looking for some help

[yuvi]

Yes, that’s exactly what I’m expecting and how I see it.

Are you ready for questioning your beliefs about liberation?
Are you ready for the possibility that your beliefs about seeing through the self might be wrong?
Are you ready to give up ALL expectations?

First one is that there will be some experience where I will see that there’s no self. You said yourself that such experience happens. It doesn’t have to be groundbreaking it can be really subtle but there is one and that’s what I’m expecting.

For some there is a noticeable shift in perception, and for many others the shift is so subtle and often gradual that it is hardly noticeable if noticeable at all. Furthermore seeing through the self is not a one-time event.
For example my mentor wrote: "to me it happened is several small steps and I don't even know when it occurred exactly. I simply missed it because I had so much expectation. I simply missed it while I was compering the current experiencing/seeing with the concepts of expectation."

Every expectation is in the way of seeing what is here, right now. Every single expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations are about the future. But liberation cannot be found in the future.

An expectation is nothing more than a mental concept. In order to compare it with the current experience, the current experience needs to be conceptualized. As a result, there ‘are’ two mentally fabricated constructs that can be matched up, with a ‘result’ of putting a label of either “this is liberation” or “this is not” onto the experience.

It is that simple. Utterly simple.

And the second expectation is that after this happens I’ll see thoughts as just thoughts. I won’t automatically give them so much importance and believe in them. There will be greater distance to thoughts with the ability to question them as they arise.

This is a HUGE and completely UNREALISTIC expectation!

So there is an expectation (belief) that after seeing through the illusion of the self the illusion SHOULD STOP APPEARING with no more identification with the I-thought and stories?

The illusion won’t stop, it will continue to appear, but it is seen only as an illusion, not as a ‘reality’.

Let’s say you are in a desert and there is a mirage in the distance.

Does the mirage go away just because it is seen as a mirage and not believed to be an oasis?
Or the illusion of the mirage still appears, and the only difference that it is not believed to be ‘real’?
When the mirage is seen only as an illusion, does it matter whether it is there or not?

Identification with the I-thought and stories is the result of X years of conditionings. X years of conditioning won’t go away in an instance, but without a centre, a ‘me’, there is nothing they could attach to or stick to, so they GRADUALLY fall away. This falling can last until the end of the organism. So expecting that seeing through the illusion of the self is the end is quite unrealistic.

Identification with the I-thought and self-referencing thoughts and stories still arise as a content of thoughts. However, upon investigation (or sometimes without any investigation) it can be seen that they are only thoughts and nothing more, nothing ‘real’.

I know that my expectations are thoughts/ideas about how liberation works, I see that. I see that I’m clinging to an idea that “there will be a no self experience” but on every blog related to no-self etc. people say that there is an experience of no-self so how could I not wait for it.

Yes, this is nothing more than a clinging to an IDEA. It doesn't matter what others write or say. What others say doesn't matter because they use language to express the unexpressable. What matters is what is here, right now.

Furthermore, whatever you read it had become a part of a belief about how it should be. But that belief is nothing more than the content of an arising thought here and now. Nothing more, nothing serious. Just thoughts.

You said that there’s an experience of no self. Every guide says that. If this experience happens then the searching will stop. I know that what I just wrote is an idea. I believe that that’s how it works.

Not every guide says this, this is just a wrong use of language. Searching might or might not stop. Because searching is the result of X years of conditioning, so it may not go away in an instant, but it can GRADUALLY fall away.

Actually saying that no self can be experienced is false. Falling away of nothing ('me') cannot be experienced. You know why? Because there has NEVER been a self in the first place! So NOTHING changes. Nothing. So it cannot be experienced because the self has never existed so it cannot disappear. The only difference that it is seen that it is just an illusion, nothing more than a thought.

Seeing through the illusion for some result in a some kind of lightness that can last from a few mins to a few days or weeks as a honeymoon period. But it goes away. Because lightness is just a STATE.
For others there isn't a noticeable state. So believing that a state has to happen is totally unrealistic.

Seeing no self has nothing to do with any state. Seeing no self is simply to see that the 'me' is just a thought.

"I see that there is no self however it's not obvious to me. If there's a thought, I can say "there's a thought" and I'm sure of it. I see that there is no self and I can't say "there is no self", because I'm not sure of it somehow."

"I can't say there is no self" - of course! We cannot say that there is no self, because in order to be able to say it we have to see the self first, in order to be able to negate it.

So we can only say that a self cannot be found, except as a thought.

So, is there an 'I' right here, right now in this moment other then a thought?

