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[yic17]

A few days ago, you were saying ‘in direct experience I suppose there is no difference. Both happen with thoughts and then action. Except in second way the thoughts are saying "I am telling myself to raise my hand". So it SEEMS like I am choosing to do it. But I can see how I may not actually be the one choosing those thoughts. They just arise.’

Which is true? Do thoughts lead to a different outcome, or do they comment and SEEM to lead to a different outcome? 
Can you see a tangible, verifiable cause and effect link between a thought and an action? 
Is that cause and effect link experienced or thought up?

During few days ago's situation, that may be the case. Today's case was different. I can definitely see thoughts having an effect on the outcome. Thoughts arise leads to other thoughts, leads to emotions/sensations, leads to decisions, leads to actions. Without those contents of thought, I wouldn't have been standing around in the living room "thinking", "deciding". The content of thoughts definitely had an effect on the actions. Though I do not claim those thoughts to be "my" thoughts. They just arise. Then lead to different movements of the body.

[Freddi]

Hi Ivan,

I can definitely see thoughts having an effect on the outcome.

That is the generally accepted conditioning, but can we truly say that a thought has a direct effect on an outcome, in other words does the thought have creative power over action?
Say I am about to go out, and I see an image of possible rain showers. The hand then grabs a rainproof jacket. The thought appears to inform, even to lead to the decision of what to wear, but let’s consider these questions:
1) Does the thought, the image, actually decide anything?
2) Is the cause and effect link tangible, verifiable, in direct experience, or is it a mental ‘joining of the dots’?

And, to come back to yesterday’s post:

The belief/story of "I" still feels pretty strong. I read in the Gateless Gatecrashers that once the core belief of "I" falls away all the other beliefs attached to it will fall quickly like a domino. I hope that is the case. Right now I can see the "I" as a belief/story but everything still pretty much feels the same.

Don’t take what you read in GG as the Bible. Trust only your direct experience. You are your only authority here.
For some, the whole illusion falls away at once, for most it seems to start with seeing through the illusion of the separate ‘I’, then after that all assumptions come up to be questioned, in the bright light of direct experience.
Conditioning, habitual thinking, like Rome, was not built in a day, so it is usually not unbuilt in a day either. That is why we at LU have a few support, aftercare groups, to which you will be invited at the end of this conversation, and where you will be able to ask further questions, discuss your experiences with others in the LU community, etc.

The belief/story of "I" still feels pretty strong … everything still pretty much feels the same

Can you describe that feeling, in your raw experience? How does it manifest? Is it another layer of thought? Is there a physical quality to it? Look (not in the content of thought) and tell me what you find.

I suppose there is no personal responsibility. But it is not yet very clear to me about the responsibility part. Maybe the mind hasn't caught up yet

That word ‘suppose’ makes it feel a bit like you are agreeing, but reluctantly. Is there some resistance there?
The question of responsibility is a big part of the illusion, because with it, out go the notions of guilt, blame etc.
Go gently with these, enquire, always question the assumptions that come up. To do this, bring them back to this moment, and see if they are true, corroborated by your here and now experience.

Warm wishes,

Fred

[yic17]

Hi Fred.

That is the generally accepted conditioning, but can we truly say that a thought has a direct effect on an outcome, in other words does the thought have creative power over action? Say I am about to go out, and I see an image of possible rain showers. The hand then grabs a rainproof jacket. The thought appears to inform, even to lead to the decision of what to wear, but let’s consider these questions: 

1) Does the thought, the image, actually decide anything?

I wouldn't say the thought or image "decides" anything. I see it more as thought and image are a flow from action. Action > Though > Image > Action. I just don't see thought to be completely separated from action. I see all of them as a flow. One happens, the next happens etc. That is not to say the thought or the image actually decide the outcome. They just lead to the outcome.

2) Is the cause and effect link tangible, verifiable, in direct experience, or is it a mental ‘joining of the dots’?

 

Maybe not "cause" and "effect" but more like simply a sequence of events/movements?

As for something tangible, I would say the fact that one happened after another is the link.

Don’t take what you read in GG as the Bible. Trust only your direct experience. You are your only authority here. For some, the whole illusion falls away at once, for most it seems to start with seeing through the illusion of the separate ‘I’, then after that all assumptions come up to be questioned, in the bright light of direct experience. 
Conditioning, habitual thinking, like Rome, was not built in a day, so it is usually not unbuilt in a day either. That is why we at LU have a few support, aftercare groups, to which you will be invited at the end of this conversation, and where you will be able to ask further questions, discuss your experiences with others in the LU community, etc.

