Tired of the person

[Nati]

It seems to be time for me now. I think more than one year has passed since I registered here. I have felt quite desperate the last weeks but feel better now that I feel that I have a chance to see what you see. Or to see the illusion of self. I know that I do not want to live as this person any longer. I am tired of the search. 2012 I have had glimpses of truth. I laughed and laughed as I saw through the story that I had told myself about my life. I experienced a completely fearless state of mind. Not even dementia could scare me. But this was covered up again. I do not know how that could happen. Anyway, all other ambition was gone. I just read the interview with Lisa and it set me on fire. I am writing this now and not in the near future as I had planned. It seems it just started something. I would appreciate if anyone replies, maybe even you. Lisa?

[vinceschubert]

Hi Nati, vince here..
Lisa has a 'full plate' at the moment. (but i'll see if i can get her to say hello...)
If you're happy to 'work' with me, then you know the drill ?

But this was covered up again.

Start by telling what you noticed happening as "this", evaporated.

vince

[Nati]

Hi Vince,

thanks for answering so quickly. I am happy to work with you, it feels right. I live in Germany and so my English might be not perfect. However I feel comfortable doing it in English. Much of my seeking story was in English, so to speak.

(I tried to use the quote function to repeat your question here, but it copied all of your text.)

I had practised Buddhism for about 15 years. Never quite happy with the organisation aspect of it.

Never searched for a guru but met one in a dream of a very special quality. Shortly after that it was Mooji that I met on the internet. He also does direct pointing to that which is unchangeable. I was on fire immediately, I just understood and felt the truth of his words. At that time I knew nothing of non-duality and all that. I took the first opportunity to meet him and went to a silent retreat in the Ukraine. (Normally I am quite anxious of travelling, but not this time. I just did it.) Most of the retreat was wonderful and easy for me and but I also had some pain.) After the retreat I was sure I had "got" it. I felt free for the first time in my life. I was not anxious around people anymore. I felt no fear of death or illness. I could see that I had identified with my life story and that I had clung to my psychological problems. But I had let go by then. But slowly with my life here, especially connected with work, my old me crept back in.
I went to another silent retreat with Mooji this May, but I could not take it all in as before.
I still sometimes do my Buddhist practise but with no conviction. It has lost all importance.

Luckily I could change my work situation so that I am under no strain in this respect now. But I am off to work now and wil be back in 7 hours.) So excited about all this.

[vinceschubert]

(I tried to use the quote function to repeat your question here, but it copied all of your text.)

First you need to hit the "Reply" button. Then highlight the text that you want to quote, then hit the "Quote" button and it will insert it in the Reply box, ready for you to start typing.

But slowly with my life here, especially connected with work, my old me crept back in.

Ok, i get what you are saying, but that is not what i'm asking. (a gentle slap with the zen stick)
Let me be even more specific..
When i ask a question, i want two things; an answer to the question, and what you notice is happening (experiencing) as you consider the question.
A good idea is to read my post fairly quickly, then go and do something else, before coming back to reply.
When replying, it is a good idea to not edit. (other than spelling and grammar) Just let the words flow. Just watch it happen.

Start by telling what you noticed happening as "this", evaporated.

What were you noticing that led you to the conclusion that the "old you" was creeping back in ?
Describe the "you" that was "creeping back in" ?

vince

[Nati]

Thanks for your posting, Vince. I was surprised and slightly annoyed wih myself when I realized that I had not answered your question but an imagined one.
I took your advice and went for a short walk but however I was formulating this answer in my thoughts while walking.

Start by telling what you noticed happening as "this", evaporated.

I have no special feelings when I consider the question. Kind of neutral.
My memory is not so good and this happened in autum 2012.
What I remember is that it started at work. I felt uncomfortable spending so many hours at my workplace. I longed to be outside in the fresh air. I felt confined. I had the wish to quit my job and go travelling but I could not find the courage to do it. I thought that I might regret that and would not be able to get another job. So I stayed on. Then I started comparing myself to others who give everything for their spiritual search. I thought that I should be able to do that, too. Or I would never get "there".
Then the comparing expanded to wellknown areas: first my body and then lack of professional achievement. Feeling jealous. Feeling miserable because of feeling jealous. Regrets about not being able to...have a relationship, be at peace with my life, invite others for meals, buy a flat... the list is endless.
Realizing that this list is endless makes me feel miserable right now. Miserable not about those things i cannot do but about my concentrating on them.

