Ready for Awakening!!!

[Freddi]

Hi Ivan,

Okay. It seems like without thoughts, it is automatic. But I feel like I can "choose" the thought and then the thought leads to the action. I suppose we are here to find out how this thought arising is not my choice or that this choosing is an illusion

Consider these questions for a while. Go somewhere quiet and sit with them, meditate on them. Don’t reply too quickly.
1. You see that the decision/choice is automatic, then you see a thought that comments and says, for example ‘I am raising my hand’. In direct experience, is there any difference in what is actually happening, either way?
2. Does the thought of the conscious controller actually do the choosing, or does it comment on what appears as a choice? Can a thought actually decide anything?
3. Can a thought ‘I am choosing …’ actually effect anything?
4. Is there a tangible, verifiable cause and effect link between a thought that says ‘I choose’ and the raising of the hand, or whatever decision? Or is that cause and effect link ALSO a thought, an assumption?
5. Where is this ‘conscious controller that can choose thoughts that lead to an action’? Does it have any physicality? Can it be directly experienced? Or is it also a thought? Can a thought choose a thought that would lead to an action? Can you verify these links?

The idea that I don't have conscious control over my body or thoughts is a little scary by the way …

Thank you for that honesty. Now we know that there is a little bit of fear attached to the loss of the idea of this controlling entity called ‘I’, ‘Ivan’ etc.
When you have stayed with the above questions and looked into them, we’ll investigate that fear.

Thanks!

Fred

[yic17]

Hi Fred.

1. You see that the decision/choice is automatic, then you see a thought that comments and says, for example ‘I am raising my hand’. In direct experience, is there any difference in what is actually happening, either way?

In first way when I read the text and then do the exercise, in direct experience it goes: Reading (Thoughts in mind) > Action (Raise Hand).

Second way when I try to consciously raise my hand, in direct experience it goes: Thoughts in mind > Action (Raise Hand).

So in direct experience I suppose there is no difference. Both happen with thoughts and then action. Except in second way the thoughts are saying "I am telling myself to raise my hand". So it SEEMS like I am choosing to do it. But I can see how I may not actually be the one choosing those thoughts. They just arise.

2. Does the thought of the conscious controller actually do the choosing, or does it comment on what appears as a choice? Can a thought actually decide anything?

Yes, I can see how it is only commenting while the choice is being made. It seems like the choice and the thought appear at the same time. So without the thought/comment, the choice is being made anyway.

No, a thought doesn't actually decide anything. I can have the thought "red pen" and pick up the "black pen" instead.

3. Can a thought ‘I am choosing …’ actually effect anything?

 

Seems like it cannot.

4. Is there a tangible, verifiable cause and effect link between a thought that says ‘I choose’ and the raising of the hand, or whatever decision? Or is that cause and effect link ALSO a thought, an assumption?

Seems like there is not.

5. Where is this ‘conscious controller that can choose thoughts that lead to an action’? Does it have any physicality? Can it be directly experienced? Or is it also a thought? Can a thought choose a thought that would lead to an action? Can you verify these links?

No it does not have any physicality. It cannot be directly experienced either.

I am not sure if it is just a thought. It feels like an awareness/presence where thoughts arise from. But I am open to the possibility that there is actually no "I" or anything to control it. I suppose there is some resistance with this idea. I am really just not sure at this point .....

[Freddi]

Hi Ivan,

So in direct experience I suppose there is no difference. Both happen with thoughts and then action. Except in second way the thoughts are saying "I am telling myself to raise my hand". So it SEEMS like I am choosing to do it. But I can see how I may not actually be the one choosing those thoughts. They just arise.

Thanks for that clarity, Ivan. Yes, it SEEMS like you are choosing. That is the difference. What ‘seems’ is not necessarily true …

Yes, I can see how it is only commenting while the choice is being made. It seems like the choice and the thought appear at the same time. So without the thought/comment, the choice is being made anyway.

