Seeking Guidance

[Vivien]

Dear Mike,

You’re doing very well :)

there are thoughts regarding I

and

if certain thoughts come up and another thought thinks

and

The actual experience is objects appearing and seen,drilling down there is a white background with black letters(all labels) which thought then remembers.

Can a thought read?
Can a thought think?
“which thought then remembers” – Can a thought remember?
Can a thought do anything?

Or are these just contents of arising thoughts that are not seen only as thoughts, but rather they are believed?

All this is happening in what we label as awareness.

With which of the 5 senses is awareness experience?
Is there REALLY a ‘thing’ that the label ‘awareness’ point to?
Or is this just the content of another thought believed?

But being as it is seen that there is no one thinking the thought then there is also no one to take ownership of the body.

Very good LOOKing.

So how the hell is the knowing of what the contrasts between black and white mean in label or thought forms.

Is there REALLY a ‘thing’ that knows, or just knowing happens by itself, without an owner or doer?
How can I even know that I was ever a child and taught all that my thoughts are saying about how all this works, Holy Shit!

This is a very good looking :)

Let’s have a deeper look on thoughts. Sit for about 15 minutes and investigate these questions:

Where thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can a thought be stopped in the middle?
Can it be predict what will be the next thought?
Can it be chosen not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Can a ‘thing’ be found that generates thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Is there a ‘thing’ that controls thoughts?
Is there a 'thing’ that has ownership of thoughts?
What do the thoughts belong to? What owns them?

Do ‘you’ think thoughts or ‘you’ are just being thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

Please go through these questions and answer ALL of them one-by-one. Don’t miss any. I’ve asked a lot of questions, so take your time.

Love, Vivien

[Sleepwalker]

Can a thought read?
Can a thought think?
“which thought then remembers” – Can a thought remember?
Can a thought do anything?

Or are these just contents of arising thoughts that are not seen only as thoughts, but rather they are believed?

Thought cannot read, A though cannot remember, poor choice of words,a thought can do nothing but appear in awareness.

Or are these just contents of arising thoughts that are not seen only as thoughts, but rather they are believed?

Yes the above are just contents of thought, however in some cases bodily sensation and/or action does have a strange way of seeming to follow some thoughts.

With which of the 5 senses is awareness experience?
Is there REALLY a ‘thing’ that the label ‘awareness’ point to?
Or is this just the content of another thought believed?

You got me there. HA HA! Without self reference no awareness, just thought. This is getting fun!
Posting this now so as not to time out will move on the 15 minute observation and post that later. Thank You!

[Sleepwalker]

1)Where thoughts come from?
2)Where are they going?
3)Can a thought be stopped in the middle?
4)Can it be predict what will be the next thought?
5)Can it be chosen not to have painful or negative thoughts?

1)-Was going to say , Damned if "I" know, HAHAHA. Just there.
2)-Just disappear. Good word dis- appear. They appear and then they are gone.To who, if there is no i can there be an appearance? More circular thinking appearing out of nowhere to no one.Thought does not seem to be helping here, but how else to sort this out?
3) No, Thoughts are complete when they appear.
4)Absolutely not!
5)No!

[Vivien]

Dear Mike,

I wait with my respond until you reply to the remaining questions.
You’re doing well :)

Love, Vivien

[Sleepwalker]

What do the thoughts belong to? What owns them?[/quote]te="Vivien"]1)Can a ‘thing’ be found that generates thoughts?
2)Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience?
3) Can it be found?
4)Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?[/quote]
1) not by "me" HAHA. No!
2)Only as a thought.
3)Thoughts arise and disappear. cannot be lost or found
4)There is no I that thinks so how can it be just another thought :)

1)Is there a ‘thing’ that controls thoughts?
2)Is there a 'thing’ that has ownership of thoughts?
3)What do the thoughts belong to? What owns them?

1) No!
2)No!
3)Thought

1)Do ‘you’ think thoughts or ‘you’ are just being thought?
2)Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

1)No
2)NO

[Vivien]

Dear Mike,

You did a very good LOOKing :)

Yes the above are just contents of thought, however in some cases bodily sensation and/or action does have a strange way of seeming to follow some thoughts.

Yes, this is a good observation. When a thought is believed then associated emotions can arise. Or when a thought arise “I should go shopping and stop reading” then actions can follow the ‘suggestion’.

a thought can do nothing but appear in awareness.

Does this REALLY the case?
Do thoughts really appear IN or TO ‘awareness’?
Do thoughts really appear IN or TO anything?
Or this is just the content of another thought believed?

Here is an interesting exercise on control.

Choose one of your arms - It doesn't matter which.
When you have done that, rest for a moment and then when you want to, raise that arm into the air.
Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

What is controlling the arm?
Can a controlling ‘thing’ be located?

What moves the arm?

What is choosing which arm to raise?
Can you find the ‘thing’ that is doing the choosing?

How the decision is made which arm to raise?
How the decision is made when to raise the arm?

Love, Vivien

[Sleepwalker]

Mike said-a thought can do nothing but appear in awareness.

1)Does this REALLY the case?
2)Do thoughts really appear IN or TO ‘awareness’?
3)Do thoughts really appear IN or TO anything?
4)Or this is just the content of another thought believed?
Answers:
1)&2) Thoughts are not there , then they are,if there is no self the only thing that comes up as to how they appear, if not to awareness,would be to thought.Which would make sense if self was only a thought.
This thought just appeared, so if not into awareness or not to thought , then I',m stuck. Nothing more is presenting, other than physical senses.
3) No they are just there.I was tempted to say there and observed but not sure that observation can be experienced in DE, but realized the observed just is.
4)Yes

Here is an interesting exercise on control.

