Hello! Looking for a Guide.

[lonesky]

A thought doesn't gnaw except if it is even momentarily identified with. As soon as you see it for what it is, it loses it's power. The velcro turns into butter. So all you have to do is keep watching what happens, and the identification will (most likely) fall faster and faster and occur less and less.

Yes, this is a process that is being observed now. The thoughts come with "I" and there is remembering that it is only thought. Then there is questioning if there is actually an "I" there.

The unidentified state can become a familiar state.

This helps! Right now it's like I'm sort of in between seeing that the thoughts "I" aren't actually true, and then there is still believing it from time to time. I'm guessing that eventually it will be more natural to simply not function with an "I" anymore.

It can also be useful to look at who is actually feeling tired. Is it a person feeling that, or simply a known sensation?

The thought says "I am feeling this" along with the sensation, but there is no "I" to be found aside from the thought. The sensation is felt of course, but it's not "my" sensation. It's just sensation.

So life happens. Choices seem to be made, but by no one. The body moves around, interacts with others, "has a life", but there is no owner of that life, and no one making the choices. Is that your experience too?

There is understanding of this on some level, and it's actually quite mind-boggling when it occurs to me that choices are happening. I'm so used to calling them "my" choices that it is very strange to notice that choices might actually just be happening on their own. Still, there is some disbelief. I feel like more looking just needs to happen here.

Exactly. This is an important point. Really focus on this. "You" are not convinced of anything. The thought speaks of an "I" that is convinced of one thing or another. But the thought isn't thought by someone, and the I referred to doesn't exist. It's just a thought with certain content, entirely impersonal.

While sitting and doing some inquiry today, I noticed that there is constant narration about what is happening, and it is recognized that this inquiry is also just stories in thought. It's a thought arguing other thoughts. It's like an internal debate going on. lol

"But I must be here!"

"That's just a thought! Where is the you that's thinking that?"

"Well, who's thinking that one?"

"And what about that one? Where is it coming from? Are you thinking it? Where are you?"

"Who's listening to these thoughts?"

"All of this is just thought! This is all a story."

Just an example of what's happening in thought during this inquiring process. Very confusing. I don't know if I'm thinking too much into this but more and more, it is seen that even inquiring into who is "I" is a story, and that this speculating is all just story of "I" doing something.

Try it out for yourself. When you get emotional - and of course this tends to work best with "negative" emotions - try to look at the present moment and ask yourself what this moment would be like without the content of thinking. Would you be mad at your colleague without thoughts about what he did or didn't do? Would you be worried about paying your bills right now if there were no thoughts about bills? Would you need to lose/gain weight if all there was was just life going on without all the narrative? The only thing that makes moments good or bad is in our thinking. This seems to be a really banal point, but it's very powerful when you start using it in everyday worries.

This was tricky to do because it seems like thoughts are constantly arising and there are hardly moments without thought that I remember.

I was a bit annoyed today in traffic when someone cut me off. haha I took the time to analyze what was going on. If there were no thoughts then, then I don't think annoyance would have happened. The story was told in the mind of how someone cut me off and how they shouldn't have done that. The response to that was a feeling of anger.

I can really see how the thoughts or rather the story about what is happening can be the cause for a lot of umm... suffering? I suppose that would be the word for it. It's still hard to imagine life lived fully without thought or stories.

There are periods of no thought for sure. Like, when watching a movie or something. And I have nothing to say about those moments! haha. They were fine. "I" was absent in those times and barely conscious of anything outside of the movie. It's quite a nice experience but I wonder how it would be possible to be like that constantly.

Thoughts say they want a click, thoughts say they want to understand where it comes from. Is it you thinking that, or are these thoughts just coming up? If you don't control the thoughts, would it make sense to keep working with this model of a person trying to understand something?

This idea of "me trying to get it" is part of the story of "me" and isn't actually valid beyond thought. I think that's what you're trying to say and that's understood to some extent. This is sort of what's causing the confusion because part of the process of looking if there is an "I" requires thought. Yet, it seems like there is no controller of thought... So it just sort of puts my mind on tilt.

I hope I'm not being too vague on the things I write or if I'm being too conceptual. This process seems to raise a lot of questions and a lot of thinking.

It seems like in spirituality, it's often advised that one should think less or deal with less thoughts. People are encouraged to quiet their minds, right? Yet here I am having this internal debate. It feels like maybe I'm thinking too much. But that's just more story telling too it seems.

