A bit worried about this process.

[decoyplankton]

Hi Sarah,

So when you look or notice seeing can you find the seer, or the seen, or is it all part of seeing? Can you find a line where seeing ends and the seen starts? So you looked first at an object- yes? Now look at someone else. Try looking at your reflection in the mirror. Is everything seen on the screen of seeing?

No there is not a dividing line where seeing ends and the seen starts, there is just seeing. I tried the reflection in the mirror test and no, you're right, there is nothing else but what is on the screen of seeing. And it is just a screen, I get that. There is nothing more that can be experienced directly with seeing other than seeing. In other words I really can't be sure that other people see as I see, all I can do is theorise that they do, and that's just derived from thought and speculation. It may be correct, but I can never know or experience that for certain.

Now outside of thought and is there any separation? What says that can't be it? Would that be thought again?

Yes. Its just thought trying to inject doubt! It was just such an intense feeling of truth about the connectivity of everything. I have thought and heard about this before, but never experienced such certainty that it is true. It took me a bit by surprise and made me laugh because it seemed very simple yet very important and I had missed this before.

This doubt - Is it made up of thoughts? When those thoughts are not there what is the feeling then about what is happening? Is there a few thoughts creating a story about what Rich can and can't do? What power does thought have?

Totally made up of thought. When I don't get chance to look at stuff properly, or I can't grasp what you're trying to get me to look at, thoughts that I'm not cut out for this and I will fail arise. This gives rise to the frustration. Really, thought has no power. It is just a story , but sometimes I see this too late.

Take care,
Rich.

[Sarah7]

Hi Rich

No there is not a dividing line where seeing ends and the seen starts, there is just seeing. I tried the reflection in the mirror test and no, you're right, there is nothing else but what is on the screen of seeing. And it is just a screen, I get that. There is nothing more that can be experienced directly with seeing other than seeing. In other words I really can't be sure that other people see as I see, all I can do is theorise that they do, and that's just derived from thought and speculation. It may be correct, but I can never know or experience that for certain.

Sorry I couldn’t send below before – had a little break!
OK – now try staring a people – maybe sit on a bench and people watch – or out of the window – test again is there a seer, seeing and seen? Or just seeing? Again – we are not about replacing beliefs with new ones – we are about questioning EVERYTHING and looking at what is experienced! That’s it! I don’t know is a perfect answer! And outside of thought – is there even a question?

Stand in front of a bigger mirror. First, close the eyes and feel the sensations in the body. Then open the eyes and look into the mirror, while still pay attention to the bodily sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations in the body and the sight in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is any?
While still paying attention to the bodily sensations move one of the hands and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (in the hand) and sight of movement in the mirror?
Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror? Is there any connection between the felt sensations (in the hand) and sight of movement? Or only thoughts suggest it?
Now, pay attention only to the sight in the mirror. Does the sight by itself suggest in any way that what is seen is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the sight itself suggest in any way that what is seen is a body at all? Or there are only colours and shapes? Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the sight, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest it?
Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts). Is there a body anywhere when all mental concepts and images are ignored, or there are only sensations?
Start to walk slowly. Is there a body walking anywhere, or there are only sensations?

Yes. Its just thought trying to inject doubt! It was just such an intense feeling of truth about the connectivity of everything. I have thought and heard about this before, but never experienced such certainty that it is true. It took me a bit by surprise and made me laugh because it seemed very simple yet very important and I had missed this before.

Lovely! Did that certainty involve thought? Or none?
What missed this simplicity Rich? When thoughts are quiet and there is just being – what then?

Totally made up of thought. When I don't get chance to look at stuff properly, or I can't grasp what you're trying to get me to look at, thoughts that I'm not cut out for this and I will fail arise. This gives rise to the frustration. Really, thought has no power. It is just a story , but sometimes I see this too late.

No – not too late – you see it! Again and again you see it so :) It only matters to thoughts that it isn’t seen when they think it should be! Look! Can you see the little critters having a pop!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[decoyplankton]

Hi Sarah,

I've tried the mirror exercise but not yet done the people watching thing. I haven't been anywhere where I can give it a try. I'll have a go at it soon if I can find somewhere I can stare at people without being arrested ! LOL!

Anyway the mirror exercise was very interesting.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations in the body and the sight in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is any?

.

