Thread for Rebecca

[Jack'n'theBox]

It’s really great to read this Rebecca – you are definitley finding the right orientation here.

What is being pointed to isn’t any kind of ‘experience’ – that implies a subject that is experiencing an object. Nor is it any kind of ‘state’ that needs establishing. What is it that could permanently abide in any state – there is no thing that can ‘get it’ or lose it’! There is only ever just this, just now. Whatever is currently arising – that’s it. Only thought says that there ‘should be’ something else – but that thought itself is just another dependent arising.

What is being pointed to is that which ‘includes’ or ‘embraces’ that which arises – the space that ‘accepts’ what we call experience. For most people their attention is 100% focussed ‘outward’ on the arisings – they hold the belief that they are a person in a body, navigating a world of obstacles. But turn attention to the space in which the arisings appear – and that includes the idea that you are a 'person' - and suddenly the emotional and cognitive energy we pour into these objects dissipates – there is just unboundedness and calm – like the deep, calm waters of the ocean under the fraught surface of the waves.

This space doesn’t need to be ‘established’ since it is always already there in every moment. Indeed the thought that something needs to be done (by somebody) in order to establish it – is what pulls you back into duality.

So can you work with this today as a koan – maybe go for a walk out in nature – but really you can see this in any activity –

Can you find a dividing line anywhere between ‘me’ and ‘everything else’?

[Rebecca]

But turn attention to the space in which the arisings appear – and that includes the idea that you are a 'person' - and suddenly the emotional and cognitive energy we pour into these objects dissipates – there is just unboundedness and calm – like the deep, calm waters of the ocean under the fraught surface of the waves.
So can you work with this today as a koan – maybe go for a walk out in nature – but really you can see this in any activity –
Can you find a dividing line anywhere between ‘me’ and ‘everything else’?

Sitting by a river today and walking in a forest the flow and flux of the present moment has a vibrational aliveness- no dividing line between and entity 'me' and leaves, river, log.....
Pure and calm and .....'alive'. And definitely deep relaxation from the letting go of any ' efforting ' to be being any 'thing' . In meditation and more frequently moment by moment off the mat there is an ease to the slight movement of focus sometimes needed to dwell in the expanded space rather than focus on the thought, feeling, story that suspends itself in or glides across that space. There is a sense of a crest of a wave often accompanied by a physical sensation in the area of the gut and then a deep peace.

[Jack'n'theBox]

Ok that's great, so let's have a look at the questions below and see if these bring up any points that we need to investigate further. Remember to answer these directly from what you can observe in the moment -- not from thinking about them:

Where is 'self' in the arising and passing of experience?
Can you find, a “self” that is the ‘experiencer’?
Or a “self” that is the doer, or can control what happens?
Or a “self” that ‘makes’ decisions?
Or a “self” who ‘does the thinking’?
Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this “self”?
Is there a “self” ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?
If there is no “self” – are there “others” – what is direct experience of “others”?

[Rebecca]

Where is 'self' in the arising and passing of experience?

When looking ...no 'self' can be found. 'It's' not 'there' . Seeing it now as an illusion due to a previous tendency to identify those passing and arisings as 'me 'or mine' .

Can you find, a “self” that is the ‘experiencer’?

No

Or a “self” that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Sitting here right now looking ...no ...no 'doer' is found. Sometimes a sense of a 'doer' starts to arise again but the question is there 'someone' that has to do 'some thing' .....creates the shift to unbounded space where there isn't even 'anyone' to ask the question anymore.

Or a “self” that ‘makes’ decisions?

no ' self' needing to make decisions is found.
Before there has been a sense it could 'take form' ..some 'thing' that is going to try to make a decision ......but again when looking for a ''self ' that 'needs to make a decision' 'it' simply doesn't exist. There is an opening out and spontaneous movement to an action that arises and that movement lives on into further action.

Or a “self” who ‘does the thinking’

No thinker. Just arising and falling away of thought at times.

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this “self”?

No
The body senses are there alive,arising and falling and fading away ..
there is a 'living on' of them -not a 'self' 'having' them.

Is there a “self” ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

No definitely not!!!

If there is no “self” – are there “others” – what is direct experience of “others”?

directly looking there is no 'other' that is fixed and known.
No 'this friend' or 'that person'' ....nothing known, stable or fixed.
Any arising 'view' of 'them' slides away, it seems to not be able to stick and the expanded, unbounded space/state is 'alive' and in flow and no 'me and other' exists. There is a dance of 'energetic responses ' in a relaxed and alive space..ripe for the next arising /falling away.
Direct experience of 'others' is not found but there is movement, expansion and contraction, rising and falling in a space/ state that is peaceful and relaxed. No efforting.