 

Alright. =)

Can you describe that feeling, in your raw experience? How does it manifest? Is it another layer of thought? Is there a physical quality to it? Look (not in the content of thought) and tell me what you find.

 

Okay. Not really feeling. Just thoughts that pop up often.

That word ‘suppose’ makes it feel a bit like you are agreeing, but reluctantly. Is there some resistance there?

Definitely some resistance. Or more like simply not seeing it clearly yet.

Thanks.

[Freddi]

Hi Ivan,

As for something tangible, I would say the fact that one happened after another is the link.

Let’s take a current example. You are now reading these words, presumably because you received an email notifying you of my post.
Look directly into what is your here and now experience. It SEEMS like the notification email lead you to read these words now. However, if we look carefully and question that assumption, we see that the notification email is only a memory. It is only a thought. In truth, can we ever experience BOTH cause and effect, or consecutive events, or do we always rely on a memory to construct a link, in our mind? Does one or the other ‘event’ have to be conjecture?

Definitely some resistance. Or more like simply not seeing it clearly yet.

Can we turn our attention to this resistance? Now is as good a time as ever ;-)

First could you describe any physical manifestation of that resistance? If I tell you that there is no ‘Ivan’ in charge of ‘your’ Life, that there is no one to be in control of anything, what comes up physically?

Then could you let me know what the resistance says? What is the fear behind? Is it about loss of control?
For this you will need to go into the story, the content of whatever thought pops up.

Thanks!

Fred

[yic17]

Let’s take a current example. You are now reading these words, presumably because you received an email notifying you of my post.

Look directly into what is your here and now experience. It SEEMS like the notification email lead you to read these words now. However, if we look carefully and question that assumption, we see that the notification email is only a memory. It is only a thought. In truth, can we ever experience BOTH cause and effect, or consecutive events, or do we always rely on a memory to construct a link, in our mind? Does one or the other ‘event’ have to be conjecture?

Well, if you say it like that, then sure. I can see what you mean.

Can we turn our attention to this resistance? Now is as good a time as ever ;-)

First could you describe any physical manifestation of that resistance? If I tell you that there is no ‘Ivan’ in charge of ‘your’ Life, that there is no one to be in control of anything, what comes up physically? 

Then could you let me know what the resistance says? What is the fear behind? Is it about loss of control? 
For this you will need to go into the story, the content of whatever thought pops up.

 

There isn't any physical manifestation or resistance actually. It's simply the mind is not able to understand it clearly. I don't think my mind registers anything. It just goes "Okay. So what does that mean?" as if nothing happens. There is no strong resistance or fear. It is more just confusion, drawing a blank, or maybe disbelief - not able to comprehend the meaning of it.

[Freddi]

Hi Ivan,

It's simply the mind is not able to understand it clearly. I don't think my mind registers anything. It just goes "Okay. So what does that mean?

Would it be OK if the mind was never able to understand it clearly, if Truth was beyond it?
Is there a need for a meaning?

Warm wishes

Fred

[yic17]

Would it be OK if the mind was never able to understand it clearly, if Truth was beyond it?

 

Sure, it would be OK.

Is there a need for a meaning?

Nope.

[Freddi]

Thanks, Ivan

So, when you use the words 'I', 'me', 'self', what are you referring to, these days? Is there any reality behind these labels?

Warm wishes,

Fred

[yic17]

So, when you use the words 'I', 'me', 'self', what are you referring to, these days? Is there any reality behind these labels?

I refer to this body/mind character. There's just beliefs and stories behind these labels.

[Freddi]

Hi Ivan

1) Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

2) Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

3) Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

4) Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

5) Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations?

6) Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

7) Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

8) Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?

9) Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?

10) Would you say you have seen through the illusion of the separate self?

Warm wishes

Fred

[yic17]

1) Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Nope.

2) Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Nope.

3) Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Nope.

4) Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Nope.

5) Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations?

Nope.

6) Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

Nope.

7) Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

Not mentally. But reading these questions I get some resistance - some heavy sensations in the heart area. And some hesitation in answering them.

8) Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?

Nope.

9) Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?

Nope.

10) Would you say you have seen through the illusion of the separate self?

 

Still only intellectually/mentally. Not completely experientially. The mind understands mostly - but at the same time there are still doubts. I don't feel liberated or completely clear/certain yet ……

[Freddi]

Hi Ivan

Fred: Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations?
Ivan: Nope.

If the 'body' is not another thought label for various sensations, what is it?