No I can't feel or find any tangible connection outside of thought. Its just a reflection, and if I look at it long enough even thoughts about it being me become unconvincing.

move one of the hands and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (in the hand) and sight of movement in the mirror?

No same again. Outside of thought there is no connection.

[quoteWhile still paying attention to the bodily sensations move one of the hands and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (in the hand) and sight of movement in the mirror?][/quote]

There is a more convincing story about connection when I move my hand, but outside that, there is no connection. It's just a hand moving!

Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror? Is there any connection between the felt sensations (in the hand) and sight of movement? Or only thoughts suggest it?

There is a stronger suggestion of connection by thought when I do this, but, if I ignore thought and become more intensely present so thought stops, then the hand doesn't seem like it's mine at all. It is just a hand moving around that doesn't belong to anyone.

Does the sight itself suggest in any way that what is seen is a body at all? Or there are only colours and shapes? Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the sight, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest it?

Again, if I quieten my thoughts, the body seems to not belong to me - it's just there.
There is no way to know that unseen parts of the body are actually there except for thought making images which explain the sensations in the unseen areas.

When I do the walking part of the exercise, there are thoughts suggesting that this is my body walking, but except for thought, there are only sensations. I can't know that there is anything there unless I look at it.

Lovely! Did that certainty involve thought? Or none?
What missed this simplicity Rich? When thoughts are quiet and there is just being – what then?

The certainty didn't involved thought at first. But thought came soon after to comment on it. It was more of a feeling than a thought. I suppose what missed it was thought. But then thought would miss something like that because it's something that can only be experienced when thoughts are quiet. So when thoughts are quiet, that oneness is seen but really it's always there.

Take care,
Will have a go at the people staring thing soon

Rich.

[Sarah7]

Hi Rich

There is a stronger suggestion of connection by thought when I do this, but, if I ignore thought and become more intensely present so thought stops, then the hand doesn't seem like it's mine at all. It is just a hand moving around that doesn't belong to anyone.

Some fabulous looking and noticing here! Have a look during the day when remembering happens at how thoughts continuously put the ‘me’ picture together or reinforce. And just to check – did ‘you’ quieten or stop the thoughts?

The certainty didn't involved thought at first. But thought came soon after to comment on it. It was more of a feeling than a thought. I suppose what missed it was thought. But then thought would miss something like that because it's something that can only be experienced when thoughts are quiet. So when thoughts are quiet, that oneness is seen but really it's always there.

Lovely! See if you can locate it at different times during the day. And get back to me without being arrested with people watching!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[decoyplankton]

Hi Sarah,

I've been trying out the people watching thing quite a bit during the past couple of days . I can say that I haven't found a seer, and there is no separation between the seen and seeing. There is only seeing. There is something that recognises that seeing is happening however. But I don't know what this is.

I also seem to be much more aware of body sensation after doing the mirror exercise but it doesn't feel like the body belongs to a "me". This isn't the case all the time just when I notice sensations going on.

And just to check – did ‘you’ quieten or stop the thoughts?

.

No. It happens kind of automatically when awareness is more in the present. I can't stop thoughts exactly, but I find that if awareness is centred on the present moment, then thoughts do not arise in such a torrent. There are long spaces between one thought and the next. Sometimes I can keep this up for a while, sometimes only briefly. I don't know why.


I've also been trying to get the feeling of oneness to happen again, but it doesn't seem to be that keen to come back! Perhaps it's not something that can be summoned at will or I'm trying to force it! Anyway I'll keep looking for it. Don't know if it's important but it was kind of nice. But experiences come and go I suppose.

Take care

Rich

[Sarah7]

Hi Rich

There is something that recognises that seeing is happening however. But I don't know what this is.

Is that something there always?

I also seem to be much more aware of body sensation after doing the mirror exercise but it doesn't feel like the body belongs to a "me". This isn't the case all the time just when I notice sensations going on.

Lovely. No arrest I presume!

No. It happens kind of automatically when awareness is more in the present. I can't stop thoughts exactly, but I find that if awareness is centred on the present moment, then thoughts do not arise in such a torrent. There are long spaces between one thought and the next. Sometimes I can keep this up for a while, sometimes only briefly. I don't know why.

Is there a you in here that has control over thought stopping – either partially or totally? Or is that just a thought that you can?

I've also been trying to get the feeling of oneness to happen again, but it doesn't seem to be that keen to come back! Perhaps it's not something that can be summoned at will or I'm trying to force it! Anyway I'll keep looking for it. Don't know if it's important but it was kind of nice. But experiences come and go I suppose.