I hope I have answered your question this time.
Renate

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Renate,

I felt uncomfortable spending so many hours at my workplace. I longed to be outside in the fresh air. I felt confined. I had the wish to quit my job and go travelling but I could not find the courage to do it. I thought that I might regret that and would not be able to get another job. So I stayed on.

Yes, it's obvious (to me and you) what was happening here. You were telling stories, and believing them.
So LOOK closely at this process. The believing.
What is the difference between a thought that is believed and one that isn't ? (for example; "there is a bird outside" & "there is a unicorn outside.")

After the retreat I was sure I had "got" it. I felt free for the first time in my life. I was not anxious around people anymore. I felt no fear of death or illness. I could see that I had identified with my life story and that I had clung to my psychological problems. But I had let go by then.

So, brand new experiencing, right ? Following how many years of conditioned responding ?
Does this mean that you have a story (a very common one) that there is an instant happening and a permanent bliss state following ?
Here (at Liberation Unleashed) we have Facebook groups for 'aftercare'. To keep focus while old conditioning is being dropped and new 'ways of being' are established. It is crucial to understand that seeing through the illusion (of a separate self) is a beginning. (there is no finish - my story)
One more question for today; Having seen that you had identified with a story,(once seen it can't be unseen) would certainly break the identification, so how can you be both identified and not identified at the same time ?

love

vince

[Nati]

Good afternoon Vince,

thank you for answering so quickly. There is a point of confusion here:

You were telling stories, and believing them.

Ok, I was telling stories and believing them. But a story can be true or false, can't it? It could be true that I would regret to have given up my job after a while. One tries only to believe what is true. So I believe that some people are friendly because of my experience of some friendly people.

What is the difference between a thought that is believed and one that isn't ?

Thought that is believed leaves a trace, it is somehow sticky and has consequences. If I believed the thought: This pain in my stomach means that probably I have cancer I would worry and go to the doctor. If I don't believe it it has no consequence and disappears with the pain. It is irrelevant. But who is the believer? Is it conditioning and habit that decides what I believe and what not? It seems that I am kind of checking in with a thought and trying to find out if it can be believed or not.

So, brand new experiencing, right ? Following how many years of conditioned responding ?

Yes the clarity, depth and the length of the experience were new to me. (After 53 years of conditioned responding.) And new was the conviction that what was once seen cannot be unseen. But...

One more question for today; Having seen that you had identified with a story,(once seen it can't be unseen) would certainly break the identification, so how can you be both identified and not identified at the same time ?

I have no idea. It seems the statement Once seen it can't be unseen is not true. What is left is the memory of a seeing. But the feeling that went with it is lost. (However when I look at your icon it is true. There are the faces, there is the vase.) So I am identified with my story and part of the story is the memory of not being identified.

Does this mean that you have a story (a very common one) that there is an instant happening and a permanent bliss state following ?

Well, I would be content with simple peace of mind and the occasional blissful moment. :) I want to end my seeking. I am tired of it. I want to accept myself as I am. And I believe stories that tell me this is possible. Still- I read the butterfly story on your blog and liked what was said there. But what is the point of our exchange if it has not a definite result? You say it is a beginning. But then maybe the other experience was a beginning? The more I think about it the more confusion takes over. There is also anger. As if I want to argue against you and defend myself. I better stop here and say good night.

Yours, Renate

[Nati]

Dear Vince,
it is early morning here and very cold.
I just read Lisa's interview again and this time the full length. Strange, I wouldn't have asked for her guidance if I had read it to the end the first time. And maybe you would not have offered to be my guide. I realized only just now that you were the one who guided her. Of course now there is suddenly much more trust and a deep gratitude. I feel so honoured and touched by all this and I am crying all the time while writing this.
What she says makes so much sense to me. I think I don't cling to the illusion of a sudden ending of pain. She describes the process afterwards so beautifully. There obviously is no seeking any more.
I know this process has probably not a lot to do with relating to one's guide but I can't help it now. Please tell me if it is ok to write about these feelings as I do now or if i should better keep the emotional part to myself.
Much love and gratitude
Renate

[vinceschubert]

a story can be true or false, can't it?

Well, no. A story can only be ABOUT something that turns out to be accurate or not. (or partially)
Can a story ever be more than ABOUT something ? Is it possible that it can ever be more than conceptual ?

One tries only to believe what is true.

Hmm, i know what you are saying, but let's examine this a bit closer. What is "true" ?
Tell me one thing that is true ? ..anything.

