Looking for a guide.

[greggyz]

But the 'I' that would become free of troubles is seen as an idea isn't it?
There is no 'I' to become free of troubles because there never was an 'I' with troubles in the first place.

Sighs, mind workings impress me. Never tired. Yes, of course the 'I' with troubles is an idea.

What change is expected? And what is going to change?
What has ever made any effort?

Something has made an effort. But it is still a concept.

If a merely 'intellectual' understanding was established, that would be that there was an 'I', a person to gain that understanding. Is this even the case?

Clearly not.

I'm sorry if a lot of this pointing seems repetitive, but I want you try to see through all these expectations.
At the same time, realise that there is no seperate self to see through these expectations.

Don't say sorry. I only feel that slaps like these bring me back on track.

All of these questions and expectations are a bunch of thoughts and ideas pointing at nothing.
Is this seen?

Bunch of ideas pointing at other ideas. Playing non-stop.

[Xain]

Bunch of ideas pointing at other ideas. Playing non-stop

Yes.
What can be done is that whenever an expectation appears, to examine it. Examining the thought.
Try to find the truth of that expectation and what it means. Is it anything other than another thought appearing?

Even though 'I', the seperate self is seen to be an idea / a thought, we can still conventionally say that there is a large amount of conditioning present which 'rolls on'. If the 'I' has been assumed to be real for many many years, then is it wise to believe this will magically 'stop' all of a sudden?
What can be seen is that realising that 'I' IS just an idea, it is the beginning of this conditioning to slowly drop away. For the realisation to sink in. Slowly over time the thoughts will subside . . .

When you are ready, I have a further six questions to ask as part of this process. They may uncover other areas for us to explore (or not, as the case may be).

Are you ready for them?

Xain ♥

[greggyz]

When you are ready, I have a further six questions to ask as part of this process. They may uncover other areas for us to explore (or not, as the case may be).

Are you ready for them?

Absolutely. I say I am ready but 'I' that is ready is just an idea yet it makes sense,lol.

[Xain]

Absolutely. I say I am ready but 'I' that is ready is just an idea yet it makes sense,lol.

Yes indeed! :-)

You see, we can continue the conversation - I can still say 'I am talking to you'.
However, it is simply realised to all be based in thought. Just ideas.
No need to reject it - No need to talk differently or use different words.
Simply realise what's going on? See? :-)

Here are the first three of the six questions - Have a go at answering them when you have a moment.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference between 'now' and from before you started this dialogue? Perhaps give a report from the past few days.

3) Was there a last bit that pushed you over? Made you look and realise? Perhaps something I mentioned, or something that you looked into yourself?

Xain ♥

[greggyz]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference between 'now' and from before you started this dialogue? Perhaps give a report from the past few days.

3) Was there a last bit that pushed you over? Made you look and realise? Perhaps something I mentioned, or something that you looked into yourself?

Xain ♥

1. No, nowhere never ever has been, is or will be.
2. I hope you won't be disappointed but I don't feel different except maybe for the daily feeling of rejecting this idea. I wish I could say it feels liberating or other fancy crap but no.
3. If you asked me to trace the realization to any particular point I wouldn't be able to do so. I mentioned it to you from the very beginning that I always accepted the idea from my own meditative experience but it's nothing else, I understand that there is no 'I' but I didn't understand it just recently, I understood it long ago. It just doesn't make any difference. You made me go through various exercises and looking which made me convinced even more but I wouldn't say that there was some point at which 'something obvious' like a realization happened.

[Xain]

No problem, Greg.

Here are the last three of the six questions.

4) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. (Feel free to use conventional language here)

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give examples from experience if possible.

6) Do you have anything else you would like to say or add?

Xain ♥

[greggyz]

4) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. (Feel free to use conventional language here)

Well, I want, I need, he hurt my feelings all that refers to an entity that can't be found. It's just a thought, there is no one to want coz the ownership is illusory. When my mindfulness is strong enough and arises fast enough I can see arising and vanishing of thoughts, empty made from nothing but 'I' that thinks those thoughts doesn't exist. Period. There is this body and language and bullshit but I is a fantom.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give examples from experience if possible.

When I decided, intent, will, control there is no I, just decisions, intentions and etc. Somehow they arise by conditions like someone says lift your right hand you lift it instantly but there is no 'I' that lifted it, just hearing the command, then thought, then intention to lift the hand and then the motor units get involved and move the body part each connected with other.

6) Do you have anything else you would like to say or add?

Yes, very much. lol. I catch myself being confused all the time. If I have already totally accepted the idea that there is no 'I' then how is it when I am angry I know I shouldn't be coz I don't exist and etc. (hahah, before i finished this sentence I already realized the fault with this idea, it assumes there is 'I' that already accepted the idea)

How do people become completely free from all the illusionary tendencies based on 'I'? Coz it doesn't make sense to me that having realized that there is no 'I' there is still wanting to get shit for 'I' which doesn't exist. Seems contradictory. Then I think the realization is not complete or something.

