In need of assistance here

[Freddi]

OK, Rolly, here are six summing-up questions.

Take your time with these, let them percolate. As you have done during our conversation, scan your direct experience for the answers. Look into what is alive, here and now, and stay away from spiritual jargon.
Don't worry if you repeat some previous answers, some may overlap. Copy and paste if you want.
Be as detailed as you like and don’t forget examples for question 5.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are 'you' responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

I look forward to your answers!

Warm wishes,

Fred

[JimmyG]

Good morning Fred

Thank you for the summing-up questions.

Since I am going for an extensive walk today and have other things to do, it will take some time to answer. Please bear with me.

thanks so much
Rolly

[JimmyG]

Hi Fred

I did an extensive and most beautiful 4-hour walk with a friend along rivers, fields, forests, houses and finally the lake waterfront yesterday. Here's what comes up this morning:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, I can’t draw lines, can’t cut off bits and pieces from this one happening, can’t disconnect anything – there’s no separation, just one happening. Hearing, seeing, touching, smelling – all just happen. Then thought as my ‘self’ comes in. It requires a story, a thought stream with past and future events.
I recognize that this mind stream is like clouds passing by, covering up the vast sky. The clouds are constantly in motion but the sky is always there even on a darker cloudy day. In this way I see my thoughts coming in and fading. The ‘self’, ‘me’ and ‘I’ is just a story, thought. No thought, no story. This background ‘blue sky’, the no self, is simply there, always, infinite.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Sometimes early morning after coming out of sleep I feel this vast and very still peace. I don’t think about anything, just this peace. Then after a while thought sets in and ‘I’ remember ‘my’ story. The ‘self’ is born with this first thought. Pain and pleasure appear depending upon whether I give in to what looks like a commentating voice. Given in to the commentating voice in my head then makes ‘my’ day – basically suffering. Once I become aware of this mind stream thought instantly begin to recede. The more attentive I become the less commentating. Once the clearing happens I see that there is no self hence no experiencer, no doer and no controller since that requires thought, my identification with thought, in the first place.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Well, it seems like I read so much, listened to so many teachers, grasped a thousand ideas, but I never truly just looked. I would study in my room, elating myself, often feeling somewhat superior. Then by going out, mingling with people getting confused, upset and depressed – over and over again. Then I embarked on Nonduality starting with Eckhard Tolle, listened to many hours of talks, felt good for a moment, then went out and the same thing happened as before – depression. Kind of like accidentally I bumped into Robert Wolfe’s books, got inspired and read them all. But still depression kept lingering, appearing and disappearing. Finally I stranded on the LU website and started the dialog with Fred, who insisted on a concise looking, scan my direct experience and forget about spiritual jargon which hence I consequently did. I almost instantly happened that I began to take long lone walks in nature. It felt like a continuous clearing up, a refinement of the way I look. But still my sports commentator stubbornly kept intruding.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

What really pushed me over was this specific dialogue with Fred:

Fred: As you have looked in direct experience, have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’, the ‘doer’, or ‘the controller’?
Rolly: Hearing, seeing, touching, smelling – all just happens, I can’t see a self, only thoughts about a ‘self’. No, I can’t find a ‘self’.
I recognize that, what is, a happening that is named and labeled by thoughts, just as passing clouds cover up the vast sky on a cloudy day. I don’t see a reality to thoughts and so I can’t find an ‘experiencer’.
Same thing with doing. I see that there is ‘doing happening’ and again, thoughts commentating. Without a ‘self’, without an ‘experiencer’ I find no doer here.
Who would be the controller here? I can’t make out a controller of what is, of what is happening now. I find that thoughts create the impression, or better the illusion, of a controlling ‘I’.
Fred: With no one in charge, no one at the helm, what are ‘you’ responsible for?
Rolly:Ups… If I summarize – no, self, no experiencer, no doer, not even a controller – who or what could be responsible of what? Uups…this is really striking…
[/b][/u][/u]Fred: Have you been able to find a self that does the thinking?
Rolly: Again, the concept of a ‘self’ requires thinking? I can’t find a ‘self’ which defies thought.
Fred: Is the "body" just another thought label for various sensations?
Rolly: Yes, definitely. There’s the movement of this body happening and there’s the commentating thought stream. Movements just happen, I cannot make out or think out, how to just lift my finger. It just happens and thought commentates.
Fred: Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?
Rolly: …this is striking… same thing, no separation whatsoever

Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are 'you' responsible for? Give examples from experience.