It seems that I am kind of checking in with a thought and trying to find out if it can be believed or not.

Usefulness is a more appropriate criteria.

It seems the statement Once seen it can't be unseen is not true.

Having seen "that I had identified with my life story", did a time ever happen after that where you could not see that again, every time that you looked ?
Now, there's no denying that the old conditioning re-asserted itself. Habit reigned..

I want to end my seeking. I am tired of it. I want to accept myself as I am.

So, if you accept yourself as you are, then you will accept your seeking, and that you are tired of seeking.

But what is the point of our exchange if it has not a definite result?

Is a story about a "point" useful here ?
Is a story about a specific outcome going to be useful ?

But then maybe the other experience was a beginning?

i do know what you mean, but again, let's examine this. We are looking to deliniate useful stories from other types.
Beginning, middle, end. Before, now, after. These are useful concepts for communicating certain things, but are they useful when it comes to describing what is real ?
Ok, while we are here, what is real ? How do you know if something is real ?

Please tell me if it is ok to write about these feelings as I do now

Yes yes.

love

vince

[Nati]

There is relief that it is ok to share my emotions. That this stuff is not excluded from the dialogue. I feel a strong dedication to letting you guide me. From time to time doubtful or scornful thoughts appear that I don't take on for long. Some resistances to pondering your questions but the willingness to do it anyway is greater. Well, it feels more like work and not so much like fun. Which is completely ok with me.

Can a story ever be more than ABOUT something ? Is it possible that it can ever be more than conceptual ?

I think I understand what you mean. So am I right in saying that a story is just a story whereas a statement can be true or false? Or is there no such thing as true or false. But I know that the statement "I am blind" must be false, because I am reading these words.

What is "true" ?
Tell me one thing that is true ? ..anything.

"I am answering your question." That is true. Or "I am here." And "This body will be dead one day."
Are those not true statements?

Having seen "that I had identified with my life story", did a time ever happen after that where you could not see that again, every time that you looked ?

Ok. I saw it every time I looked. But when I first saw it, I looked from somewhere, where I was not identified in that moment. Identification was seen as a story that was no longer necessary. And I still know that it is not necessary. But I identify anyway.
But actually, not right now in this moment. Right now I don't believe in this story. It is not very convincing. Funny. Why should I believe this crap?

Is a story about a "point" useful here ?
Is a story about a specific outcome going to be useful ?

I guess I wanted to provoke you? No point at all. It doesn't matter. Just doing it, being involved in it.
Yes there are thoughts and wishes about an outcome. They are not useful. But as long as they don't get in the way, they don't seem to matter. They are just floating around in the background. Not important right now.

Ok, while we are here, what is real ? How do you know if something is real ?

I haven't got a clue. But I have a kind of working mode. I usually take for real what my senses report to me. But still they might not work probably. I might be hallucinating. But I am sure that I am not hallucinating now. Why am I so sure? Because this state feels like my normal waking state. But it is more like assuming that things are real because it seems to work that way. I press these keys and words appear on the screen. It just works. In the dreamstate something completely different might appear on the screen. (But that could happen also if I had a virus on my computer. Still I would not assume I was dreaming.) You see, I haven't got a clue about what is real and it still seems to work.

Now that was hard work and a lot of fun.

love

Renate

[Nati]

Dear Vince,

as I will leave the house soon I want to write to you now, even though you have not asked any questions yet.
This morning I caught myself creating a story that made me feel bad. I woke up after only a few hours of sleep by ongoing noises from my neighbours. (at eight a clock, my usual getting up time) And two thoughts ocurred:
First I thought that liberation doesn't help a bit when the neighbours are noisy.
And then I constructed a drama story of having a bad day because my lack of sleep and not having enough energy to go to the dancing event tonight. It was quite subtle and I nearly missed it.
Actually my day was quite ok, and yes, I am a bit tired but still going to the dancing. No big deal.
Still thinking a lot about liberation and what it could mean for me.

love

Renate

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Renate.

I want to write to you now, even though you have not asked any questions yet.

This is good. Feel free to write as much as you like.

This morning I caught myself creating a story that made me feel bad.