Thank you very much for your time Xain!

[greggyz]

Xain ♥

Where are youuuuuuuuuuuu? :)

[Xain]

When my mindfulness is strong enough and arises fast enough I can see arising and vanishing of thoughts.

On the conventional level, I understand what you are saying - But is there an 'I', a seperate self with mindfulness of varying degrees?
Is there a separate self witnessing thoughts?

There is this body

Sure. We can say that.
Is the body anything more than an object appearing in experience like any other object?
Does it have any ties at all to being 'you', other than in thought?

Somehow they arise by conditions like someone says lift your right hand you lift it instantly but there is no 'I' that lifted it

Is there an 'I' getting instructions from someone else?
Is there an 'I', a seperate self getting guided right now?

How do you mean 'You lift your right hand, but there is no 'I' lifting it'?

Xain ♥

[greggyz]

On the conventional level, I understand what you are saying - But is there an 'I', a seperate self with mindfulness of varying degrees?
Is there a separate self witnessing thoughts?

Of course not. Bunch of conditions that allow mindfulness and witnessing.

Sure. We can say that.
Is the body anything more than an object appearing in experience like any other object?
Does it have any ties at all to being 'you', other than in thought?

It's not self or anything. Just an object which can be experienced because of conditions of which none are self or 'I'. There is no owner of the body besides a thought.
(I just asked myself who is typing this - no one, just a bunch of conditions, none of them is me or mine)

Is there an 'I' getting instructions from someone else?
Is there an 'I', a seperate self getting guided right now?

Nope, instructions are received by a bunch of conditions none of which is me or mine. No one is being guided either. Guiding requires agreement of concepts such as a guide and a guided which are none other than mere conventional ideas.

How do you mean 'You lift your right hand, but there is no 'I' lifting it'?

I don't know what lifts a hand but the best description would be a bunch of conditions i.e. chemicals, muscle fibres and etc. none of which are me or mine.

I can't tell how things happen but I can surely say that they don't happen because 'I' makes them happen.

[Xain]

In your third post, you said

I am still seeking and I want to be done with seeking. No matter how well I understand intellectually that there is nothing to seek and there is no one who seeks I still can't break through this thing

Is there still seeking? If yes, by what/whom?
What does this statement elicit now: 'No matter how well I understand intellectually that there is nothing to seek and there is no one who seeks I still can't break through this thing."

Xain ♥

[greggyz]

Is there still seeking? If yes, by what/whom?

Yes, there is still seeking but obviously not by 'me', by thoughts and ideas. They are contradictory ideas: if there is no one to seek then what is this seeking? Seeking arises in ideas.

What does this statement elicit now: 'No matter how well I understand intellectually that there is nothing to seek and there is no one who seeks I still can't break through this thing."

There is an idea that there is still something to be found (enlightenment, realization etc) but it doesn't make sense because if there was a realization that there is no seeker or enlightenment seeking should have stopped. (expectations again?)

[Xain]

Yes, there is still seeking but obviously not by 'me', by thoughts and ideas. They are contradictory ideas: if there is no one to seek then what is this seeking? Seeking arises in ideas.

These seeking thoughts and ideas (they may still continue after realising 'no separate self) . . .
Do the thoughts have an owner?
Do they have a creator?
Is it realised that the complete cessation of thoughts is an unfulfillable expectation . . . especially if they aren't being witnessed by an 'I', nor relate to a 'real' separate self anyway? (Such as 'I am not finished yet').

To put it another way, are the seeking thoughts a problem?
If so, to whom?
Could it be different?
What is going to change it?

Xain ♥

[greggyz]

These seeking thoughts and ideas (they may still continue after realising 'no separate self) . . .

I believe they should change in nature at least, they should be less egocentric. If there is a real realization then anger shouldn't arise when an illusory 'I' is mistreated.

Do the thoughts have an owner?
Do they have a creator?

No. No.

Is it realised that the complete cessation of thoughts is an unfulfillable expectation . . . especially if they aren't being witnessed by an 'I', nor relate to a 'real' separate self anyway? (Such as 'I am not finished yet').

Complete cessation of thoughts is impossible, sure, but thoughts related to an imaginary self should cease once the realization is complete.

To put it another way, are the seeking thoughts a problem?

VERY GOOD QUESTION.

If so, to whom?

To the fake 'I'

Could it be different?
What is going to change it?
I don't know but I believed it could be different. Complete realization should change the nature of thoughts, hahaha some more expectations

[Xain]

Complete cessation of thoughts is impossible, sure, but thoughts related to an imaginary self should cease once the realization is complete.

Cease for whom?
And why?

To put it another way, are the seeking thoughts a problem?
VERY GOOD QUESTION.
If so, to whom?
To the fake 'I'

And the fake 'I' is what?

Xain ♥