Yes! The apparent choice takes place, whether or not there is a commentary that says ‘I choose this or that’.
When you next watch a favourite sport, on Youtube or whatever, do this exercise: turn the commentator voice off for a while and see what happens. Does the game stop? Does it become all chaotic? Then turn it back on. The commentator may wish for the score to change, but do any words he says change anything at all?

The idea that I don't have conscious control over my body or thoughts is a little scary by the way … I suppose there is some resistance with this idea. I am really just not sure at this point .....

Noticing this resistance, this sensation of fear is a great opportunity to explore it, invite it to the table.
Let’s go and investigate that dark cave.
What comes up when it is read that there is no character called ‘Ivan’ at all in reality, not in any way shape or form, there never has been an ‘Ivan’, nor is there now, nor will there ever be. There is only life moving freely, without any general manager called ‘Ivan’.
Welcome whatever sensation comes up like a long lost relative at the door. Let it speak to you and see what it wants to tell you.
What is behind this fear? Is it protecting something? Would it be OK if liberation did not change anything at all?
Stay with this for a while, and let me know what comes up. We are looking at what is happening right now, in your most immediate and intimate experience.

Warm wishes,

Fred

[yic17]

Hi Fred.

Yes! The apparent choice takes place, whether or not there is a commentary that says ‘I choose this or that’. When you next watch a favourite sport, on Youtube or whatever, do this exercise: turn the commentator voice off for a while and see what happens. Does the game stop? Does it become all chaotic? Then turn it back on. The commentator may wish for the score to change, but do any words he says change anything at all?

The commentary certainly doesn't affect anything. =)

What comes up when it is read that there is no character called ‘Ivan’ at all in reality, not in any way shape or form, there never has been an ‘Ivan’, nor is there now, nor will there ever be. There is only life moving freely, without any general manager called ‘Ivan’.

Welcome whatever sensation comes up like a long lost relative at the door. Let it speak to you and see what it wants to tell you. 

What is behind this fear? Is it protecting something? Would it be OK if liberation did not change anything at all? 
Stay with this for a while, and let me know what comes up. We are looking at what is happening right now, in your most immediate and intimate experience.

 

Originally the fear was caused by the thoughts like "If I am not in control of my body and thoughts, then who is? How can I trust it? Where's me?" I know they are just thoughts. And then there is resistance with the idea that there is no "controller" or at least a "watcher" - someone behind it all witnessing everything. I have thoughts like "If I am not the controller of my body and thoughts, at least I am watching/witnessing it all right?" Right now there's not much fear if any except this "resistance" that I must be "something".


As for the liberation part, certainly "something" still wants things to change. It's still saying "I don't feel free and I want to be free." There is still desire of wanting to be free, wanting to feel free. It's okay if nothing changes physically. But it still feels incomplete/empty and desires freedom.

[Freddi]

Hi Ivan,

And then there is resistance with the idea that there is no "controller" or at least a "watcher" - someone behind it all witnessing everything. I have thoughts like "If I am not the controller of my body and thoughts, at least I am watching/witnessing it all right?" Right now there's not much fear if any except this "resistance" that I must be "something".

Stay with the feeling of resistance, of fear. Don't overlook it, don’t resist the resistance, turn it into curiosity.
What if I tell you that the absence of a controller, and even a ‘watcher’ is not an idea, it is a fact. It is the other way around, it is the presence of a controller or watcher that is an idea.
Ultimately, Ivan, we are not here to prove to you that there is no self, you have to prove to us that there is one. So far I am not seeing that.
Now what comes up? Can you look into that resistance to clear seeing and let me know what you find?
Does that resistance have any physical manifestation? Maybe a contraction, a furrowed brow, an upset stomach, anything? Or is it a thought or a stream of thoughts? Describe not what you think, i.e. not the content of thought (that is storyfying), but what you SEE.

As for the liberation part, certainly "something" still wants things to change. It's still saying "I don't feel free and I want to be free." There is still desire of wanting to be free, wanting to feel free. It's okay if nothing changes physically. But it still feels incomplete/empty and desires freedom.