[itstopshere]

It's not necessary to quiet the mind. It can be a useful tool, just to get more familiar with what the mind does. It makes it easier to differentiate between mind and no-mind, especially when you feel you don't have a good idea of what no-mind is like. But it is not necessary to meditate for 30 years to attain one thing or the other. All that in the end needs to be done, is to see through thoughts, and it also seems (this is how it was for me anyway) that some confusion and frustration is part of that process. I recognize what you describe from my own experience.
I think you are very well on your way. It's late here now, so I'll reply tomorrow with more questions, but I think you can see now how you always have something to work with and on :)

[lonesky]

Hi itstopshere!

Yes, I can see how the process of inquiry just goes on. There is more looking to be done. I am relieved to know that the confusion is part of the process. Thanks for your reply. Have a good night. :)

[itstopshere]

Also look at this process that appears to be happening (without choice) of confusion, and then a seeking to get rid of the confusion. 1) do you do this "trying to get rid of confusion"? 2) what is "confusion" actually? Who is confused? Can you find actual confusion happening, or is it just one thought after another, seemingly reinforcing each other, seemingly responding to each other -- but even that "responding" cannot be found?

Just something I'd like to point out: identification might never go away entirely. Maybe it will. Who knows. The most important point is that you see the dynamic, and you can see through it as soon as it happens. So definitely at first it is very well possible that thoughts keep talking about not being ready, needing more looking, not getting it (thoughts cannot get anything).

You say about the "no-I":

Still, there is some disbelief. I feel like more looking just needs to happen here.

What is this disbelief? Who thinks more looking is required, and why is it thought?

"But I must be here!"

"That's just a thought! Where is the you that's thinking that?"

"Well, who's thinking that one?"

"And what about that one? Where is it coming from? Are you thinking it? Where are you?"

"Who's listening to these thoughts?"

"All of this is just thought! This is all a story."

Just an example of what's happening in thought during this inquiring process. Very confusing. I don't know if I'm thinking too much into this but more and more, it is seen that even inquiring into who is "I" is a story, and that this speculating is all just story of "I" doing something.

Very good. Indeed, you are starting to see it. This is what is meant when it is said that trying to achieve enlightenment is like a dog chasing its tail. It will never ever ever ever get it. It cannot. (not that we are striving for enlightenment here, but the dynamic is exactly the same)

I can really see how the thoughts or rather the story about what is happening can be the cause for a lot of umm... suffering? I suppose that would be the word for it. It's still hard to imagine life lived fully without thought or stories.

You can call it suffering. You can call it banana pancakes :) It's just thoughts. I am not saying here that suffering isn't real or felt, but once seen through, it is a pretty silly dynamic.
A life fully without thoughts is probably close to impossible, though some say to have achieved it. It's not necessary. It's just the identification that needs to fall away.

There are periods of no thought for sure. Like, when watching a movie or something. And I have nothing to say about those moments! haha. They were fine. "I" was absent in those times and barely conscious of anything outside of the movie. It's quite a nice experience but I wonder how it would be possible to be like that constantly.

Yes!
And without suggesting this is what you were doing, many people seem to distract their 'monkey minds' through these kinds of activities, to get some true direct experience. When thoughts are seen through, everything becomes direct experience. Thoughts become a part of that, instead of in the way of it.

This is sort of what's causing the confusion because part of the process of looking if there is an "I" requires thought. Yet, it seems like there is no controller of thought... So it just sort of puts my mind on tilt.

I understand. So then try to answer that one. Who is doing the inquiry?

[lonesky]

Hey, I just wanted to post for today to let you know that I'm still working on your question and I will get back to you when I have spent a bit more time on them.

[itstopshere]

Sure lonesky! Take your time.

[lonesky]

Also look at this process that appears to be happening (without choice) of confusion, and then a seeking to get rid of the confusion. 1) do you do this "trying to get rid of confusion"? 2) what is "confusion" actually? Who is confused? Can you find actual confusion happening, or is it just one thought after another, seemingly reinforcing each other, seemingly responding to each other -- but even that "responding" cannot be found?

Yes, thoughts are reinforcing the belief in each other. The idea of confusion arises, and the thought to get rid of it arises, then the thought that I am not good for being unable to get rid of it arises, but it's all just imagined. Confusion is only the story told about what seems to be happening with other thoughts.

Just something I'd like to point out: identification might never go away entirely. Maybe it will. Who knows. The most important point is that you see the dynamic, and you can see through it as soon as it happens. So definitely at first it is very well possible that thoughts keep talking about not being ready, needing more looking, not getting it (thoughts cannot get anything).

Yes, there are moments all the time where thoughts say things like not being ready or that "I haven't gotten it yet" or something like that. But that whole dynamic now is being watched and seen as the way in which the sense of "I" is reinforced.

Will, there be a point where seeing through identification becomes more natural? Right now, it seems like there is effort to watch this process happening and there is constant remembering that it's just thought.

I understand. So then try to answer that one. Who is doing the inquiry?