[Jack'n'theBox]

Lovely to read these responses Rebecca. What we do now is I ask you some summing up questions and ask other guides to have a look to see if they can spot any issues that would benefit from further inquiry. Once there are no further questions, there are some discussion groups and information sites you may like to join where people continue to explore together. So here goes:

) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?

Please give examples from recent experience.

6) Anything to add?

[Rebecca]

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

No 'me' 'self' 'I' exists in any form. 'It' cannot be found

Was there ever?

No

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

In the spaciousness of the deep, unbounded state that is always here and present arises energetic responses, either contraction or expansion, to thoughts, feelings and actions. If the full focus is given to the thoughts,feelings and actions, an illusory 'self' starts to come into relationship with these movements , these arisings and fallings, as if they are fixed and permanent. This habit of 'owning' any given experience is such a repeated habit it forms the illusion of a solid entity of 'my' and 'mine' when there is really none.
However as the focus is more regularly shifted to the space between the habits as they begin to form then there is an expansive, unbounded energy. Responses and actions arise spontaneously from this flow.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

A deep relaxation comes from not needing to 'effort' or sort out life for an 'I' that doesn't exist anyway.
There is an opening up to the unfolding of life.
Also a deep trust to keep the focus on the space between the 'habits of congealing thoughts and feelings into a 'self'.
Even if this starts to happen a sense of ' self' can't 'stick' in any more permanent way. Seen through ' it' dissolves, dissipates.
Before this dialogue,in meditation there could easily be connection with unbounded consciousness but off the meditation mat this was often obscured by relentless cycles of stories seemingly driven by a 'self' that needed to understand and be understood, control outcomes and 'think out its life'.
With the aide of direct pointing questions it's now clear this 'big mind' is always there in any moment.
Taking the energy contractions and expansions too seriously as 'fixed formings' allow a 'self' to find purchase. These habitual responses of 'selfing' are like clouds that drift across the sky. Now it's known that they can never truly obscure the moon.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

The direction from you to look at the space between the thoughts had a profound effect in knowing that this alive, vibrant flow of life is always there in any millisecond.
I could refocus away from the 'selfing' to the unbounded expansive state.
Then the middle of the night waking in response to suffering ( waking to a 'knowing' of a family members illness) without any story at all...just direct experience - no 'I' experiencing it.
There was a knowing that this is how it really is ALL the time, second to second but the past habitual focus on the ' stories' obscured really seeing it. Now there is a sense of not being able to 'unsee' it ever again.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?

There isn't an 'I ' to be responsible for anything. There isn't an 'I' that needs to have anything in particular happen. Just always opening to the unbounded state will enable a 'living on' in grounded presence. There is a pure knowing that 'lives itself on' if not obscured by taking the selfing seriously. There is freedom to keep unfolding into the flow of life and no ' thing ' that needs to 'have' free will. Just the word ' control' now makes me laugh! There is no such thing. The only intention needed is to keep the focus on the unbounded space.

Please give examples from recent experience.

Before this dialogue began there had been an intention to set up a particular lifestyle situation for 'me' and 'others'.
This morning on waking there was a 'knowing' that some things may get in the way of that being able to happen. As a ' story' started to form around another person that might block this vision unfolding it just became a 'cloud' sliding across the sky. The fixed sense of the other ' person' could not be held ( this story would have usually been full of judgment, blame of other etc ).
Even a thought of 'my vision might not happen' could not be held in a fixed way.
Just staying with the direct experience of initial thought and physical responses brought an opening into an expansive state which of course had been there all the time. So in that moment there felt no need to ' make a decision' or follow up anything. Something will arise from being in direct experience with this unbounded state and will live on to perhaps be an action, verbal response or choice that will come from that depth. Relaxed unfolding is the best way I can describe the trust in this 'flow' that is experienced now.

6) Anything to add?

Bowing in gratitude to you for your gift of time, questions and mentoring.

[Jack'n'theBox]

Great, thanks Rebecca. This makes me laugh too:

"Just the word ' control' now makes me laugh!"

Let me see if other guides have questions for us to look at.

[Jack'n'theBox]

Hi Rebecca, a query form another guide:

When you say "These habitual responses of 'selfing' are like clouds that drift across the sky. Now it's known that they can never truly obscure the moon."

Is there some thing or person that knows this?

[Rebecca]

No -no one or no thing can be found that knows this- it just is.

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK thank you. No more questions. Please check your PMs at the top of the page for a message about joining groups. This may take a day or two to come through.

Bye for now,

JV