumption/story etc of 'I' not to be found in DE-just experience happening, experience of aliveness happening, experience of thoughts etc happening.

"Is there an 'I' other than habitual assumption that one exists?".........No. Just habitual assumption.

"Is there an 'I' other than belief in one?"......No, just belief of mind.

"Is there an 'I' other than the later addition to experience?"....... No 'I' other than later addition to experience.

S'dh X.

[Hare]

"Is there love within 'me' or simply love?".......Love......'within' and 'me' just idea/belief/story.

"Is there any stuckness when story is not identified or believed in?".....No, just flow of experience.

:-) Nice.

See how there is nothing to be lost in seeing through the illusion of self. (I'm wondering if there is fear about losing the self? Well you can't lose something that never existed in the first place!) Everything continues to flow on: feelings, thoughts, experiences. All that is lost is stuckness: the habit of perceiving the flow of life as consisting of fixed 'things', with a fixed 'me' (or a fixed 'mind'?) having the experiences.

.Nowhere else to be but DE, tho can be distracted/caught up in thoughts/mental events/emotions so not fully experiencing DE

Who can be distracted etc?

This is a 'no...BUT' answer: from the 'but' onwards, you're moving into commentary. Please notice in this dialogue whenever you write 'but', 'still' or 'just' and check if this marks a move into the realm of 'map' rather than actual 'territory'.

What's it like to be out of experience? Can you be out of direct experience?

Yes, assumption/sense [of self] cannot be found anywhere else but in mind

Is 'mind' an actual entity or 'place' that contains thoughts and experiences? Look.What's actually there in DE? Beware coming back too quickly with the 'right' answer.

"Is there an 'I' other than belief in one?"......No, just belief of mind.

What is this 'mind'? Report back from DE.

x H

[Sraddhadharani]

Hi Hare,
Blessings of the Winter Solstice to you.
Sorry, won't manage a 'proper' post today, too much happening. Look forward to being back tomorrow, all being well,

S'dh X

[Hare]

Morning!

I've simplified the previous post a bit, so please read / respond to this one rather than the above.

"Is there love within 'me' or simply love?".......Love......'within' and 'me' just idea/belief/story.

"Is there any stuckness when story is not identified or believed in?".....No, just flow of experience.

:-) Nice.

See how there is nothing to be lost in seeing through the illusion of self. (I'm wondering if there is fear about losing the self? The fact is, you can't lose something that never existed in the first place!) Everything continues to flow on: feelings, thoughts, experiences. All that is lost is stuckness: the habit of perceiving the flow of life as consisting of fixed 'things', with a fixed 'me' (or a fixed 'mind'?) having the experiences.

Yes, assumption/sense [of self] cannot be found anywhere else but in mind

Is 'mind' an actual entity or 'place' that contains thoughts and experiences? Or is there simply a flow of thoughts and experiences?


Look.What's there in actual, immediate experience? Don't back too quickly with the 'right' answer. I'm only interested in direct observation.

If you find yourself you using the words 'but' 'just' or 'still', have a look: is this thought / conceptualisation overriding the findings of actual, direct experience?

x H

[Sraddhadharani]

Hi Hare,

"I'm wondering if there is fear about losing the self"......Would like to respond to this, excuse language, just letting words flow.....am aware of agitation, tension, tightness, 'holding' in body as am moving through this inquiry-when responding to your posts and more generally throughout the day when bringing it all specifically to mind. Resistance to really letting go, mentally and physically, into the truth that is experienced both thro map and territory. This is uncomfortable and frustrating, tho brings forth sense of need to be patient and tender and to trust that this is all part of it-a need to acknowledge experience whilst still staying fully connected to commitment to this process, however it is in DE. Reminded of story of monkey who was captured because it put its hand into jar full of nuts and could not escape because wouldn't unclench fist to let go of nuts, so couldn't get hand out of jar to get free......bless that silly monkey.....

"Is mind an actual entity or place that contains thoughts and experiences?"......I don't really know what mind is...... There are what I call thoughts, there is what I call experience. I'm used to using these labels-when I look I don't REALLY know what they are and they change all the time.....There are no edges or boundaries to what I call 'mind', no 'place' to be found, no 'thing' to be found.....

S'dh X.

[Hare]

Sraddhadharini!

Resistance to really letting go, mentally and physically

Where does the idea come from that you are supposed to be 'letting go'? (Says who?!)
Whatever's happening is what's happening: ...tightness...agitation...letting go...frustration...whatever. No problem. We're not trying to have any particular kind of experience here: this is barking up the wrong tree. It's an idea, a view. I'm asking you to genuinely look at whatever is happening, directly. Not through the lens of any idea about what should be happening.

That's all. it's very simple.

the truth that is experienced both thro map and territory

Tell me about the truth that can be 'experienced..through map'? Have a good look at this. Come back to it at different times if necessary.

trust that this is all part of it

Yes! :-)

.I don't really know what mind is...... There are what I call thoughts, there is what I call experience. I'm used to using these labels-when I look I don't REALLY know what they are and they change all the time.....There are no edges or boundaries to what I call 'mind', no 'place' to be found, no 'thing' to be found.....

Sraddhadharini, WHO IS THIS 'I' - the one with the starring role in the above narrative? The one who apparently has some kind of (abstract?) existence, separate from what is actually being experienced?

What / where / who is this 'I'? Can it be sensed directly? Yes? Or no?

Or is it only an idea / view / belief, added on to WHAT IS by thought?

