requesting a guide

[Petrus]

Hi Kathanna,

Do you think thoughts or do thoughts think you? I think that thoughts think me. (thought) Haha

It definately is a good idea to laugh about this whole thing, haha!

Sofar I only see, you believed your thoughts too much. But on the other hand: that is exactly what everybody is doing. The good part of it is: that is why it is so simple to see through it: it is thoughts only!

Thoughts are fine, nothing wrong with thoughts, even "I"-thoughts. As long as you dont believe the content.
It is important to be able to distinguish between the actual experience and the arising thoughts and mental images that are trying to interpret and assign meaning to the experience.
Here is someone explaining it in a short movie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XB2Itt5KQU8

Thank you for continuing to question my stubborn mind!

So what/who is having a stubborn mind here? It is a thought thinking it, but is the thought really having it?

And let us have the key question too:
Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Warm regards, Petrus.

[kathanna]

Hi Petrus,

I read your post earlier today and also a couple of articles from the website..one about emptiness teachings, which was very familiar from Buddhist studies. Later watched the video you mentioned.

It is important to be able to distinguish between the actual experience and the arising thoughts and mental images that are trying to interpret and assign meaning to the experience.

From the time I got up this morning I realized that I was noticing experiences and labeling them…hearing, seeing, feeling. As I drove to get groceries, I continued to notice everything in a more direct way rather than daydreaming or listening to a recorded book or being caught up in some mental issue. It was not something I tried to do at first but it was just going on and I realized at some point that I was experiencing more than having thoughts until I had the thought that I was experiencing. Then of course it became more a conscious process to begin to label what was happening without interjecting the 'I'. When I was in the store and had to make decisions and compare prices, etc. the mind totally took over to get the job done in the most familiar way.

So what/who is having a stubborn mind here? It is a thought thinking it, but is the thought really having it?

There is no stubborn mind. Just layers of thought obscuring the truth and a hidden thought that is being afraid of the 'I' dying and therefore resisting even though the foremost thought is wanting to see through the illusion of separate self.

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

I know there isn't, but somehow the nonexistent 'self' keeps hanging around.

[Petrus]

Hi Kathanna,

I was experiencing more than having thoughts until I had the thought that I was experiencing

What you mean with "more than"?
And then the thougtht you were experiencing stopped the whole thing, haha

The mind totally took over to get the job done in the most familiar way.

Thats whats it for isnt it, to get the groceries?

Just layers of thought obscuring the truth

There is no layers of thoughts, just one thought at a time. There being layers is a thought. Can you check that?

..a hidden thought that is being afraid of the 'I' dying

When you say it, its already not hidden anymore, haha. Fear is a natural thing.
There will be no dying here. The only thing that can happen is that you will see this I is only in thoughts too!
If the fear persists please tell me...

I know there isn't, but somehow the nonexistent 'self' keeps hanging around.

Can you locate it? Can you tell if it has a form?

Warm regards, Peter

[Petrus]

I want to add:
It is a good thing you are doing: noticing experiences and labeling them!
When you experience thinking, you maybe can distinguish between the label thought with "I" and thought without an "I"?

[kathanna]

Hi Petrus,

What you mean with "more than"?

I just meant that I was having fewer thoughts and more experiencing.

There is no layers of thoughts, just one thought at a time. There being layers is a thought. Can you check that?

Yes, one thought at a time but sometimes so many in succession on the same topic that there is a a whole story that evolves as a result and it seems like layers to peel off. (thought) Seeing only one thought at a time is much more manageable!

Can you locate it? Can you tell if it has a form?

The form is the remembered history and the imagined future of this body/mind. A collection of thoughts.

[Petrus]

So what you call "I" is thoughts only?

[kathanna]

I don't know! I can't locate a self anywhere but I am still writing and have a body and can think and feel. I think I'm trying to figure it out rather than experiencing. When I have experienced extreme openness so that there seemed a merging of some part of "me" with others…a kind of communication without words, I might have thought self was that aliveness without real location, although it was also felt in and around but bigger than the body. The body and mind do not disappear when they are seen to be empty of self nature. (thought) But I do not know what that experience is.

[Petrus]

Hi Kathanna,

I don't know!

To start saying I dont know is beautiful!
Dont believe the thoughts anymore and start looking! In real looking lies the answer.
And once in a while you simply dont know!

I can't locate a self anywhere

Very good!