Go and sit somewhere quiet and consider these questions for a while, let these infuse and respond from direct experience only (I don't want to hear from Mr Thinky):
1. What is it that wants things to change? Can you see any separate entity there that can do this?
2. What is it that is saying ‘I don’t feel free’?
3. What is it that wants to be free?
4. What feels incomplete and desires freedom?

Warm wishes,

Fred

[yic17]

Now what comes up? Can you look into that resistance to clear seeing and let me know what you find? 
Does that resistance have any physical manifestation? Maybe a contraction, a furrowed brow, an upset stomach, anything? Or is it a thought or a stream of thoughts? Describe not what you think, i.e. not the content of thought (that is storyfying), but what you SEE.

Okay. The "resistance" can very much just be thoughts/stories.

There is simply an awareness/consciousness. But it does not have to be "me".

1. What is it that wants things to change? Can you see any separate entity there that can do this?

There's definitely thoughts and stories. As for a separate entity that "wants" change, nope.

2. What is it that is saying ‘I don’t feel free’?

Thoughts and stories.

3. What is it that wants to be free?

Again, thoughts and stories.

4. What feels incomplete and desires freedom?

 

Only thoughts and stories.

[Freddi]

Hi Ivan,

There is simply an awareness/consciousness. But it does not have to be "me".

Let’s dig into this ‘awareness/consciousness’ concept. How does it manifest, in your direct experience? Are there some tangible, verifiable qualities to it? Is it a sense of aliveness? Does that make it ‘me’, ‘you’ or anyone else’s?

Again, thoughts and stories.

So you are telling me that, when you look for that separate entity that says ‘I don’t feel free’, that feels incomplete and desires freedom, you see only thoughts and stories?
What tangible, verifiable reality do these thoughts and stories have? What do they point to, in actuality?
In your raw, first-hand experience, can you see a separate ‘me’ that could be awake or not? Is that a fiction too?

Thanks!

Fred

[yic17]

Let’s dig into this ‘awareness/consciousness’ concept. How does it manifest, in your direct experience? Are there some tangible, verifiable qualities to it? Is it a sense of aliveness? Does that make it ‘me’, ‘you’ or anyone else’s?

Sure, you can say a sense of aliveness. And no, it does not belong to anyone. It just is.

So you are telling me that, when you look for that separate entity that says ‘I don’t feel free’, that feels incomplete and desires freedom, you see only thoughts and stories?

 

Yes. Without thoughts and stories, there's just sensations. And without giving the sensations any meanings, they are just sensations. The sensations are not saying its incomplete or it desires freedom.

What tangible, verifiable reality do these thoughts and stories have? What do they point to, in actuality?

They don't point to anything.

Well, the arising of these thoughts and stories can then be followed by a contracting sensation in the heart area. But without the thoughts and stories, this contracting sensation is just a sensation. As I said above, the sensation is not "desiring" to be free.

In your raw, first-hand experience, can you see a separate ‘me’ that could be awake or not? Is that a fiction too?

Nope. There are only thoughts and sensations. Is this it?

[Freddi]

Hi Ivan,

Is this it?

You tell me ;-) … It is soooo simple that the mind overlooks it.
1) With no tangible ‘I’ that can be asleep or awake, or indeed in charge of anything, what is left?
2) What do you see? Sure thoughts may comment on what’s happening, but do they change anything?
3) With no one in charge, how does Life unfold? Is there any personal responsibility?

I would like you to do some observations in the next few hours. Look specifically at apparent decision-making events, always staying with direct experience.
You may look at the selection of what to eat or what to wear in the morning, or which route to take to go somewhere. Look at what is happening, in real time, how the apparent choice unfolds, and report to me, in your own words and your own time.
1) Is there a separate ‘I’ that chooses?
2) What factors are taken into account? These may be some preferences, some conditioned patterns or triggers etc.
3) Can you see a choice point, a location of choosing?

Thanks!

Fred

[yic17]

Hi Fred.

1) With no tangible ‘I’ that can be asleep or awake, or indeed in charge of anything, what is left?

