Question

[AWH301]

Hi Tao,

I’m glad I asked, because this expectation has become strong with this process. Your reply has really thrown me back on my expectation about what I hoped would occur.

The process of this SEEing infiltrating thoughts so it is understood on a conceptual level does not happen in an instant, this process is continuous. From the story perspective, we could say it takes time after SEEing for understanding to align with what is seen.

So I just want to know if I’m understanding this correctly. The seeing may be intermittent as I approach it? From the story perspective. So the process is just to stay with seeing and looking directly? Somehow I feel as though I just stepped back to square one. I need to be more patient with myself. Easier on myself.

Recognition of reality, everything already is as it always is.

Feeling frustrated. Looking at the sensation/sensing of frustration. Who is having frustration. The sensation ebbs and flows in the chest. Disappears by itself.

Yes, my answers are good, but my expectation seems to outweigh the lightness of just looking. The assumption of what’s real is strong. The looking is very light. No weight to it.

Sorry! I feel like I’ve taken 5 steps back now. As I read your questions, my mind is really flustered. I’ll get back later as I look more. Perhaps tonight after work.

Allan

[AWH301]

Hi Tao,

Can you tell me, does the body or mind actually exist? Are these both just ideas?

I feel a bit tormented in my reply. In direct experience right now, as I’m typing, there is experience of a body. It is available to sensing, and is not an idea such as the ‘I’ assumed by the label of a self (which can’t be found). I am able to touch the body, see it, smell it. However, I know that I didn’t create it, and have nothing to do with it continuing, and that it does not exist statically and will not last.

The mind is less tangible, but there are still the generation of thoughts.

I understand from our previous discussion that there are a lot of assumptions about the body and mind (or all assumptions). However, I cannot say that they do not exist. I did not create them, and control over them is assumed. I feel baffled as to where to start again. I want to be 100% honest in my reply, but feel I have fallen back. It’s really got me wondering if I can make that leap to no self so radically. Obviously, though, the ‘someone making a leap’ is in question.

Dropping back from the assumptions and experience of ‘body’, there’s a more open space and the body looks hollow from there. This openness is more restful and relaxed. The boundaries of body and mind are more vague from there.

I think I may need your advice at this point.

Thanks,
Allan

[Tao]

Hi Allan

So I just want to know if I’m understanding this correctly. The seeing may be intermittent as I approach it? From the story perspective. So the process is just to stay with seeing and looking directly? Somehow I feel as though I just stepped back to square one. I need to be more patient with myself. Easier on myself.

You don't need to do anything, nothing actually takes time, time is imagined. How could you step backwards, what is it that steps backwards? Always go to direct experience for an answer.

Feeling frustrated. Looking at the sensation/sensing of frustration. Who is having frustration. The sensation ebbs and flows in the chest. Disappears by itself.

Yes, my answers are good, but my expectation seems to outweigh the lightness of just looking. The assumption of what’s real is strong. The looking is very light. No weight to it.

So let's go a little further with SEEing.

What is frustrated? - What is it that defines it as frustration? So these sensations are labelled as frustration, then something must be frustrated. Again, is anything contracted around? Is anything getting worked up or confused. Don't assume that nothing is there, when the sensations arise, find what it is that gets frustrated. Describe to me what is happening here.

Is there anything incomplete about SEEing? Is there anything imperfect about THIS? Is anything unclear about THIS?

Is anything really intermittent?

It's funny how thoughts set up this story about what they imagine will happen. Interesting to see what appears when the foundations are pulled away from the fantasy structure. Yet all just appearances, happening to no-one what-so-ever.

Yet THIS is always untouched, unharmed, unmoved. THIS has never changed and never changes. Appearances come and go. To WHO do they mean anything to?

Who is it that has to DO anything?

What is the 'problem' and to whom is it a problem?

I feel a bit tormented in my reply. In direct experience right now, as I’m typing, there is experience of a body. It is available to sensing, and is not an idea such as the ‘I’ assumed by the label of a self (which can’t be found). I am able to touch the body, see it, smell it. However, I know that I didn’t create it, and have nothing to do with it continuing, and that it does not exist statically and will not last.

The mind is less tangible, but there are still the generation of thoughts.