...but I am still writing

Where exactly is this I, that is writing? In your fingers?
If you cant locate it, how do you know it is there?

...and have a body

So who or what is having this body, where is the owner?
What is this body anyway? A pile of sensations interpreted as something real, wasnt that true?

...and can think and feel.

Can YOU think? Or is there thinking? Can YOU feel? Or is there feeling?

The body and mind do not disappear when they are seen to be empty of self nature.

No indeed, and if they would, that would be extremely inconvenient to live...
But without a separated I it is very easy to live!
...
Are you familiar with the comparison between Santa and the separate I ?
After you heard the news that Santa did not exist, you still would see people dressed like Santa, but you never would believe again he is for real or that he ever was.

Aside: I wonder, what thoughts and feelings coming up during this conversation?

Warm regards, Petrus

[kathanna]

Hi Petrus,

Bodily sensations were much more noticed today and I noticed that thought was secondary to label or explain. I was watching a movie and the action was very intense and my entire body was reacting and for a moment it was just sensation no connected to any reason. Also ordinary thoughts were easy not to believe, especially ones that might lead to irritation and comment. So there was less friction, more attentiveness. Actions were happening and I was looking to see if "I" was "deciding" to do things and it seemed that there was no self deciding anything. The day simply went along without a plan. Not a total shift in perception, but getting more used to the idea that Santa is not real. Actually just noticing the difference the idea of no separate self can make, even without the full experience. I seem to be asking myself questions, or noticing sensations or thoughts most of my waking life!

[Petrus]

Concentrate on the thoughts which (believe they) have an I as subject. You can refrase them easily without one.

Now and then check if you can find an I.

[kathanna]

I wonder, what thoughts and feelings coming up during this conversation?

There was a feeling of lightness or relief on reading your message, especially the following lines. Somehow a flash of realization of how the whole thing works, some momentary lack of need to try so hard. An energetic softening and expansion in the chest and spreading through the body.

Kathanna:The body and mind do not disappear when they are seen to be empty of self nature.

No indeed, and if they would, that would be extremely inconvenient to live...
But without a separated I it is very easy to live!

Concentrate on the thoughts which (believe they) have an I as subject. You can refrase them easily without one.

Now and then check if you can find an I.

When a disturbing thought comes, such as "My husband d left a pile of dirty dishes by his chair where he watches football!…again! Emotion can follow, with all manner of meaning attached culminating with "I" can't live with this anymore and planning an escape to a new life! Basically, it is just a thought and it is followed by other thoughts that are less dramatic, more practical or even contradicting the emotion of that thought that caught the attention of the "I". Not believing and getting stuck in the content of thoughts, knowing they are just thoughts and letting them go is like meditation in action. But no one is choosing to let the thoughts go. There is no investment in the thought or need to justify it because it is "mine." Consequently, life seems very ordinary and it is easier to "live and let live", not needing to change anything.

I followed a link on this website and watched a short BBC video that showed a man having a brain scan that showed that there is a part of the brain is aware of what a person's choice will be 6 seconds before he believes he "chooses". Interesting. Personal choice is an illusion.

There is no "self" that is separate from sensation and action… no cause initiating action. This feels true although there is a thought that it is more concept than revelation because there is no obvious shift in perception.

There is no separated "I" as director within a body. Knowing this, or remembering it over and over, seems to affect behavior in a positive way.

What about no "self" that is separate from Everything?

[Petrus]

Hi Kathanna,

Personal choice is an illusion.

Yes, it is.

There is no "self" that is separate from sensation and action… no cause initiating action. This feels true although there is a thought that it is more concept than revelation because there is no obvious shift in perception.

A thought says it is a concept. Ok, does that make it true?

What shift are you expecting?

This whole endeavor is not about a process, but it is about a instantaneous insight.
The insight that every reference to "I" that is used, is a reference to something imaginary.
It is done all the time, and all the time it is not true! To really see this without comment is all there is to do.

For some this will be with fireworks, but for most it is just the incredible shift from thinking from a center called "I" to living from NO center.

No guarantees for fireworks, no guarantees for a better live, especially no guarantees your husband will do the dishes one day, haha, although even that could happen also!
But is is not the focus. The focus is: Is there an I that wants a change?
If this I is imaginary it never ever can happen. Do you understand? That is why personal improvement is so hard, because it is based on a false assumption.