I find by really looking that decision, intention, free will, choice and control all just happen spontaneously and then thoughts step in, commentating begins. There’s no point explicitly in time when I decide or intend. There’s always a happening with a follow up of thoughts.
For example an idea pops up out of the blue: ‘call Franco’, my commentating, naming and labelling of the situation sets in after the popping up.
Or the intention of doing the dishes just pops up and so I think about doing the dishes, washing the dishes just happens. Where did the intention arise? I started thinking about it after the original popping up. Same with breathing. It just happens but if I pay attention to my breathing I think that ‘I’ do the breathing. Then my attention shifts, say I watch a movie, while breathing just continues without ‘my’ doing/controlling or anything – it just happens all the time. The body functions also seem to be in our control. But all functions happen perfectly and simultaneously how distracted this ‘I’ is by whatever mind stream.
However I find it amazing that free will is just illusionary too since the decisions, intentions, choices and control all just happen and only afterward commentating thoughts begin, identification with thought. I mistakenly might think that I choose where I take my vacation next. ‘London’ pops up and I instantly take it for granted that it’s my decision. But by truly looking how the popping up happened out of the blue and thought recognizing it – there’s no free will.
If there is no ‘self’, no ‘me’ and no ‘I’ which does the deciding, the intending, having any free will, the choosing and the controlling – how could there be any responsibility by anybody anywhere – there is just happening an no self.

6) Anything to add?

Basically I find two choices. I can give in to mind stream – suffering ensues. Or I can truly look and see the behind the illusion – clarity ensues.

Thanks so much, Fred
Rolly

[Freddi]

Hello Rolly,

Thank you for your detailed and clear answers. Just a couple of points to clarify.. :-)

In Q1:

This background ‘blue sky’, the no self, is simply there, always, infinite.

Is there a ‘thing’ out there, called ‘the no self’? Is that a concept that now replaces the ‘self’? What do you mean by this? Is the ‘no self’ any more real than the ‘self’?

In Q2 and 6:

I find two choices. I can give in to mind stream – suffering ensues. Or I can truly look and see the behind the illusion – clarity ensues.

Is there anybody there having a choice, or is there just the flow of Life?
Is the illusion still an illusion whether or not you give into thoughts? Do ‘you’ have to ‘become aware of the mind stream’ in order for the ‘self’ to disappear? In other words is it there when you are not looking?

In Q5:

I find by really looking that decision, intention, free will, choice and control all just happen spontaneously and then thoughts step in

There’s the appearance of control, without any entity there to control, can we truly say that ‘control’ happens?

Warm wishes,

Fred

[JimmyG]

Hi Fred:

In Q2 and 6:
I find two choices. I can give in to mind stream – suffering ensues. Or I can truly look and see the behind the illusion – clarity ensues.
Is there anybody there having a choice, or is there just the flow of Life?

Again, there seems to be an appearance of choice but in actuality I recognize the flow of life, no one, no ‘self’, there to choose, life just happening.

Is the illusion still an illusion whether or not you give into thoughts?

Yes, the illusion is still there, whether or not I give into thoughts. But without identification, no suffering.

Do ‘you’ have to ‘become aware of the mind stream’ in order for the ‘self’ to disappear?

No, the self actually is never there in the first place, just an illusionary identification of mind stream. So that there is no ‘self’ to appear and disappear.

In other words is it there when you are not looking?

Same thing – there’s no ‘self’ whatsoever.

In Q5:
I find by really looking that decision, intention, free will, choice and control all just happen spontaneously and then thoughts step in.
There’s the appearance of control, without any entity there to control, can we truly say that ‘control’ happens?

No, control is not conforming to decision, intention, free will and choice. If something is controlled, there’s got to be a controller which with no ‘self’ is not possible. Instead of control it is more adequate to point to a bare ‘flow of life, yes.

Thanks a lot
Rolly

[Freddi]

Thanks again for your responses, Rolly. Could you just look into the first question?

Rolly: This background ‘blue sky’, the no self, is simply there, always, infinite.

Is there a ‘thing’ out there, called ‘the no self’? Is that a concept that now replaces the ‘self’? What do you mean by this? Is the ‘no self’ any more real than the ‘self’?

Thanks!

Fred

[JimmyG]

Hi Fred
"

Rolly: This background ‘blue sky’, the no self, is simply there, always, infinite.
Fredi: Is there a ‘thing’ out there, called ‘the no self’? Is that a concept that now replaces the ‘self’? What do you mean by this? Is the ‘no self’ any more real than the ‘self’?

Of course, 'blue sky' is just a pointer/concept towards this "no self". Words like 'there' and 'here' become meaningless, language insufficient, concepts inapporpiate. There is no 'self'...full stop. I can only vaguely point to this 'all-pervasive no-thing'.

Thank you, Fred
Rolly

[Freddi]

Thanks Rolly,
I will now invite other guides to take a look and see if we've missed anything ... There may or may not be further questions. I'll be in touch shortly.
Warm wishes,
Fred

[JimmyG]

Thank you for your consideration, Fred

Rolly

[Freddi]

Hi again, Rolly

Three other guides have now read our thread and there are no further questions.
I will send you a private message about what comes next, check your inbox!

Thank you for the opportunity and the pleasure of this exploration together.

Warm wishes,

Fred