Any answer to this question seems to be more thought. There is no thinker to be found. The moment of inquiry arises. Thoughts arise in response to each other. There seems to be sitting and watching thought. It feels like "I" am the one doing the inquiry, but that is seen as thought. Then the thought "there is no one thinking" comes. Then the thought "but you're not convinced yet!" comes.

It's strange because even the answers that are written here are somehow seen as just more of the story. There is now seeing of how thought continues to talk about what is happening and how "I" should feel about it. But without the thoughts, it seems like there is not even the sense of "I". It's not even like "I" doesn't exist. It's more like, the process of "I" just doesn't happen without thought.

[itstopshere]

Also look at this process that appears to be happening (without choice) of confusion, and then a seeking to get rid of the confusion. 1) do you do this "trying to get rid of confusion"? 2) what is "confusion" actually? Who is confused? Can you find actual confusion happening, or is it just one thought after another, seemingly reinforcing each other, seemingly responding to each other -- but even that "responding" cannot be found?

Yes, thoughts are reinforcing the belief in each other. The idea of confusion arises, and the thought to get rid of it arises, then the thought that I am not good for being unable to get rid of it arises, but it's all just imagined. Confusion is only the story told about what seems to be happening with other thoughts.

EXACTLY! Awesome. Or well, with maybe 1 nuance to be made: thoughts do not actually reinforce a belief in one another. Thoughts don't know of each other's existence. They are playing like a record. The 2nd song knows nothing of the 1st, even though it may refer to its content. There might or might not be an underlying process that is making these thoughts be coherent, but the thoughts themselves surely aren't doing anything.

Just something I'd like to point out: identification might never go away entirely. Maybe it will. Who knows. The most important point is that you see the dynamic, and you can see through it as soon as it happens. So definitely at first it is very well possible that thoughts keep talking about not being ready, needing more looking, not getting it (thoughts cannot get anything).

Yes, there are moments all the time where thoughts say things like not being ready or that "I haven't gotten it yet" or something like that. But that whole dynamic now is being watched and seen as the way in which the sense of "I" is reinforced.

Will, there be a point where seeing through identification becomes more natural? Right now, it seems like there is effort to watch this process happening and there is constant remembering that it's just thought.

It most likely will. Conditioning needs to fade away and that takes time. It also took time to build it up.
But note that even this apparent effort is nothing more than a feeling and a thought, there is no you that is experiencing effort.

I understand. So then try to answer that one. Who is doing the inquiry?

Any answer to this question seems to be more thought. There is no thinker to be found. The moment of inquiry arises. Thoughts arise in response to each other. There seems to be sitting and watching thought. It feels like "I" am the one doing the inquiry, but that is seen as thought. Then the thought "there is no one thinking" comes. Then the thought "but you're not convinced yet!" comes.

It's strange because even the answers that are written here are somehow seen as just more of the story. There is now seeing of how thought continues to talk about what is happening and how "I" should feel about it. But without the thoughts, it seems like there is not even the sense of "I". It's not even like "I" doesn't exist. It's more like, the process of "I" just doesn't happen without thought.

Seems to me like you've got it...
Do you feel like you're ready for the final questions? (note, if you're interested we can always continue a dialogue afterwards, so there is no need to feel like I'm throwing you off a cliff and expect you to fly on your own from here).

[lonesky]

Hi!

It really seems as though I got it, but momentarily there is forgetting. There is being caught up in a self at times.

"I didn't really get anything! I'm still here. How can I not be here?"

Then after that whole dynamic plays out, it is remembered that it's all a show-- that although this experience may seem catered to an individual, believing there to be an actual individual is an assumption of what is experienced.

It's strange that at some moments, there is clear seeing of this, and there is a relaxation to let everything unfold the way it does. Then sometimes there is thought arguing there must be an "I" somewhere and there is still following of that thought until what was talked about here is remembered.

But now it's understood that that is just also part of what's unfolding. That when looked at closely, there is no "I" which is doing any of the thinking. Thoughts just make it seem like there is an "I" just like an illusion.

I feel ready, yes! And I would very much like for a dialogue to continue, although I'm not sure if I'll have any questions left because the answer will always be the same it seems.

[itstopshere]

Great. If you would like more dialogue or wish to look deeper into others things (there is plenty to deconstruct besides the "I"), I am definitely open to chatting on with you. We have a separate part of the forum for that once you are confirmed as "through the gate." You can also be added to several Facebook groups. It's a nice community with interesting resources and other gate crashers :)
Anyways, here are the questions, take your time with them.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

After you have answered them, I will have some other guides look over the answers you gave, and they may or may not have additional questions for you.