Warm regards, Petrus

[kathanna]

What shift are you expecting?

ust the incredible shift from thinking from a center called "I" to living from NO center.

That is the shift I am expecting. I don't know how to go from believing there is no separate self, having been taught it for years and "understanding it intellectually... to "groking" it, actually experiencing living from no center.

Is there an I that wants a change?

Obviously, the only change necessary would be to live in the space of No Self and all would be well. There would be no I to be dissatisfied and wanting to change things or if changes wanted to happen they could without the I in the way.

But yes, "I" am frustrated because "I" can't SEE!!

[Petrus]

Thank you a lot Kathanna!

It is so very good to feel you want it so much.
That is the only way to go there...here... where you are alraedy!

That is the shift I am expecting. I don't know how to go from believing there is no separate self, having been taught it for years and "understanding it intellectually... to "groking" it, actually experiencing living from no center.

So, first stop the believing. Believing is thinking. Thinking isnt it. Agree?
...
So what is left when there is no believe in what thinking just imagines?
Where is the center you say you are living from?
Living with no center is what remains if you leave out the thinking.

Obviously, the only change necessary would be to live in the space of No Self and all would be well.

No Self, means no self. I already asked it, but where do you locate this I or self? If you cant find it, why you cant settle with there being no one?
So why looking for a space of No Self while you already cant find a self, already are there where you want and only have to kick out the idea of a separate self? Not even kick out! It is not there! You tell me where it is...

There would be no I to be dissatisfied and wanting to change things or if changes wanted to happen they could without the I in the way.

So tell me, where is this I that is dissatisfied?
Show me where your chains are! Can you?

But yes, "I" am frustrated because "I" can't SEE!!

Great! I see the image you standing in the desert with your sunglasses on.
I cant see. Help me. Haha. Sorry. Haha again.
Are there 2 I's here? One is frustrated, one says it cant see?
Or is there only seeing: now there is frustration, now there is "I cant SEE!".

There will be no end to suffering but an end to illusion.
There is no separate Kathanna.

Very warm regards, Petrus

[kathanna]

Hi Petrus,

It seems so long since I have been able to write. Life is happening. I write a bit and get interrupted.

So, first stop the believing. Believing is thinking. Thinking isnt it. Agree?
...

Yes, Agree!

So what is left when there is no believe in what thinking just imagines?

Nothing is left. Emptiness and possibility. Thinking imagines something not real because it is not experienced directly, so to not believe that would be more useful because it might allow space for DE to occur.

Where is the center you say you are living from?

In the mind.

Living with no center is what remains if you leave out the thinking.

Yes. Do thoughts actually stop? Or only change? Arising from where? Without needing an author?

No Self, means no self. I already asked it, but where do you locate this I or self? If you cant find it, why you cant settle with there being no one?
So why looking for a space of No Self while you already cant find a self, already are there where you want and only have to kick out the idea of a separate self? Not even kick out! It is not there! You tell me where it is...

There is an illusion of self trying to be important, to matter. A thought of kathanna, a story and a whole "reality" that supports a "feeling" of being solid, even with evidence to the contrary. What do I do with all that stuff besides just not take it seriously ?

When I think of a change in perception as a result of realizing there is no separate self, I expect to know something so certainly that there is no possibility of going back. I say there is no self, that I can't find a location for a self, but keep acting as if the "I" is real, just as always.

By contrast, for an example; Many years ago I read some words in a book about the suffering of animals being used by humans. This resonated with childhood experiences that I had been unable to fully comprehend or act on at the time. The truth was indisputable and I knew that, for one thing, I would never see what some call "food" in the same way. My perception changed instantaneously and simultaneously my actions also changed. I could not see dead animals on a plate as anything except sadness, and suffering, and cruelty. The smell of burning flesh was horrifying. There was and is no separation in my experience between the death of a person or the death of a cow or pig. I am aware every day of a holocaust occurring, unnoticed by most other people. This was a permanent change of perception that is impossible to un-see.

It seems that "knowing" there is no self should be that clear…as you said before, not a process but an instantaneous insight. (thought) I don't know how that flash of insight happens.

Is the "I" unwilling to stop seeking? (thought)

Or is there only seeing: now there is frustration, now there is "I cant SEE!".

"There will be no end to suffering but an end to illusion. " I like that. (thought)

Warm regards to you,
Kathanna