 

Just everything arising and disappearing. Sensations, emotions, and thoughts.

2) What do you see? Sure thoughts may comment on what’s happening, but do they change anything?

 

Same as above. Sensations, emotions, and thoughts. Well, I still see that content of thoughts lead to different actions. But I can also see how thoughts just arise. There is no "I" that chooses them.

3) With no one in charge, how does Life unfold? Is there any personal responsibility?

 

Life just unfolds. I suppose there is no personal responsibility. But it is not yet very clear to me about the responsibility part. Maybe the mind hasn't caught up yet.

I am not sure I am "seeing clearly" yet. More like I am seeing half and half now. The belief/story of "I" still feels pretty strong. I read in the Gateless Gatecrashers that once the core belief of "I" falls away all the other beliefs attached to it will fall quickly like a domino. I hope that is the case. Right now I can see the "I" as a belief/story but everything still pretty much feels the same. Maybe feels *a little* lighter, not as attached to things, and aware of sensations more than before.

I would like you to do some observations in the next few hours. Look specifically at apparent decision-making events, always staying with direct experience. 

You may look at the selection of what to eat or what to wear in the morning, or which route to take to go somewhere. Look at what is happening, in real time, how the apparent choice unfolds, and report to me, in your own words and your own time.

1) Is there a separate ‘I’ that chooses?

No, there isn't.

2) What factors are taken into account? These may be some preferences, some conditioned patterns or triggers etc.

Sure, there are preferences. Emotion of desire for certain things arise leading me towards them. Yeah, I can see conditioned patterns and triggers as well - like at what time I decide to grab lunch etc.

3) Can you see a choice point, a location of choosing?

I am not sure. Seems like awareness shifting from here to there and keeps going.

Thanks.

[Freddi]

Thanks Ivan

Could you give me a detailed example of looking at an apparent decision-making event in your everyday life? Describe in as many details as you like.
Thanks!

Fred

[yic17]

Could you give me a detailed example of looking at an apparent decision-making event in your everyday life? Describe in as many details as you like.

 

Okay. For dinner I was deciding if I want to go out to eat or just eat at home. I was thinking about what I would want to eat if I go out. I thought about a few different restaurants - images pop up in my head. But then a thought came saying I ate out yesterday so maybe I should stay home for today. And so I decided to stay home. So yeah, all happened through thoughts basically.

If you mean "looking" as in not looking into the contents of the thoughts. Then basically I was standing in my living room, walked back and forth a bit. Thoughts came up, more thought, more thoughts. Once the decision was made through thoughts, thoughts stopped. I walked to the refrigerator and grabbed some food. That's all.

[Freddi]

Hi Ivan,

So yeah, all happened through thoughts basically.

1) Do thoughts decide?
2) Is there a thinker of these thoughts?
3) Is there an entity that does the choosing?

Thanks!

Fred

[yic17]

1) Do thoughts decide?

 

Thoughts definitely affect the outcome, leads to different actions.

Two pens, black and red. Without thought, the decision is made automatically. Whichever pen doesn't matter.

But when the thought comes "Pick the one to write with", then the decision goes to the black pen since I use the red pen for highlighting.

2) Is there a thinker of these thoughts?

 

I would say no, they just arise.

But my mind is still uncertain. It is not 100%. It seems like that's the case but there are still doubts.

3) Is there an entity that does the choosing?

None that can be directly experienced.

[Freddi]

Hi Ivan

Thoughts definitely affect the outcome, leads to different actions.

A few days ago, you were saying ‘in direct experience I suppose there is no difference. Both happen with thoughts and then action. Except in second way the thoughts are saying "I am telling myself to raise my hand". So it SEEMS like I am choosing to do it. But I can see how I may not actually be the one choosing those thoughts. They just arise.’
Which is true? Do thoughts lead to a different outcome, or do they comment and SEEM to lead to a different outcome?
Can you see a tangible, verifiable cause and effect link between a thought and an action?
Is that cause and effect link experienced or thought up?

Thanks!

Fred