[lonesky]

Great. If you would like more dialogue or wish to look deeper into others things (there is plenty to deconstruct besides the "I"), I am definitely open to chatting on with you. We have a separate part of the forum for that once you are confirmed as "through the gate." You can also be added to several Facebook groups. It's a nice community with interesting resources and other gate crashers :)
Anyways, here are the questions, take your time with them.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no such entity at all anywhere and there never was. It was only ever a habit in thought, probably learned behavior.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of separate self is the belief that there is an individual "me" that lives within the body and is control of its own life.

It seems to start at a young age when the body is seen as an individual body apart from the others, and the assumption is made that there is an individual entity who controls the body and experience.

Right now, thoughts, feelings, and sensations, are experienced. Everything happens spotaneously, automatically, and effortlessly. The sense of "I" only appears in thought in the form of dialogue or story, and with the belief in those thoughts arise feelings of contraction in the body. But the feelings and the belief associated with "I" are only part of the dialogue that is happening in thought.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Before the dialogue began, there was absolute conviction that there must be a "me" here that is controlling movement and thinking its own thoughts. When I started, I had only a conceptual understanding of no self and had not really looked to verify it.

When looking began, thoughts were watched and "I" was seen to be nothing more than thought. It was thought that was saying that "I" needed to find "I" or that "I" was still here.

When this dynamic was seen, it was then realized that there is actually nobody in control of experience. All arise spontaneously out of nowhere, and any claims that "I" had done any of it was seen as assumption.

Now, there are moments of clarity when thoughts are seen to be passing and everything happens freely without the sense of "I". Sometimes, there is forgetting, but eventually that is seen as just more dialogue from the mind.

When emotions arise, they are seen as simply uncontrollable passing phenomenon and in a sense, they are free to pass, whereas before, there might have been a story told about it and an attempt to get rid of it.

It feels very good to see this! There are moments of amusement from seeing the dynamic of "I" happening in thought. It feels freeing. It makes me wonder about how it will affect other parts of life. This understanding is still deepening so I assume the effects it will have will only become apparent over time.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Hearing all the talk about no-self from various speakers and seeing people actively engaged in this forum really made me motivated to take a look for myself. Having a guide walk me through the process made this looking seem like the most important thing to do right then.

During a moment of inquiry, there was a dialogue in thought of looking for the "I". At some point, frustration took over and there was a thought that there is of course an "I" present. My guide told me that the frustration and confusion was also just part of the dialogue. Immediately it was seen that this was all a story, that this was the way that "I" is maintained, and without the dialogue, there is no "I". This is what took away the deep conviction.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Decisions happen in response to the moment. Intention arises from nowhere. Free will, choice, and control are all assumptions. It's not that there is no free will or choice, rather, there is no "I" to have free will or choice. Choice happens, movement of the body happens, but there is no chooser or controller.

There is nothing that I am responsible for because there is no "I". This is absolutely a radical realization. There is only what is happening. There is only appearance of individual bodies engaging in activity, but it is all without control. Responsibility comes with the belief that there is an "I" which can do something about anything. Still, in a sense, this individual appears to continue to function in the world and so responsibilities of the individual are still maintained, but with knowing that it all just an appearance.

Watching this experience right now, there is typing happening, there is working out the concepts in thought and thinking of what to say, there is seeing, there are the sensations in the body. All of this arise without "my" control. Althoug it may seem that I am in charge of the typing and the thinking, the truth is that it is only assumed to be so. There is no "I" here and all seeming actions arise out of nowhere without control.

6) Anything to add?

Yes, like I have said, this is still all so new. It seems that this understanding is still deepening in a way. There is still constant remembering that there is no "I" and I predict that there will come a point where this understanding really sinks in and the feeling sense of "I" will completely fall away.

There is some trouble with language though because experience still must be described subjectively using "I" and "me". I guess that's just part of it! haha

Aside from that, I just want to say thank you, itstopshere, for walking me through this process!! :)

There has never been seeing of no self quite like this before. This seems like a radical shift in how everything is perceived and it seems that it will only continue to change.

[itstopshere]

Great answers lonesky. They seem clear to me, but I might be overlooking some small parts where you are still holding on to an "I", so let's see what the other guides say. :) Will get back to you soon.

[itstopshere]

All my fellow guides were entirely convinced by your answers. Great stuff and congratulations! You're through the gate :)

You're color on the forum will soon change from green to blue, which means that you're confirmed and then you can also see some extra parts of the forum. This conversation will be moved to the archive at some point, but as said we can have a conversation somewhere else, either on facebook or in the new parts of the forum that will become available to you.
Are you interested in the Facebook community or not at this point? If you are I'll send you a private message on how to proceed.

It was great to work with you! You were very engaged and a quick learner :) May the "I" be without you.