Help me please . . .

[Sparsh]

What I do, perceive, think and feel depends on my conditioning. My conditioning depends on my experience. My experience depends on what others do. What others do depends on what they think and feel. What they think and feel depends on their conditioning. Their conditioning depends on their experience, their experience depends on others' deed, their deed depends on their thoughts and feelings . . . and so on and so forth . . . . . .

This insight is helping me. Here, I'm assuming 'me' and 'others' as entities, as I still experience ownership of experiences.

[smi]

Hi Sparsh,

What I do, perceive, think and feel depends on my conditioning. My conditioning depends on my experience. My experience depends on what others do. What others do depends on what they think and feel. What they think and feel depends on their conditioning. Their conditioning depends on their experience, their experience depends on others' deed, their deed depends on their thoughts and feelings . . . and so on and so forth . . . . . .

Ok, great. Notice how language assumes owner? How would you write down the same insight without using words “I”, “my” and “others”? Which is closer to actual experience?

This insight is helping me. Here, I'm assuming 'me' and 'others' as entities, as I still experience ownership of experiences.

That’s great that this helps. Here are few questions to help look into this issue of ownership. And please, look rather than think about it.

Ownership assumes an owner. So what is it that owns experience?
There are sensations… Is there an owner of sensations?
There are thoughts… Is there an owner of thoughts?
How would ownership of experience work?
Is there an expectation that this feeling of ownership shouldn’t exist anymore after realizing there is no separate entity called self?
Could it be that ownership is nothing more but a belief?
What is a belief?
How do you know when and what to believe?

Kind regards
Milan

[Sparsh]

What I do, perceive, think and feel depends on my conditioning. My conditioning depends on my experience. My experience depends on what others do. What others do depends on what they think and feel. What they think and feel depends on their conditioning. Their conditioning depends on their experience, their experience depends on others' deed, their deed depends on their thoughts and feelings . . . and so on and so forth . . . . . .

Ok, great. Notice how language assumes owner? How would you write down the same insight without using words “I”, “my” and “others”? Which is closer to actual experience?

Writing same insight without using 'I', 'my' and 'others':

Without 'I' and 'others', there is no personal conditioning. There are only impersonal experiences.
Experiences with ownership is what I experience. I'm able to think of 'I' as an experience like other experiences, but I'm unable to experience myself as an experience.

Ownership assumes an owner. So what is it that owns experience?

I could say 'I' own the experiences. But 'I' is only a label language taught me to take this body together with the sensations, thoughts, feelings and emotions as a separate entity.
Assuming 'I' is only a learned behavior.
But I have to remind myself time and again about this illusory 'I', else normally there is ownership.

There are sensations… Is there an owner of sensations?

I'm lying on my bed and there's a sensation of feeling of touch of my body on the bed. As soon as the attention goes to the sensation of touch, there is an automatic ownership by the illusory 'I'.

There are thoughts… Is there an owner of thoughts?

As with sensations, there is an automatic ownership when the thought comes up. I have to remind myself that 'I' is illusory. It's like there is this ingrained sense of ownership for thoughts, feelings and sensations.

How would ownership of experience work?

Ownership of experience would work like it is working for the vast majority of people.

Is there an expectation that this feeling of ownership shouldn’t exist anymore after realizing there is no separate entity called self?

Yes, there is this expectation.

Could it be that ownership is nothing more but a belief?

Yes, ownership is a belief - a conditioning put by society

What is a belief?

A belief is a conditioning - a thing taught by others or by our own perception.

How do you know when and what to believe?

I don't control when and what to believe Beliefs just manifest itself, even when unexpected.

[smi]

Hi Sparsh,

It seems we are getting closer and closer. At this point it is worth to drop any remaining desire to figure it out. That is just more “mind stuff”. All it takes is one clear look and the belief into separate self will drop away like a belief you once had about Santa, Tooth Fairy or any other imaginary character.

Sense of ownership or sense of self or a thought “I” or “me” are not what you are. All those are just spontaneous appearances like any other appearances. However that seems to be still a sticking point. Those appearances will not suddenly stop. They will continue to arise until they don’t. Waiting for them to stop will just feed them more. So, this sense of ownership or any other term you prefer will most likely not go away. However once you see that this sense is not what you are it doesn’t matter anymore if this sense goes away or not.
So as best you can drop expectation that this sense of ownership or sense of self should not be here.