Choose one of your arms - It doesn't matter which.
When you have done that, rest for a moment and then when you want to, raise that arm into the air.
Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

What is controlling the arm?
Can a controlling ‘thing’ be located?
No

What moves the arm?
The arm just moves, period.

What is choosing which arm to raise?
Can you find the ‘thing’ that is doing the choosing?
No

How the decision is made which arm to raise?
No decision , the arm just moves, period.
How the decision is made when to raise the arm?
Love and appreciation, Mike

Love, Vivien

[Vivien]

Dear Mike,

Thoughts are not there , then they are,if there is no self the only thing that comes up as to how they appear, if not to awareness,would be to thought.Which would make sense if self was only a thought.
This thought just appeared, so if not into awareness or not to thought , then I',m stuck. Nothing more is presenting, other than physical senses.

Thought is based in language and language can be very confusing as it presumes a subject at all times. Does the habit of referring back to thoughts about ‘me’ indicate an entity, or a ‘driver’ of any kind in ‘reality’? Or have you merely accepted the apparent implication that language produces that that there must be both subject and object, so thoughts must appear to or in something? Go to the actual experience and check it.

You can observe whether there is a subject or not with this exercise on the body.

With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other 4 sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from the remaining four senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does it have a weight or a volume of the body?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there an inside or outside?
What is the body in the actual experience?

Love, Vivien

[Sleepwalker]

1)Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does it have a weight or a volume of the body?

2)Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

3)In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

4)Is there an inside or outside?
5)What is the body in the actual experience?

1) With eyes closed height or weight cannot be known.
2)With eyes closed no boundaries
3)WEC no shape or form
4)WEC no inside or outside
5)A myriad of sensations.
Thought occurs that the only catch with the above exercise is that we don't live our waking lives with the eyes closed. When opened different objects occupy different locations in space which make them appear separate, weight and volume are seen as made up concepts like money,part of consensus reality for convenience though.Inside and outside even with eyes open I see that is only a thought or concept as well, no way of saying where the one stops and the other begins.

[Vivien]

When opened different objects occupy different locations in space which make them appear separate, weight and volume are seen as made up concepts like money,part of consensus reality for convenience though.

Yes, this is a conventional reality and that’s all right.

Inside and outside even with eyes open I see that is only a thought or concept as well, no way of saying where the one stops and the other begins.

Beautiful seeing :)

Just consider…
Look in the mirror. See the image that is called ‘body’.

Was the ‘body’ that is seen in the mirror the one that was born on a certain date?
Or is the ‘body’ that is being seen in the mirror, different to the ‘body’ that was born on a certain date?

Other than this thought, how else is it known that the ‘body’ was born on that specific date?
Or is the thought the only link?
And because that thought is believed in, it is said to be 'reality', but is it really?

However, all it is just a thought appearing that is believed in?
Can you see this?

Can you see that “This body was born on xxxx” is simply a thought appearing that is believed in, and nothing more than that?

So, can this body have a past?
Or everything that is labelled as ‘past’ is just a mental story?

Other than contents of thought stories, is there a ‘past’?
Can time be experienced?

Love, Vivien

[Sleepwalker]

V)Was the ‘body’ that is seen in the mirror the one that was born on a certain date?
Or is the ‘body’ that is being seen in the mirror, different to the ‘body’ that was born on a certain date?
M)No

V)Other than this thought, how else is it known that the ‘body’ was born on that specific date?
Or is the thought the only link?
M)There is only the thought, which, I was going to say was implanted in memory by others around me , but that rings hollow. I got a wave of apprehension as a thought came up that not only is there no self, there is no other and all of this is some kind of dream.
V)And because that thought is believed in, it is said to be 'reality', but is it really?
M) Can't or maybe don't want to say. I don't know.

V)However, all it is just a thought appearing that is believed in?
Can you see this?
M) Yes clearly, just not sure how deep this can go without everything being an illusion.

V)Can you see that “This body was born on xxxx” is simply a thought appearing that is believed in, and nothing more than that?
M) Clearly , here and now i don't see how any one could not see that there is no way to verify that this body was ever even born, it just is or is not depending on what the truth is, if there is any truth.Which brings up an expectation I realized today which is , that there is always the hope of finding something to hang my hat on so I can feel as though I KNOW.

V)So, can this body have a past?
Or everything that is labelled as ‘past’ is just a mental story?
M)I have a pretty clear sense of no past, future or present . Only Now! Except for the sake of getting along conventionally. I always have to stop and think about what day and month it is, sometimes even the year but not often.

V)Other than contents of thought stories, is there a ‘past’?
Can time be experienced?
M) No.

[Vivien]

Dear Mike,

Nice looking :)

So, has it been clearly seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Do others have responsibilities?

Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?
Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?

Any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

Love, Vivien

[Sleepwalker]

So, has it been clearly seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

Yes.

Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Do others have responsibilities?

No/No

Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?
Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?

No

Any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

No. Other than to express gratitude! Love, Mike

[Vivien]

Dear Mike,

Vivien: So, has it been clearly seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

Mike: Yes.

I assume that the ‘yes’ refers to the first question, and ‘no’ for the second. But please correct me if I’m wrong.

Other than to express gratitude!

You’re very welcome :)

As a next step, there are further six questions to ask as part of this guiding process. The response is then shared with other guides. They may or may not have further questions.

Once it is confirmed by other guides that seeing through the illusion of the self has happened, our conversation in this thread will come to an end, however you won’t be left alone. There is a whole community of others on FB, who have also seen through the ‘self’. Actually, there are several groups to join.

Are you ready for the six questions?


Love, Vivien

[Sleepwalker]

I assume that the ‘yes’ refers to the first question, and ‘no’ for the second. But please correct me if I’m wrong.

Correct Assumption

Are you ready for the six questions?

Yes