[Mateo_x]

Hey, I'll reply tomorrow

[Mateo_x]

sorry can't make it today. tomorrow i'll reply for sure

[yuvi]

No problem :)

[Mateo_x]

Are you ready for questioning your beliefs about liberation?
Are you ready for the possibility that your beliefs about seeing through the self might be wrong?
Are you ready to give up ALL expectations?

It’s hard to not cling to these beliefs about liberation, especially because of the previous experience that I had, but I’m open to putting these beliefs aside.

For some there is a noticeable shift in perception, and for many others the shift is so subtle and often gradual that it is hardly noticeable if noticeable at all. Furthermore seeing through the self is not a one-time event.
For example my mentor wrote: "to me it happened is several small steps and I don't even know when it occurred exactly. I simply missed it because I had so much expectation. I simply missed it while I was compering the current experiencing/seeing with the concepts of expectation."

Every expectation is in the way of seeing what is here, right now. Every single expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations are about the future. But liberation cannot be found in the future.

An expectation is nothing more than a mental concept. In order to compare it with the current experience, the current experience needs to be conceptualized. As a result, there ‘are’ two mentally fabricated constructs that can be matched up, with a ‘result’ of putting a label of either “this is liberation” or “this is not” onto the experience.

Alright, I get this.

This is a HUGE and completely UNREALISTIC expectation!

Comparing to ‘eternal joy and peace’ I didn’t think it’s so much to ask for :)

The illusion won’t stop, it will continue to appear, but it is seen only as an illusion, not as a ‘reality’.

Let’s say you are in a desert and there is a mirage in the distance.

Does the mirage go away just because it is seen as a mirage and not believed to be an oasis?
Or the illusion of the mirage still appears, and the only difference that it is not believed to be ‘real’?
When the mirage is seen only as an illusion, does it matter whether it is there or not?

I get it now. This analogy was very helpful. Same thing for example with optical illusions. The fact that I know it’s an illusion doesn’t mean it will disappear. It will still be seen but it will be known as illusion.

Identification with the I-thought and stories is the result of X years of conditionings. X years of conditioning won’t go away in an instance, but without a centre, a ‘me’, there is nothing they could attach to or stick to, so they GRADUALLY fall away. This falling can last until the end of the organism. So expecting that seeing through the illusion of the self is the end is quite unrealistic.

Ok I get that. Comparing it to a car, it’s like the gas pedal is not pressed but the car still goes forward because of the momentum.

Furthermore, whatever you read it had become a part of a belief about how it should be. But that belief is nothing more than the content of an arising thought here and now. Nothing more, nothing serious. Just thoughts.

I understand this.
Everything that I read adds up to my beliefs about how liberation should look like, but these are just thoughts/ideas/stories.

Seeing through the illusion for some result in a some kind of lightness that can last from a few mins to a few days or weeks as a honeymoon period. But it goes away. Because lightness is just a STATE.
For others there isn't a noticeable state. So believing that a state has to happen is totally unrealistic.

I’ll try to put my beliefs aside and not insist that I know how this should look like.

"I can't say there is no self"
So we can only say that a self cannot be found, except as a thought.

This makes a difference. I don’t feel well with saying “there is no self” because all I can say with honesty is that I can’t see it.

So, is there an 'I' right here, right now in this moment other then a thought?

There’s only ‘I’ as a mental concept. I see that ‘I’ appears only as a thought, as an assumption that ‘I’ is that which causes every action/thought. It can’t be found in reality as something other than a thought. I’m sitting in my room right now, in front of the computer, there are sights, sounds, feelings, thoughts etc. and ‘I’ is found only as a thought. While I’m writing now, honestly it can be only said that fingers are moving and writing happens but there’s an assumption that ‘I’ does the writing. It feels more true to say “there’s writing” than “I’m writing”. This requires tons of concentration and putting aside all beliefs and focusing only on what is here. While trying to understand it logically there’s a lot of tension like “IT DOESN’T MAKE SENSE” but without trying to make sense of it, it somehow feels natural to say “there’s writing”.

[yuvi]

I’ll try to put my beliefs aside

The moment you “try” to put your beliefs aside, there is an effort to move to another state. You don’t have to do anything with these beliefs and expectations. Don’t try to push them away, change them, manipulate them. Don’t do anything with them, don’t touch them, just observe them. These are nothing more than the “content” of arising thoughts, HERE and NOW. That’s all; nothing more, nothing serious, nothing ‘real’.

It feels more true to say “there’s writing” than “I’m writing”.

Yes. But don’t cling to this moment as well, as the very effort to re-experience anything (anything for that matter) is ‘thinking’ without knowing you are thinking.