Excellent. ..and did you notice that with being aware of the story creation, that you didn't get 'sucked in', so much ? That there wasn't an automatic 'living out' of the storyline ?
Did the question arise, "Is this story useful ?" ?
Given the nature of conditioning, habit, it is reasonable to assume that there is a process that occurs in the brain where old neuronal pathways atrophy from lack of use or better still, from thwarting the satisfaction that would happen as a result of them being completed. ..and of course, a process of new pathways being established.
Here's what can happen to hasten the brain re-wiring. Whenever you Realize that an emotion has 'carried you away', celebrate the Recognition with a laugh.
The Recognition that you were 'lost' in the content of a thought stream, will come with an "Aha !"
This Recognition may happen some time after the event. "Oh, I was angry/sad/happy/elated/depressed/etc, because I was believing thought ABOUT suchandsuch." ...or it might come during the 'event', ..or even before it. "WoW !, I was about to get sucked into that story. Hahahaa."
Whenever it happens, laugh. Laugh out loud. A great big guffaw if you are alone (or aren't embarrassed by the presence others) If that isn't appropriate a chuckle or even a silent smile with eyes only, is fine. Whatever you do, just make sure that your stomach contracts. This has the effect of releasing Oxytocin (a happiness, hormone) which has the effect of neutralizing any stress hormones that would have been released by negative emotions. If you Recognize that you were feeling elated because of story, then still laugh, realizing that story was involved.
..also have a look at this video; https://www.dropbox.com/s/mskv8uxmnmf2f ... _Being.mp4

Still thinking a lot about liberation and what it could mean for me.

Yes, let's burn this up !

From time to time doubtful or scornful thoughts appear that I don't take on for long.

Yes, the variety of thoughts that show up is endless. Obviously the nature of them is influenced by the conditions that have historically arisen for the host brain. Do you know where thoughts come from ? Can you control which ones arrive ?

Some resistances to pondering your questions

This is both interesting and useful. A technique that is productive, is to ask "what is this resistance about ?" and then to notice the first train of thought that arises.
What are those thoughts ?

a story is just a story whereas a statement can be true or false?

Is not a statement just a short story ?

Or is there no such thing as true or false.

Great question. Are these actual things ? ..or are they characteristics that are 'valued' by current cult(ural) norms and applied to situations and things ?

But I know that the statement "I am blind" must be false, because I am reading these words.

This is a little tricky. The statement itself has no intrinsic value of truth or falseness. What it is ABOUT is what we are interested in. Language is where a lot of our illusion is generated.
When we talk about the statement, we are really talking about the subject of the statement. It is just our modern, shorthand way that makes it seem that we are talking about the statement itself. (when we say "the statement is true or false.") Of course the statement itself is misleading if we were to take it literally. What is really meant is that "this organism has no visual capacity".

Are those not true statements?

They are statement ABOUT things that may or may not turn out to be accurate, or have degrees of accuracy.
Is it possible for a word (or group of words) to have intrinsic value ?

love

vince

[Nati]

Good afternoon Vince,

I read your post before going to bed last night, watched the video, but was too tired to reply.

Yesterday during the trance dance session I left the room even though we were not supposed to do that. But it just was not agreeing with me. My body didn't respond to the music. And it was too loud for my sensitive ears. So I just went home and was content that I had put my well being first. No bad feelings about that.

Yes, re-wiring the brain is a good idea. I will support this by things that are unusual, like using my left hand, writing and reading the other way round and more stuff like that. I once did a training where we were practicing a lot this way and it had a tremendous effect.

Did the question arise, "Is this story useful ?" ?

No, I just noticed what is happening. But I will keep this in mind. So - if I find the story useful I cherish it and if not I laugh it away?

Do you know where thoughts come from ? Can you control which ones arrive ?

Thoughts just seem to arise out of nowhere. I can't control them but I can choose if I take them on or not, at least to a certain extent. When I am not well, the thought "Ich habe Angst" (I am scared) often arises and is repeated like a mantra. But there is no feeling of fear connected with it, just an uneasiness. It only happens when I am out somewhere in public, not at home. To deal with this thought I have established a habit: I add "und ich gehe weiter" (and I carry on) to this thought. That feels much better. I am not the victim of this thought any more.

Concerning resistance: The looking at thought processes and stories coming with them seems like a huge effort. It is so unfamiliar. And with it comes a feeling of smallness and fussyness. No grandeur at all. Haha. I Don't want to do my homework. I want to get out playing.

On another level there are thoughts like I don't know if this is right for me. It seems so dry. There are no emotions involved. There is no God that takes care of me in this. I am an emotional person. Thinking cannot be the way to liberation. I cannot carry on with this for months.What happens if I don't want to carry on. I will feel guilty then.
Writing out these thoughts is helpful.