Who or what can bring on this oneness? What happens when you don’t try! Is the idea of oneness an issue at all? What wants here? Is there a thought in the background stomping its little feet around going ‘I want that oneness back now!’
But look ...................... what notices all of this?
If oneness is - how did you ever leave it? Except in thought that is?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[decoyplankton]

Hi Sarah,

Lovely. No arrest I presume!

No, I got off with a caution after a lengthy car chase !! :-)

Is that something there always?

I don't know for sure that it's there always, but when attention is paid to seeing, it's there then. It's just that attention isn't always right there to witness seeing happening. I don't know if it's possible to go about my day being conscious that seeing is happening in that way, if you know what I mean. I have to be quite still (mentally) to get that level of awareness, and I find I'm not able to do that except when I set aside time to actually do just that.

Is there a you in here that has control over thought stopping – either partially or totally? Or is that just a thought that you can?

Its not any kind of control. It must be just the nature of thought. I think I said a while ago that I found thought doesn't seem to like the present very much. It likes to mostly obsess over the past, or try to predict the future. So when attention is in the present, thought has nothing to say about it. That must be when I notice thought being quieter. (Or something notices that !)

Who or what can bring on this oneness? What happens when you don’t try! Is the idea of oneness an issue at all? What wants here? Is there a thought in the background stomping its little feet around going ‘I want that oneness back now!’
But look ...................... what notices all of this?
If oneness is - how did you ever leave it? Except in thought that is?

You're absolutely right about all of this. It's not an issue at all except to thought. When you say "if oneness is, how did you ever leave it" , well I've never left it have I? The problem is that thoughts of me have set up a separation between me and oneness. I recognise this, but I only see it truly on rare occasions. So the oneness is always there but I have to find a way to see it always. A bit tricky for me at the moment. It's a bit weird that thought seems to want the feeling of oneness back also, but the full realisation of that may be not what thought wants at all. If you see what I mean.

Take care,

Rich.

[Sarah7]

Hi Rich

When you say "if oneness is, how did you ever leave it" , well I've never left it have I? The problem is that thoughts of me have set up a separation between me and oneness. I recognise this, but I only see it truly on rare occasions. So the oneness is always there but I have to find a way to see it always.

So :) when it is noticed. Test this through your day – have a little look – is it there? Go back to the breath, go back to sensations, go back to listening and seeing………is it there?

It's a bit weird that thought seems to want the feeling of oneness back also, but the full realisation of that may be not what thought wants at all. If you see what I mean.

Cana thought think? Can a thought know anything? E.g. is water actually water? What can a thought ‘know’?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[decoyplankton]

Hi Sarah,

So :) when it is noticed. Test this through your day – have a little look – is it there? Go back to the breath, go back to sensations, go back to listening and seeing………is it there?

Yes it's there. It isn't the intense experience I had before, but it's there. A kind of knowing feeling that's hard to describe, humming away in the background.

Cana thought think? Can a thought know anything? E.g. is water actually water? What can a thought ‘know’?

Thoughts don't actually know, think, or have an opinion on anything. They seem to be just commentary after the fact, mixed up with memory references and future projections which are also based pretty much on memory. So if 'I' am just another thought, then what wants if thought doesn't have the ability to want?

I'm trying to see what wants and I can't get it. The closest I can get is that thoughts are just kind of echoes of what is or what has been. They keep getting regenerated because it gives some kind of comfort or familiarity. But to what our who? If I is a thought then why would a thought need to be comforted?

I read in one of the other threads on LU - thinking of an apple it's fairly easy to see that this is just a thought, the apple thought doesn't mean there is really an apple here. So thinking of ' me' or 'I' it should be just as easy to see that that's just a thought too. It makes complete sense to think about, but I can't seem to actually see it as reality.

How did you get through this Sarah?

Take care,
Rich

[Sarah7]

Hi Rich

Yes it's there. It isn't the intense experience I had before, but it's there. A kind of knowing feeling that's hard to describe, humming away in the background.

And is it seen that thought is just another arising in that? Seeing happens, hearing happens, sensation happens and thoughts happen. Each a reflection across the mirror. Is there a wanting of that same intense experience? Is that a thought? Or is there a story attached?

