Looking for a guide

[Paulo]

Hi Paul,

Thanks for letting me know, just remember to look at direct experience in the moment, you might even want to print out those questions and glance at them from time to time throughout the day so you can mull over them.

Thanks, Paulo.

[jupiter7]

Hi Paulo

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Through looking in the moment a self has not been found to exist. Thought and sensation continue to happen as they did before seeing that a self is not actually associated with them.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of self is when thoughts and sensations are taken to indicate the existence of an additional entity that is intimately associated with them, but which does not actually exist.

On reflection, it seems as though such a phenomenon typically begins in early childhood and gets stronger from there. In experience, the illusion of self appears to start in any moment that there is a looking from thought and sensation.

When this happens there is an experience in which the content of thought appears to be real. It is assumed that the content of thought is referencing an actually existing self and an actually existing reality.

When it is seen that the content of thought is not real, it is seen that the so-called self and its so-called reality are more like a fictional character and a made up story about what is happening.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days with some examples.

To see this involves direct experience which is more like looking at what is actually happpening rather than from the content of thought which is about what's happening. There can be a sense of relief in seeing this, a bit like when one awakes from a disturbing dream to find that none of the bad stuff that appeared to be happening was actually happening. There can be a sense of freedom from seeing that the 'self-story' does not define reality but only appears to.

Before beginning the dialogue, self-story was largely taken to be real. This same sort of experience can still happen and usually has done, but in moments of reflective thought previous 'chapters' of self-story can be seen not to be real, and in direct experience self-story is dispelled as the illusion it is.

For example, when chatting to somebody at work, there is a pause in the converstation and a noticing that there has been a looking from thought and sensation in which there are various story elements about the relationship between 'me' and the 'other person' (such as what me and the other are like, which is better, what is wanted/not wanted), then awareness shifts to what is actually happening which is the observable happenings of particular bodies standing in a particular place etc., and the seeing that the thoughts about the existence of selves and story were fictional.

For example, when at home alone there can be thinking about what may come to pass in the future and fluctuations in sensations such as those taken to be anxiety or excitement about that, then there is the realisation that that content is not actually happening and a distance in experience seems to open up between what was just imagined and what is now actual.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you see?

There are a few things I can recall that seemed to happen in connection with the arising of a clearer seeing. For example, considering the idea that a university doesn't exist, rather there is actually only a collection of buildings, people, activities etc.. This was seen as analagous to the non-existence of the self, and demonstrates how we can speak of the existence of something as a convention and for convenience and take such labelling to reference an actual existence. Examination of experience shows that thoughts and sensations (buildings and people) exist but that a self (university) to which they pertain does not.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

These are all illusory. When there is a looking from thought and sensation there is a taking of the content of thought to be actual. The content of thought references a self-story. In that self-story there is an entity that thinks, makes decisions, intends things, has free will, chooses, and controls experience. Thus, these are part of the fiction. In actuality there appears to be something more like just thoughts and sensations happening. There is only decision, etc. to the extent that there are thoughts that say I have decided, etc.

I don't know what makes things happpen. On reflection, the nature of thoughts that arise (in which there is a self that can make things happen), itself seems to have been influenced by a chain of previous happenings and thinking about happenings that stretches back to a point before there was even this body. Thus, in reflecting on experience there is not the finding of an entity that ever made anything happen. In direct experience there is the finding of thoughts and sensations but not that which makes them happen.

There is nothing that I am responsible for because I don't exist. Only a truly existent thing could be responsible for anything. Only a truly existent thing that itself was not brought about by another thing could be truly responsible for anything. Such a thing is not found.

For example, on reflection, it can be seen that there was no choosing of this body, it's parents, society, country, even planet, by this body or anything that is found to be associated with it.

For example, in experience, there can be thoughts that arise in relation to certain happenings such as 'I am clever', 'That was a bad thing for me to do', and there can be feelings such as what one might call pride or shame about these thoughts. In actual fact, even these thoughts and feelings of responsibility are just happening and there is nobody that can strictly be said to be responsible for having them, or if they do not occur, for not having them. There is no responsibility outside of the content of thought and and there is no actuality to anything within thought.

6) Anything to add?

Thank you.

Paul

[Paulo]

Thanks Paul,

The next step in this process is for me to share this thread with other guides to see if they have any further questions. I will keep you fully updated as this part of the process progresses.

Thank you so much for your commitment, and for posting daily with such honest and thorough responses.

Paulo.

[Paulo]

Hi Paul,

One of our guides has come back with an additional question for you -

Please describe the difference, including effects, between identification with “no-self” as a mental concept and the recognition or realization of it.

Thanks, Paulo.

[Paulo]

Hi Paul,

A question from another guide -

There is nothing that I am responsible for because I don't exist

Look in the moment - is there control over anything at all?

Paulo.

[jupiter7]

Hi Paulo

Look in the moment - is there control over anything at all?

There is thought that can think it has control, eg. ability to direct the body-mind along a particular course of action out of several that it thinks are possible, but thought does not seem to be able to choose what thoughts are arising as to the options that it thinks are available. These just seem to pop in there based on presently surrounding snesational stimuli or previously active thoughts.

Thought often precedes action and can create the illusion of control between thought (the controller) and the action (the controlled), but there is no process by which the arising of particular thoughts is controlled. Thus, thought itself is out of control, and so, therefore, are the actions of the body-mind which follow from it.

Paul

[Paulo]

Thanks for your response Paul,

Can you have a look at the question from the previous guide too -

Please describe the difference, including effects, between identification with “no-self” as a mental concept and the recognition or realization of it.

Paulo.

[jupiter7]

Hi Paulo

Thank you and the other guides for the further questioning which is helping me to get greater clarity on what no-self can be.

Please describe the difference, including effects, between identification with “no-self” as a mental concept and the recognition or realization of it.

Identification with no-self as a mental concept is where ideas of no-self are thought about wherin there is an 'I' that takes itself to be without a self (which is a contradicton in terms), whereas the recognition or realization of no-self is, in my experience, where there is an experience of looking at present experience including thought and a seeing that there is no self there.

The effects of thinking about oneself as no-self are limited in that, like any thought, such thoughts come and go and fail to escape their illusory nature leaving actual experience untouched. Effects are along the lines of any belief or thought one might have about oneself: there can be pleasant feelings or unpleasant feelings according to the content of the thought and the associated interpretation of feelings that arise. This happened before apparent seeing and continues after it.

The effects of recognising or realizing no-self seem to be of a different order. For example:

- feeling less anxious and more relaxed because it is seen that there is not a self that is responsible for anything, rather than feeling the weight of the world on ones shoulders including the effort to maintain a 'good' self.
- increasing moments of direct experience because it is seen that the content of thought is not real and it is therefore nonsensical to view things from that perspective.
- less of an urge to seek existential answers because a 'real answer' has actually been 'found'.
- sense of freedom from self-stories that were previously often debilitating because self and story was taken to be real and is now seen not to be.
- Sense of 'what now?' because previously preoccupational seeking has deintensified and perceived definitions of and limitations on what is possible are more diffuse.

Paul

[Paulo]

Thanks once again Paul,

I'll notify the other guides that you have responded to their questions, and will keep you updated.

Paulo.

[Paulo]

Hi Paul,

Our other guides have no further questions for you, and you will be receiving a PM from our admins shortly with details of what happens next.

A pleasure to work with you, and I wish you well on the rest of your journey.

Paulo.