I understand from our previous discussion that there are a lot of assumptions about the body and mind (or all assumptions). However, I cannot say that they do not exist. I did not create them, and control over them is assumed. I feel baffled as to where to start again. I want to be 100% honest in my reply, but feel I have fallen back. It’s really got me wondering if I can make that leap to no self so radically. Obviously, though, the ‘someone making a leap’ is in question.

yes the someone making a leap is a story. Just pure thought fluff. The someone falling backwards, or taking a step backwards, or someone needing to do something to get forwards, it's all imagined, by no-one at all.

I used the word assumption a lot. Now we take this seeing further.

So what is it that is doing the assuming? What is it that can believe things?

Dropping back from the assumptions and experience of ‘body’, there’s a more open space and the body looks hollow from there. This openness is more restful and relaxed. The boundaries of body and mind are more vague from there.

Close your eyes and take awareness into the body. Find the boundaries, between body and world, between body and mind.

Are there any boundaries? From here, is 'body' anything more that a thought/idea? Where is the body, where are the boundaries that make up the body?

What defines 'mind'?

Body and mind are just imagined. Can they be found in DE? If so, where are they? What do they arise as.

Tao

[AWH301]

Hi Tao, My partner and I are preparing to leave for the weekend in a couple of hours. It's going to be a full weekend, and since I'll only be using my phone, it may be difficult for me to respond in any length. However, I plan to check this conversation and to let you know that I'm still with the process. It will probably be Monday night before I'm back to use a computer again.

Last night I explored the depth of space a little more to examine the 'I' more. At one point it seemed to open up by itself to the edge of fear that maybe it was too deep.

This morning I've been using the 'technique' found on LU to use verbs without using I, 'walking', 'feeling', 'thinking', 'talking', etc. It's very helpful to not automatically evoke the 'me' thought.

Allan

[AWH301]

Sorry! I missed your last post. Somehow I missed the mechanics of page 1 and 2 of the blog system. I've emailed your last post to myself so I can access it easily on the drive. I will continue to stay with the conversation even if I can't get into detail with my replies until getting home on Monday night. I'm really appreciating this, and in spite of "feeling set back', something is alive for the first time on 30 plus years. It's really wonderful! Just amazing! Astonishing in one week to go from the same old usual, to a living process.
Thank you! Allan

[Tao]

Hi Allan,

No problem, reply when you can

Tao

[AWH301]

Thank you.just checking in. I have been Reading over your last reply about seeing and take it into consideration.
Allan

[AWH301]

Still here. Will get back to the questions tomorrow afternoon. Thanks!

[AWH301]

You don't need to do anything, nothing actually takes time, time is imagined. How could you step backwards, what is it that steps backwards? Always go to direct experience for an answer.

The mind imagines stepping backwards. Imagines it has fallen backwards since it can’t actually control the situation and get to the ‘goal’ it is seeking.

What is frustrated? - What is it that defines it as frustration? So these sensations are labelled as frustration, then something must be frustrated. Again, is anything contracted around? Is anything getting worked up or confused. Don't assume that nothing is there, when the sensations arise, find what it is that gets frustrated. Describe to me what is happening here.

The mind feels frustrated. The intensity of coming back to the dialog. There’s a sense of intensification and pressure, frustration to find an answer. But still the seeing and noticing go on as always. Not affected.

Is there anything incomplete about SEEing? Is there anything imperfect about THIS? Is anything unclear about THIS?

The seeing is just there. The seeing notices the experiencing whatever it is. It doesn’t waver from the experience even if the experience includes ‘me’ being uncomfortable or feeling unwell. Since there is no control over anything, it just notices, and things go on.

So what is it that is doing the assuming? What is it that can believe things?

The assuming is part of the story. I have not been able to find a believer within the story. It just seems like it’s there, though that seeming is not constant. Only the seeing and noticing are constant.

Close your eyes and take awareness into the body. Find the boundaries, between body and world, between body and mind. Are there any boundaries? From here, is 'body' anything more that a thought/idea? Where is the body, where are the boundaries that make up the body?