Another thought: Should I ask Vince if it is ok to watch Satsang with Mooji? I better not ask him because he might just have forgotten to tell me that I should not watch or read anything to do with spirituality. I know some of the other guides request that.
It seems I think about you as a kind of parent that might or might not know what is best for me.
So what about those satsangs? PLEASE! PLEASE!

This is both interesting and useful. A technique that is productive, is to ask "what is this resistance about ?" and then to notice the first train of thought that arises.
What are those thoughts ?

This is about resistance about the true/false discussion of statements and stories. I don't understand what you mean and it seems to me of a purely philosophical nature. I don't understand the difference between saying "I am blind" or "this organism has no visual capacity". Ok, now I see: saying "I" means identifying with the body. So it is in the language. Our use of language points to it. Interesting how while describing my resistance understanding just happens

Oh my poor brain. I must stop now. Might be coming back later.

Thank you Vince

Renate

[Nati]

some more...
I read this today in the ix thread:

one thing that landed from the blog was how ridiculous it is to take this identity personally-- as if "I" had anything to do with its DNA, with its conditioning. when that sunk in (which it seems to have to do a 1,000 times) it was natural to extend that to others as well. all just unique representations animated by the same energy.

This sunk in here somehow and a useful story emerged: If I am a completely conditioned being then I must be innocent. No guilt necessary. Then I am in the same state as animals. And I do love animals for their being innocent. There was a lightness in my body followed by doing some household activities without resistance.
Now, writing this, another heavier story creeps up: What about being responsible, what about creating one's life? Is there really no free will? Is not choice being part of our humanity? "I" seems to hold dear these noble ideas. But they are being questioned.
Mooji says: You're not the thinker of your thoughts, you're not the doer of your deeds.

And I respect him as someone who knows and says the truth. Joining the live Satsang now. :))
But maybe it would even be a relief if i dropped everything but our dialogue.

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Renate.

but was too tired to reply.

This is good. Did you notice things percolating as you went to sleep ?

So I just went home and was content that I had put my well being first. No bad feelings about that.

Excellent. If you consider it, then it becomes apparent that to feel bad about anything as no possibility of fixing it, as it is already in the past.

I will support this by...

Ok, just be relaxed about it.

So - if I find the story useful I cherish it and if not I laugh it away?

In both cases, laugh. But not to chase it away. Laugh in celebration at the recognizing of the 'sucked into the story'. (this is a huge contributor to the brain rewiring)

Thoughts just seem to arise out of nowhere. I can't control them but I can choose if I take them on or not,

Is it more thoughts that are (seeming) to do the choosing ?

And with it comes a feeling of...

Now, this is a HUGE one. (and a little tricky) Let's say that you are feeling 'bad'. You want to not feel bad, right ? Does that 'want', add to the feeling 'bad' ? Does the resistance to the 'bad' feeling, add to the 'bad' feeling ?
Let's say that you are feeling 'good'. Does wanting to keep that feeling amount to resistance ? Does wanting to feel even better, take you away from the already 'good' feeling ?
Would the 'best' 'course of action' be to 'surrender to' whatever is already present ?
Now by 'surrender', i don't mean 'give up'. A welcoming, willing acceptance, is more like it. (more here http://vince-wisingup.blogspot.com.au/s ... =surrender

On another level there are thoughts like...

What is your relationship to these thoughts ? Is there enough objectivity to recognize that they are just thoughts ? (or are you sucked into living out the content of them ?)

is ok to watch Satsang with Mooji?

Let me answer it this way. When we are 'done', you will understand Mooji (and others) differently. i don't have a 'rule' about this, but it will distract you. If you bring back here what you 'get' from him, that can be ok. i suggest that you give everything else a rest for a couple of weeks, so we can focus, laser like, on what is present for you.

I don't understand the difference between saying "I am blind" or "this organism has no visual capacity".

Ok, just put this aside for the moment. It will become clear a bit further down the track. (It is not philosophical)

Interesting how while describing my resistance understanding just happens

Yes, wonder full.

What about being responsible, what about creating one's life? Is there really no free will? Is not choice being part of our humanity? "I" seems to hold dear these noble ideas. But they are being questioned.

Ok, we will come back to these points later too.

Mooji says: You're not the thinker of your thoughts, you're not the doer of your deeds.

This is a good example of what i said above. It is too early for you to know what he means.
It's actually too early for me to know what he means too, but i get the gist.
Our best 'bet' at this stage is to accept that the "you" that he refers to is a big mystery.

love

vince