Thoughts don't actually know, think, or have an opinion on anything. They seem to be just commentary after the fact, mixed up with memory references and future projections which are also based pretty much on memory. So if 'I' am just another thought, then what wants if thought doesn't have the ability to want?

Well – lets look at ‘want’. What gave it meaning? What labeled it? What added a story to it?
Can you sit with the feeling of want and watch all that arise? If all that was stripped back – what is ‘want’?

I'm trying to see what wants and I can't get it. The closest I can get is that thoughts are just kind of echoes of what is or what has been. They keep getting regenerated because it gives some kind of comfort or familiarity. But to what our who? If I is a thought then why would a thought need to be comforted?

Good question – what says it does? What spins you round and round with its blah blah blah…..?

I read in one of the other threads on LU - thinking of an apple it's fairly easy to see that this is just a thought, the apple thought doesn't mean there is really an apple here. So thinking of ' me' or 'I' it should be just as easy to see that that's just a thought too. It makes complete sense to think about, but I can't seem to actually see it as reality.

Well – onion peeling Rich – one layer at a time! This has been thought into existence for so long! Reinforced at every opportunity – one step at a time! OK. Also be aware of expectations created by - well they got it and I didnt, or why hasnt that happened to me...etc.

How did you get through this Sarah?

17 pages of onion peeling! LOL
Hugs Sarah xxx

[decoyplankton]

Hi Sarah,

And is it seen that thought is just another arising in that? Seeing happens, hearing happens, sensation happens and thoughts happen. Each a reflection across the mirror. Is there a wanting of that same intense experience? Is that a thought? Or is there a story attached?

Yes. Thought is just another thing arising out of just being. It isn't invoked by a me. Same with hearing seeing and sensation, they are just there. There isn't anyone or anything making them happen, they just are. I think the wanting of the intense experience is just a story. A memory of something that happened.

Can you sit with the feeling of want and watch all that arise? If all that was stripped back – what is ‘want’?

I've done this and surprisingly it didn't take long to see that want is just a thought. A way for thought to get away from what's here now and start looking for something 'better', or a past experience that was enjoyed. Anything it seems but the present moment!

Good question – what says it does? What spins you round and round with its blah blah blah…..?

Yes. I see what you mean. That's just another story. Thought doesn't need comfort. It doesn't or can't need anything. It has no requirements it just likes to make up stuff. It doesn't seem to mind if it's believed or not, it just keeps going. That's just what it does. That's probably all it can do!

onion peeling Rich – one layer at a time!

OK. I'll stop torturing myself with my own impatience. And I'll look out for expectations created by looking at other people's experiences. But is it OK to take a look at how other people are doing? Sometimes it gives me a new angle to explore that I hadn't previously considered.

I thing I've got a few bags of onions to get through yet!

Take care

Rich

[Sarah7]

Hi Rich

Can you sit with the feeling of want and watch all that arise? If all that was stripped back – what is ‘want’?

I've done this and surprisingly it didn't take long to see that want is just a thought. A way for thought to get away from what's here now and start looking for something 'better', or a past experience that was enjoyed. Anything it seems but the present moment!

And does ‘want’ vanish or is it seen as just sensation with story or something else?

Good question – what says it does? What spins you round and round with its blah blah blah…..?

Yes. I see what you mean. That's just another story. Thought doesn't need comfort. It doesn't or can't need anything. It has no requirements it just likes to make up stuff. It doesn't seem to mind if it's believed or not, it just keeps going. That's just what it does. That's probably all it can do!

And do you see all this?

OK. I'll stop torturing myself with my own impatience.

What is impatience? Who is being impatient? Is that controlled?

And I'll look out for expectations created by looking at other people's experiences. But is it OK to take a look at how other people are doing? Sometimes it gives me a new angle to explore that I hadn't previously considered.

OK – couple of things. Yes look out for thought expectation. Second – just to check - these questions need to be answered from your own experience – not someone elses. Please don’t think others ‘know’ more than you. OK. You are doing just fine on your own!
Something or anything in particular you want to bring here?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[decoyplankton]

Hi Sarah,

And does ‘want’ vanish or is it seen as just sensation with story or something else?

Want doesn't vanish, but when I can see what it actually is, what it's made up of, it is just then something to be observed. It isn't something that I automatically become wrapped up in. It is just as you say, sensation with a story attached.

And do you see all this?