An exercise:
Let’s focus on the sensation (sense of self/ownership). Sit with it, allow it. As you do, sitting with it, notice how it’s been named “self”. Notice how the label “self” chimes with the sensation.
Notice also that there another hidden notion. This notion is that the sensation + label “self” is you.
Become aware of this assumption.
Notice how the sensation + the label “me” + the notion that “this is me” work together to form an expression of the “I”.
Put the assumption to one side. Allow the sensation + label “me” to stay, but without the assumption.
Sit with that for 5/10 minutes. Allow space for it to exist AND not to be you.
Feel the space in and around.
Have a play…and share what you notice.

Another exercise:
Notice that sense of self is absent most of the time during the day. Whenever you are doing something that kind of “absorbs you”, this sense of self is simply not here. An easy way to verify this is to set an alarm to sound every hour and whenever alarm sounds simply look if sense of self is present or not. Most likely this sense of self will come up shortly after alarm sounds, but you can notice this.
Do this for a day or so. If you want you can set a shorter period for alarm - maybe every 30 minutes or so.

Have fun and kind regards
Milan

[Sparsh]

Sorry for not posting today. I'll do those exercises as I wake up, and post. Thanks a lot.

[smi]

Sure, no problem, take as long as you need.

[Sparsh]

An exercise:
Let’s focus on the sensation (sense of self/ownership). Sit with it, allow it. As you do, sitting with it, notice how it’s been named “self”. Notice how the label

“self” chimes with the sensation.
Notice also that there another hidden notion. This notion is that the sensation + label “self” is you.
Become aware of this assumption.
Notice how the sensation + the label “me” + the notion that “this is me” work together to form an expression of the “I”.
Put the assumption to one side. Allow the sensation + label “me” to stay, but without the assumption.
Sit with that for 5/10 minutes. Allow space for it to exist AND not to be you.
Feel the space in and around.
Have a play…and share what you notice.

Lying down, I'm focusing on the sensation of touch of my body on the bed. I can hear different kinds of sounds outside. There is a sense of ownership to these different sensations. Simultaneously, I'm getting lost in thoughts sometimes. Then I'm back to typing.
There is an ownership of the emotions arising from thoughts. I'm focusing on how the sensations and sense of ownership together gives the sense of 'I'.
Now I'm witnessing this sense of 'I'. Witnessing the sense of ownership arising from different sounds, voices and the sensation of body touching the bed.

Another exercise:
Notice that sense of self is absent most of the time during the day. Whenever you are doing something that kind of “absorbs you”, this sense of self is simply not here. An easy way to verify this is to set an alarm to sound every hour and whenever alarm sounds simply look if sense of self is present or not. Most likely this sense of self will come up shortly after alarm sounds, but you can notice this.
Do this for a day or so. If you want you can set a shorter period for alarm - maybe every 30 minutes or so.

Doing this exercise, as soon as the bell rang, I came back to awareness as the bell rang, at times I had lost awareness. But it didn't take time. I came back to awareness as soon as the bell rang.

[smi]

Hi Sparsh,

So far we have been investigating several aspects of identification so I think it would be good to ask some questions to verify if there are any more sticking points. There are quite a few questions here, but there is no need for very long answers. Short ones will do just as well, but please don’t answer from intellect but rather really look and simply describe what is experienced directly.

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’ and/or ‘witness’?
Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?
Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?
Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?
Does a sense of ownership point to or represent an actual ‘self’?
Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?
Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?
Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?
Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?
Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

Please, also feel free to share whatever you believe may still be a holdback or sticking point or anything else...

Kind regards
Milan

[Sparsh]

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’ and/or ‘witness’?
Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?
Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?
Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

The experience of 'self' is there. But I can't find the self.

What I do/control/ make decisions depends on what I think. What I think doesn't have a controller.
What thought comes up depends on what is perceived which in turn depends on conditioning. Conditioning
depends on previous conditioning. Conditioning cannot be found anywhere other than in thought. So thought that comes up depends on other thoughts. All boils down to the beliefs installed in childhood, and the beliefs that kept adding ever since. 'Self' is a part of belief installed in childhood.
All these things exist only in thought.

Does a sense of ownership point to or represent an actual ‘self’?

Sense of ownership only arises from the belief called 'self'.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

The only way the body is experienced is through tactile and kinesthetic sensations. The body is a label for these sensations.