Don't explain, describe or theorise! No need for wordy answers. (The answers aren't important. Just look and the answers will take care of themselves).

H

[Sraddhadharani]

Hi Hare,

"Where does the idea come from that you are supposed to be letting go?"...... Just thoughts/narrative in response to your question about fear.............

"Whatever is happening is what's happening.......no problem".......Thankyou for reminder.

"Tell me about the truth that can be experienced through map......have a good look".......No truth actually directly experienced thro or 'in' map, map situated in thought/memory.

"Who is this 'I'?".......No who, just a facility of language.

"What/where/who is this 'I'?".......................................................................................................................

"Can it be sensed directly?"...............................................................................................No.

"Is it only an idea/view/belief added onto 'what is' by thought?".........................................................Yes.

S'dh x

[Hare]

Hi, all good.

List a few things about yourself that would give a basic description (female / X years old / nationality / + add a few more.)

Sit quietly with eyes closed. Is there any actual evidence, right here in the present, that you are female? Or is that an idea added by thought?

In similar vein, go through the list.

Now go through the list again. Stay present; stay with actual experience. Keep it spacious, don't rush. Be curious. With each of these descriptions / definitions of 'you', drop in the question 'is this true?' Wait for a response..or no response. (eg: "I am female" ... is this true? ...what is the response? )

Are 'you' defined by any of these things?

Is there a 'you'? Like before; directly looking for femaleness; age; etc.. just look, right now.

x H

[Sraddhadharani]

Hello Hare, just to let you know, went thro and responded to questions in order you posted, but somehow got mixed up in the typing and don't know how to sort it out-slight techno overload happening!

"List a few things about yourself that would give a basic description"........Female. 50 years old. Living in Scotland. Buddhist. Post-graduate. In a relationship. Self-employed. 5'7" tall. Short hair. Medium build. Hazel eyes.

"Sit with eyes closed. Is there any evidence, right here in the present, that you are female?"...........When I read this question last night felt absolutely delighted to be asked it and laughed my head off for ages, dunno why........Now, right here in the present, sitting with eyes closed........hearing happening, taste and smell sensations being experienced, felt/physical sensations.....nothing that can be identified as 'female', just experience happening plus thought/idea of female.......50 years old......a thought plus experience happening. British/Italian......this thought/idea in mind, is just in mind, has no effect on direct experience, what is happening now-sense experience, experience of aliveness.......Living in Scotland......more of same-this thought/idea and experience of sitting here, sensations in body inc temperature, sounds happening, visual experience, typing happening, taste sensations......Strong sensations in solar plexus......Buddhist......Post-graduate.....in a relationship.....self employed-all words in mind......sounds being heard, visual experience happening, sitting quietly happening, drinking tea happening, just this. 5'7" tall, short hair, medium build, hazel eyes......visual experience of words on screen, slight ache in chest area happening, tightness in solar plexus, sensations in whole body esp in area of contact with chair. Sighing happening. Hearing happening. More sighing. No evidence of anything except that sense experience is happening, aliveness is happening, thoughts/ideas are happening.

"Are 'you' defined by any of these things?"................................No. All just words/ideas/thoughts.

"Is there a 'you'?"...........Just this sitting here, these sensations/experiences happening.............this being happening......'Me/not me' just words in mind.......still this sitting here, this typing happening, these sounds being heard, these things being seen...........getting up to let the dog out happening.......sitting back down. This is what there is........


"Go through list again.....drop in the question 'is this true?'".........I am female.....is this true?.....sense experience happening, words 'I am female is this true?' in mind............sensation of tension behind eyes happening........deep breaths happening.......just experience happening. No thoughts happening.........I am 50 years old, is this true?.....Very strong sensations in solar plexus/belly area.................................Memory of saying thumb while looking at thumb. Words/thoughts just words and thoughts plus sounds being heard, visual/physical experience happening. Getting up to go to kitchen happening.......sitting down happening.......I live in Scotland, is this true?......no words coming......I am Buddhist, is this true?.........feeling of tiredness/sensations of aching in head happening. Not wanting to think about any more words.......just sitting, breathing happening, strong heartbeat being felt, hearing happening..........

S'dh X

[Hare]

Hi!

laughed my head off for ages, dunno why

It's ironic: in anticipation (as in, in imagined thoughts of the future), fear arises. But when you see through self-view, it's just funny! Daft. ;-)

sense experience is happening, aliveness is happening

Is sense experience 'you'? Is aliveness 'self'?

Is there anything at all in actual direct experience that corresponds to any of the following words? Or do they exist only as an idea or thought, added onto experience? Similarly to how you approached it yesterday, just look at what's there in experience right now; keep it spacious; stay present.

'I' / 'me' / Sraddhadharini / Bernadette / the self.

Now let's look at whether thought is reality.

We established a while ago that a thought of a glass of water isn't a real glass of water - you can't drink it. Likewise the thought of a water melon - you can't eat it, so it can't be real.

Can you find any thought whatsoever that is real? That has actual existence in the real world, in the way that a real glass of water you can drink does - or a water melon you can actually eat? Try! Let me know what you come up with.

(Just skipping back a post with this one):

""Who is this 'I'?"......Is it only an idea/view/belief added onto 'what is' by thought?"..............Yes.
"Can it be sensed directly?"....................No.

If 'I' is only thought and cannot be sensed directly, does it have ANY actual reality?

Happy Christmas! :-) x H