Yes I do see this. But that doesn't mean that I don't sometimes get sucked into thought again, when I forget. Sometimes I can picture thought wagging it's finger saying "got you that time !". Like you said before though, it doesn't matter if I forget to look as long as I see what's happened even after its happened.

What is impatience? Who is being impatient? Is that controlled?

We're back to want again I suppose. Impatience is another form of wanting - so it's another thought and story. I see this. My impatience takes the form of :-

- feeling like I want to see what those who have 'woken up' see. I want to know what that feels like. I want to know what's beyond it if anything I mean in terms of it being the start and not the end of a journey.

- I can't always post everyday with something meaningful. I mean I can post just to say I'm still here but that doesn't get me further down the line.


I know this isn't a learning thing so to speak. But just to give you an insight into my character ... When I come across something new that I don't understand, I usually try to absorb every bit of information I can find to help me understand it. I guess that's what I'm doing when I say I get a new angle to explore from reading other posts.

I don't feel like I'm competing with anyone, and I don't think that others 'know more than me' really, although some are clearly further on but that doesn't matter to me.
I do understand your point though about these questions being answered from my own experience, so I'll stick with that. There's nothing in particular that I want to bring up here. I think the reason that I search for answers in other ways is primarily because if I can't see something straight away, I don't know how to 'look' for it in direct experience. Sometimes I dont know how or where to start looking.

Rich

[Sarah7]

Hi Rich

feeling like I want to see what those who have 'woken up' see. I want to know what that feels like. I want to know what's beyond it if anything I mean in terms of it being the start and not the end of a journey.

Expectation! Do you see it! Story!
Have you read the saying at the bottom of each of my posts? Have a good look at it and let it sink in. Don’t think about it just sit with it. Go to breath, sensation, hearing etc and watch it all pass over the mirror.
Now answer.

I can't always post everyday with something meaningful. I mean I can post just to say I'm still here but that doesn't get me further down the line.

What line would that be then? A future thought line? :)

I know this isn't a learning thing so to speak. But just to give you an insight into my character ... When I come across something new that I don't understand, I usually try to absorb every bit of information I can find to help me understand it. I guess that's what I'm doing when I say I get a new angle to explore from reading other posts.

OK – well you can just chuck all that out again! It won’t count for anything! LOL. This is not an intellectual pursuit. Mind or thought will never get this – ever! Period! But as we have looked at previously – what arises in what is? There is hearing, seeing, sensation, being, thought, etc. All arise. Yes? You see this? There is something that is aware of all of this coming and going? Yes? You know this? What else is there Rich that isn’t based on imagination and thought?

I think the reason that I search for answers in other ways is primarily because if I can't see something straight away, I don't know how to 'look' for it in direct experience. Sometimes I dont know how or where to start looking.

Yes you do! What tells you you can’t or don’t know how!!!!! Seeing happens and hearing happens all the time – its there right at your finger tip! Its so simple we overlook it – and why? Because thought wants something other than what is! LOL.
Hugs Sarah xxx

[decoyplankton]

Hi Sarah,

Expectation! Do you see it! Story!
Have you read the saying at the bottom of each of my posts? Have a good look at it and let it sink in. Don’t think about it just sit with it. Go to breath, sensation, hearing etc and watch it all pass over the mirror.

Yes. I've done exactly what you said and it is all story. Took a bit of time last night to really sit down and sit with that - I had a free night, my wife was staying away, kids in bed all the time in the world to check this out. I say for a good while and let all the thoughts just pass by. There is nothing except what is now. All the rest cannot be anything other than a string of thought as either memories or future projections which try to pull in any direction except the present. I can watch all that stuff pass over but there is only ever this moment.

OK – well you can just chuck all that out again! It won’t count for anything! LOL. This is not an intellectual pursuit. Mind or thought will never get this – ever! Period! But as we have looked at previously – what arises in what is? There is hearing, seeing, sensation, being, thought, etc. All arise. Yes? You see this?

Right. I vow not to knowingly use any kind of logical thought or reasoning during this process from now on :-). Never was much good at logic anyway. Can't even win an argument with my 10yr old daughter anymore !! I hope that's normal LOL.

Yes though as stated above, I do see what arises in what is. And I can see that something is aware. Something notices. There isn't anything else. I have to keep looking to this though, in order to keep the knowing alive. It's easy to forget during the normal and sometimes stressful events of the day. But when I start looking, I see it again. So I try to keep looking and keep going back to it whenever I can.

Take care
Rich.