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

The 'self' doesn't make the five body senses arise. The self only labels them.

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

The separate selves are illusory.

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

The ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication.

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

I see that 'I' am illusory. There is body with no owner, sensations, thoughts, feelings and emotions with no owner.
Yet, I feel very intense emotions when hurt or mocked.

[smi]

Hi Sparsh,

Great. Thanks for very clear answers. Do you feel there is still something missing and there is still searching going on?

If you compare how you see/feel now to how you felt maybe few weeks ago, what is the difference?

Yet, I feel very intense emotions when hurt or mocked.

Is it clear that this too is part of conditioning? Most likely this might begin to fall away gradually as you begin to recognize more and more transparency and emptiness of current conditioning. So, seeing through the illusory nature of self is very helpful and important step towards dissolving of that conditioning but not the final one.

Do you feel ready for some final questions or is there still anything that might be an issue for you to explore?

Kind regards
Milan

[Sparsh]

I need a day to ponder over these. Will post then. Thanks a lot.

[smi]

I'm looking forward to read your response...

[Sparsh]

Do you feel there is still something missing and there is still searching going on?

What I have seen so far:

The only way to be aware of the body is through tactile and kinesthetic sensations. If these sensations were extended to my laptop, I'd consider the laptop as my body. These sensations experienced at a particular area is labelled body.
The owner 'I' assumed for body,thoughts, feelings and emotions are illusory in that 'I' is a part of the beliefs installed during childhood. The beliefs that form the foundation for further conditioning and perception, thoughts, feelings and emotions, which accounts for even further conditioning and perception, thoughts, feelings and emotions determine a life story. As the life story boils down to the earliest conditioning causing further conditionings, perceptions, thoughts, feelings and emotions, life story is an illusion.

On looking directly, whatever I wrote earlier are just thoughts. It's just thoughts about thoughts about thoughts.

If you compare how you see/feel now to how you felt maybe few weeks ago, what is the difference?

I do still experience intense emotions, but overall, I'm feeling better than I used to feel weeks ago.

Do you feel ready for some final questions or is there still anything that might be an issue for you to explore?

I feel ready for the final questions.

[smi]

Hi Sparsh,

OK, I’m glad to hear you are ready. So here are final questions. As always, please answer from looking rather than from intellect. Take as long as you need. After you answer I’ll ask some other guides to have a look at your responses and maybe they’ll have some more questions or not.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?

Kind regards
Milan

[Sparsh]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

'I', 'me' or 'self' isn't there and has never been. The illusion of ownership of body arises from the sensations of 'touch' and 'movement'. Body is a labelling for these sensations, else there is no difference this body and a cow grazing in the field.
There is no ownership of thoughts, as what I think isn't in my control. What I think depends on what I have thought earlier, which in turn depends on thoughts thought earlier and so on, which is all a thought, ultimately. The thoughts determines the feelings and emotions experienced. The feelings and emotions experienced without preceding thoughts depend on the thoughts that come up regularly.
The body, thoughts, feelings and emotions have no owner and 'I' is just an experience like all other experiences.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of separate self is the illusion of ownership of body and/or thoughts, feelings and emotions. It is the illusion of 'me' being a separate entity in control of experiences.

A newly born child doesn't have the sense of 'I'. 'I' is a part of the beliefs installed during the childhood. Every succeeding experience is seen through the filter of this newly installed belief system, which determines the perception, which in turn determines thoughts, feelings and emotions, and also adds to the existing belief system. Same happens with every other succeeding experiences and ultimately forms a life story.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

I feel much lighter than I used to feel before the start of this dialogue. It's like the belief system (including the 'I' belief) has become aware that it is only a belief system.

My anxiety in social situations hasn't disappeared, but I'm getting much better.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

The primary motivation for me coming here, and looking, has been to end my anxiety in social situations.( I hope I got the question right).

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Decision, intension, choice and control depend ultimately on thoughts, feelings or conditioning (if the actions were not preceded by thoughts). Feelings depend on thoughts, thoughts depend on perception, and perception depends on conditioning. Conditioning depends on earlier conditioning which depend on earlier conditionings and so on, and ultimately boils down to the first conditioning installed in childhood.
As every thought we think depend on earliest conditioning, and further experiences and conditioning, there is no free will.
As there is no free will, I cannot be responsible for anything.

6) Anything to add?

I don't have anything to add.