As a next step, there are further six questions to ask as part of this guiding process. The response is then shared with other guides. They may or may not have further questions.

Once it is confirmed by other guides that seeing through the illusion of the self has happened, our conversation in this thread will come to an end, however you won’t be left alone. There is a whole community of others on FB (exclusive LU community), who have also seen through the ‘self’. Further inquiries and discussions happen there.

Are you ready for the six questions?

[Mateo_x]

The moment you “try” to put your beliefs aside, there is an effort to move to another state. You don’t have to do anything with these beliefs and expectations. Don’t try to push them away, change them, manipulate them. Don’t do anything with them, don’t touch them, just observe them. These are nothing more than the “content” of arising thoughts, HERE and NOW. That’s all; nothing more, nothing serious, nothing ‘real’.

Yes, I understand that. Just observing the thoughts and not taking them as truth.

There is a whole community of others on FB (exclusive LU community), who have also seen through the ‘self’. Further inquiries and discussions happen there.

That's good to know.

Are you ready for the six questions?

Yes.

cheers

[yuvi]

Ok, Mat. Here are the questions. Take your time and answer as clearly as possible with details. Don’t forget to add everyday examples from your experience for question 5.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[Mateo_x]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

It’s an idea only. It’s a concept. It’s assumed that ‘I’ is the cause of all actions, thoughts etc. While looking honestly self can’t be seen as something other than a thought. There’s no thing in reality that I can point to and say “that’s self”.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

There’s an illusion that there is some thing that makes all decisions, is responsible for all actions of the body and all thoughts and decisions. While looking honestly (that means fresh looking, with beliefs put aside) it’s obvious that no such thing exists. It’s only an idea.

For example right now there’s writing. Fingers are moving on the keyboard. That’s what is experienced. There’s an underlying assumption that “I” am doing the typing. However, it’s only an assumption. It’s not backed up in reality. Sometimes it’s clearly seen and sometimes not. About two weeks ago there was a moment when I moved my hand (the hand moved, it’s hard to describe it correctly with language) and right after that there was a thought “I moved my hand”. It was very clearly seen that the thought appeared after the action and no link between moving hand and some ‘I’ could be seen.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Some things were clarified. There were some expectations about how all this looks like. These expectations are just thoughts. Everything goes on as usual. There are all the thoughts and emotions that were here before. It’s hard to answer the ‘how does it feel’ question because it’s not a feeling. The closest label I could give it is “knowing” however even that doesn’t sound true. The obviousness of every experience is seen. I’m no longer expecting changes. All the expectations are just thoughts anyway. It’s seeing things as they are. I can’t label this because every label is a lie.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I certainly didn’t feel being pushed over. I think there was only clarification needed. The thing that stood out the most from this dialog is the fact that I can’t say that there is no self. I can say that self can’t be found. I was having problems with saying “there is no self” because I didn’t feel sure. Saying “self can’t be found” makes much more sense.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Millions of decisions happen every moment however there’s no one who’s responsible for them. They just happen. Free will/choice/control these are only ideas. Control is only an illusion. It feels like there’s control over decisions but the fact that it feels like this doesn’t make it true. Direct experience shows that there’s completely no control and everything happens on its own. I could give countless examples. Everything is an example. Movement just happens, thoughts just appear. There’s no responsibility for anything because there’s no one who can be responsible. There’s no thing that’s outside of life and makes decisions, all is life and living happens. “My” organism is just a part of life, expressing life. The self illusion is a part of life as well. It’s life experiencing itself.

6) Anything to add?

Not really I think everything was already said.

cheers

[yuvi]

Ok, Mat. Thanks for your replies. I am posting this for other guides to look and ask further questions, if necessary. This may take a while. I will write to you when I hear from other guides. :)

[Mateo_x]

Ok thanks :)

[yuvi]

Hi Mat.. One of my fellow guides have the below question for you. I'd like you to examine this question honestly and answer what comes up:

It’s an idea only. It’s a concept.

"there is no self” because I didn’t feel sure. Saying “self can’t be found” makes much more sense.

"Before you also said I/self as just a concept. Then you say 'self can't be found'. These two statements appear to not work well with each other. Could you say any more about that?"

[Mateo_x]

Sorry about that, I haven't been clear enough. What I wanted to say is that self can't be found in reality. All that can be found are thoughts saying that there is something that is responsible for all actions/thoughts etc.

[yuvi]

thank you, Mat. The guides are satisfied with your responses. I will PM you on further processes. I really appreciate your willingness to look and i hope it paid off.

[Mateo_x]

Thank you for taking the time. There was a lot of frustration during this process ;) I'll PM you in a moment.

Thanks again!