Not completely experientially. The mind understands mostly - but at the same time there are still doubts. I don't feel liberated or completely clear/certain yet…

For a moment, step ouf of the mind stream, come back to the breath. Notice all that is happening around you.
Notice the seeing, the hearing, the smelling, the sensing, the touching. Is there anything missing?
Look around you and ask: what would it be like to experience the absence of self?
What would be different?
Stay with these questions for a while. Are we still in the presence of some expectation here?
What are you looking for that isn’t here, right now?

Thanks!

Fred

[yic17]

If the 'body' is not another thought label for various sensations, what is it?

 

Okay, trick question. I knew there would be one of these ….. =P

Well, I can see it as a label for various sensations. But there is also the "form" that is being seen with the eyes?

For a moment, step out of the mind stream, come back to the breath. Notice all that is happening around you. 
Notice the seeing, the hearing, the smelling, the sensing, the touching. Is there anything missing?

I guess not? Anything missing is only ideas, thoughts, stories …..

Look around you and ask: what would it be like to experience the absence of self?

 

Just being present. Experiencing the sensations. Seeing thoughts come and go.

What would be different?

Not attached to thoughts and stories I suppose …..

Stay with these questions for a while. Are we still in the presence of some expectation here?
What are you looking for that isn’t here, right now?

There are still doubts about if thoughts and movements truly all just happen on their own without anything consciously controlling them. I know we've done many exercises and I can't seem to find any conscious controller. But there are still doubts about it. It's like I am 50% convinced …..

I guess I am expecting to feel 100% connected to everything - one with everything. 100% convinced. Dropping all doubts and worries. Knowing 100% …..

[Freddi]

Hi Ivan,

Well, I can see it as a label for various sensations. But there is also the "form" that is being seen with the eyes?

Yes, with eyes open, we see a form that is referred to as ‘body’, and with eyes closed we see/feel/touch/smell various sensations we group together and call ‘body’.
Are ‘you’ the body?

Fred: Look around you and ask: what would it be like to experience the absence of self?
Ivan: Just being present. Experiencing the sensations. Seeing thoughts come and go

What of the above is NOT happening now? Are you not present? Are you not experiencing the sensations? Are you not seeing thoughts come and go?
I am not asking about memories, or yesterday or the next moment. These belong to what’s not happening. I am asking about now.

There are still doubts about if thoughts and movements truly all just happen on their own without anything consciously controlling them. It's like I am 50% convinced …..
I guess I am expecting to feel 100% connected to everything - one with everything. 100% convinced. Dropping all doubts and worries. Knowing 100% …..

That is an expectation script talking. Look. Where is it coming from? Is it any more than hearsay?
You have, so far in our investigation, not found a separate ‘I’. So the question I would like you most to consider is this: what is there that could or could not feel connected to everything? What is there to be convinced 100%?

Always bring these questions to the actuality of this moment. See if these assumptions are confirmed as true.
You see, Ivan, how would direct experience ever point to a separate ‘self’ if there is no such thing to be found? You have already seen this and indeed cannot not see it. Thoughts will still come and claim experience, try to make sense of it, own it. That is the nature of thought, and it won’t stop.
Ultimately I am not here to prove to you that there is no self, you have to prove to me that there is one. I am only pointing to the gate, 'you' have to go through it. You say you can’t find a ‘controller’, yet your thoughts tell you ‘not yet’. You are clinging on to some expectation about a different experience, a fiction. Thoughts tell a story about an ‘Ivan 50% convinced’, but I can’t see that. There is only clear seeing. 100% of the time.

You see, it is soooo simple that the mind can’t see it, make sense of it, and it overlooks it. Just for a moment, get out of your mind stream, and come to your senses. See, touch, feel, smell, listen. What is actually happening, right here and now? Isn’t it a permanent miracle? Just the smelling, the hearing, the seeing, the touching? Stay with it, it is a constant celebration.

Would now be a good time to admit and accept that WHAT IS is ALL THERE IS?

Warm wishes

Fred

[yic17]

Yes, with eyes open, we see a form that is referred to as ‘body’, and with eyes closed we see/feel/touch/smell various sensations we group together and call ‘body’. 
Are ‘you’ the body?

No. I am not.

What of the above is NOT happening now? Are you not present? Are you not experiencing the sensations? Are you not seeing thoughts come and go? 
I am not asking about memories, or yesterday or the next moment. These belong to what’s not happening. I am asking about now.

I am not understanding you here …..

That is an expectation script talking. Look. Where is it coming from? Is it any more than hearsay? 
You have, so far in our investigation, not found a separate ‘I’. So the question I would like you most to consider is this: what is there that could or could not feel connected to everything? What is there to be convinced 100%?

Just thoughts and ideas I suppose.

Would now be a good time to admit and accept that WHAT IS is ALL THERE IS?

I don't know ….. Maybe?