The seeing and noticing are unaffected by the story of events unfolding. Seeing and noticing are the only things remaining constant. Even if I take things to be solid and real in the flow of the story, they pass from experience as in a dream. The dreams come and go in the story. Waking events and then sleep and dream events and objects. I can’t find boundaries between mind and body, body and world. The appearance or thought of boundaries pass on in the story. I’m not able to find anyone who sees and notices.
Allan

[Tao]

Hi Allan,

The mind imagines stepping backwards. Imagines it has fallen backwards since it can’t actually control the situation and get to the ‘goal’ it is seeking.

So can you confirm if anything falls backwards? Also, I know I have used the term, 'thoughts imagine things' quite a lot, a concession to the dualistic nature of language, but let's look a little closer:

Can thoughts imagine anything? Can thoughts do anything? Or is 'imagining' just what thoughts are?

Are thoughts and feelings confined within something called mind? Is there any reality to the word mind? and again looking at the mind - is there a 'thing', energetic, subtle, whatever qualities it may have, called mind?

The mind feels frustrated. The intensity of coming back to the dialog. There’s a sense of intensification and pressure, frustration to find an answer. But still the seeing and noticing go on as always. Not affected.

So what if there isn't an answer, any answer? 'Question' and 'Answer' are both thought constructs, concepts, ideas. What can answer what? Just more thoughts, more concepts, more ideas.

What does the word 'answer' even mean? 'Something gets resolved, a trouble, a query'.

In DE - is anything unresolved?

The seeing is just there. The seeing notices the experiencing whatever it is. It doesn’t waver from the experience even if the experience includes ‘me’ being uncomfortable or feeling unwell. Since there is no control over anything, it just notices, and things go on.

So there is the SEEing, let's call that awareness, and there is experiencing. So here we have a subject-object relationship between awareness and experiencing.

In Direct experience, is there a subject-object relationship whatsoever, anywhere to be found? Is awareness different or separate from experiencing?

The assuming is part of the story. I have not been able to find a believer within the story. It just seems like it’s there, though that seeming is not constant. Only the seeing and noticing are constant.

Great, so what you are saying here is that seeing/noticing is ever present, yet the 'appearance' that there is a believer comes and goes, right?

What is it exactly that makes it seem like there is a believer, what gives that appearance? Please describe from DE.

The seeing and noticing are unaffected by the story of events unfolding. Seeing and noticing are the only things remaining constant. Even if I take things to be solid and real in the flow of the story, they pass from experience as in a dream. The dreams come and go in the story. Waking events and then sleep and dream events and objects. I can’t find boundaries between mind and body, body and world. The appearance or thought of boundaries pass on in the story. I’m not able to find anyone who sees and notices.

Good, just a few things to clarify here.

You saying seeing and noticing, are these two different things?

Can you actually take things to be solid and real?

Does the story itself have boundaries?

Tao

[AWH301]

Hi Tao,

So can you confirm if anything falls backwards? Also, I know I have used the term, 'thoughts imagine things' quite a lot, a concession to the dualistic nature of language, but let's look a little closer: Can thoughts imagine anything? Can thoughts do anything? Or is 'imagining' just what thoughts are? Are thoughts and feelings confined within something called mind? Is there any reality to the word mind? and again looking at the mind - is there a 'thing', energetic, subtle, whatever qualities it may have, called mind?

There is no actual falling back. There is just seeing and the openness of awareness. Experiences appear within awareness. Thoughts can take no action including imagining. Thoughts and feeling are not confined to a ‘mind’. ‘Mind’ is a label for thoughts arising. I can’t find a thing which is a mind. When looking with DE, there is only the looking. The assumed mind cannot be found.

So what if there isn't an answer, any answer? 'Question' and 'Answer' are both thought constructs, concepts, ideas. What can answer what? Just more thoughts, more concepts, more ideas. What does the word 'answer' even mean? 'Something gets resolved, a trouble, a query'. In DE - is anything unresolved?

Yes. There is just relief in awareness in not finding an answer. The story as it determines itself in looking. I checked several of my own situations in DE regarding resolution. In direct experience there is no regard for resolution. The concern for unresolved situations appears in the story arising.

So there is the SEEing, let's call that awareness, and there is experiencing. So here we have a subject-object relationship between awareness and experiencing. In Direct experience, is there a subject-object relationship whatsoever, anywhere to be found? Is awareness different or separate from experiencing?

No. With eyes closed in direct experiencing, all the borders are indistinct and fluctuating. With eyes open the view is constantly shifting. Just the mind assumes that things are static. The thoughts in mind are constantly shifting. The sensations in the body are always changing. Only the mind can assume something is still. Seeing/awareness seems to be the only constant. The subject-object relationship also changes. Sometimes it is noticed. Other times not. It seems to change with sleep and dreams, so it is not steady.

Great, so what you are saying here is that seeing/noticing is ever present, yet the 'appearance' that there is a believer comes and goes, right? What is it exactly that makes it seem like there is a believer, what gives that appearance? Please describe from DE.

Yes. I’m using seeing, noticing as the same thing. They include sensing through all the senses. What appears to the senses. And yes, the appearance of a believer comes and goes, and is not constant. Just like the subject-object relationship. The flow of events makes it seem like there is a believer, who believes he is separate, and needs to take action in the scheme of the appearances. There does not seem to be a mechanism other than as part of the story. The awareness does not seem to care if the story, the believer, the subject-object relationships are there or not.

Can you actually take things to be solid and real? Does the story itself have boundaries?

The mind and assumptions of the story take things to be solid and real, but even easy observation and questioning negates the solidity, reality and boundaries of things and the story as passing and transitory.

Allan

[Tao]

Hi Allan,

Thank you for your answers. Here are a few more questions for you:

Is there anything awareness doesn't know? In other words, is anything unknown?

Is there anything that awareness needs in order to be fuller or more expanded in some way?

Can the separate self thoughts that seek resolution ever get resolved? What would resolve them?

Is there a 'me' anywhere in the flow of events? Is there anything separate or distinct, any 'thing' within the flow of events?

Is the flow of events separate from awareness? Can awareness be affected by the flow of events in anyway?

Is there anything you feel unsure of at this stage?

Tao

[AWH301]

Hi Tao,

Hi Allan,

Is there anything awareness doesn't know? In other words, is anything unknown?

Awareness seems to have the capacity to know that whatever appears to it exists.

Is there anything that awareness needs in order to be fuller or more expanded in some way?

No. The only need for expansion and fullness is in thoughts and ideas.

Can the separate self thoughts that seek resolution ever get resolved? What would resolve them?

No. Since the self-thought is an idea or label it doesn’t need to be resolved.

Is there a 'me' anywhere in the flow of events? Is there anything separate or distinct, any 'thing' within the flow of events?

There is no ‘me’ except in thoughts/labels.

Is the flow of events separate from awareness? Can awareness be affected by the flow of events in anyway?

No. the flow of events is not separate from awareness. Awareness is the only constant in life.

Is there anything you feel unsure of at this stage?

Does the mind need to be convinced of no ‘self’, no ‘I’? I feel like I can use seeing, but something is refusing to be convinced of no self. Something doesn’t want to be convinced of this. That this can’t be what it is. Also, my use of seeing seems a bit fragile, like it will just stop once this conversation is done.
Even though I used the LU resources when could during my weekend away, when I came back from my weekend, as I returned to the conversation with you, something really amped up.
When I check with direct seeing, the mind doesn’t want to relinquish control.
The mind is also afraid that I can’t see this for myself. Somehow it wants to be shown. In my past endeavors with other groups, something in me expects something to happen by proximity to the ‘group’, or the ‘one’ the teacher. I don’t trust that this can happen for me with my own ‘seeing’ capacity.
There’s a sensation of disappointment. The expectation is high that there would be some revelation of ‘no self’ that would be more obvious. More freeing.

Thanks,
Allan

[AWH301]

I feel crushed that this life cannot ever be real. My expectation is that it is real, in spite of never really having liked it too much. In the direct experience that I can muster in this moment, the world looks false. The heart doesn’t want to believe it and really dislikes it. It’s a bitter, heartbreaking truth to look at. I had a bitter love crush at 6 or 7. It seemed like it was destroying my world. There was nothing real left. That’s what this feels like, though there is no person at the center of it.
I really did think it would be much more of an ‘up’ experience to know this, but it’s really kind of awful. Just like the first heart break in love. I think my heart can only bear to feel this for a few moments at a time.
And now I’m giggling that this could be it. I feel like I’ve been tricked.

[AWH301]

and I don't mean tricked by you. I mean tricked by life.