Thread for Klaus Zero

[Vivien]

Dear Klaus,

While you’re typing you have to press the ‘SAVE’ button frequently not to lose the text, if the system logs off.

Love, Vivien

[Klaus Zero]

Dear Vivien, I cannot answer today, very much to do. excuse. I hope tomorrow will be time. Klaus Zero

[Klaus Zero]

Dear Vivien,

I do not know what is going on at the moment. I feel so tired. In the night I cannot sleep, I dont want to think. Please give me some time to answer. I dont feel ready to do so at the Moment.

Love Klaus

[Klaus Zero]

Dear Vivien


Vivien asking:
Klaus: When I go deeper there is silence, a not me state, knowing that this not me state is the "real" me, knowing that this state is allways here, that this I AM, knowing that the Body is not needed, In this state world is seen like a dream, world is not hated. In this state words have no meaning at all.
Here is a belief in operation, a belief that liberation is a state. LIBERATION IS NOT A STATE. It has nothing to do with any states.
Happiness or peace is a state, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Liberation is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about encompassing all emotions, accepting whatever is arising in this moment.

Klaus: Yes, words are to limited to talk about a none state. I dont want to go into the next trap. Then you will write me who doen not want to...go ...there is nobody...I know...Who knows...the stateless state...the nothing...the essence...

Vivien:
Many seekers believe that liberation is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case.

Klaus:
Here happens the same, sometimes their is a believe, a longing going out of that state, going into another state, (for spirituals seekers) there will be believe about freedom in that stateless state, and that is just another thought. This grows an identity of a personal I. I know, who knows?

Different to the believe, is the clear understanding, knowing, that there is nothing, nothing to be hurt, nothing to have fear of and so on. Different is the clear seeing that there is nothing, really nothing, that seeing is not out of learned or believed Advaita teachings, different is to see really. When you ask me for example what I see, then I would answer, I see trees, and bodys, movements,
but all of this is just a dream, I see goverments, hate and destroying, but all of that is not true.

I see thoughts and feelings come and go. They seem heavy but it is not true.


Vivien writes:
Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity ‘self’ is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual.

Klaus: Yes

Vivien:
For example, did you ever once believe that Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy was real? If you did at one point, and don't now, does the experience of discovery last? Or is it that the knowledge that there is no such thing as Santa or Tooth Fairy is just another ‘fact’?

Klaus:
No once realised, seen that it was just a believe, nothing real the truth will not be disturbed onece more.
But what happened here is, that I went into a Movie. I knew it is just a movie and the an identification with an actor took place, severe reelings came up. Identification took place, Everyone knows that it is a film, but identification took place, tear have been falling down my face, identification took place, and I had no choice over the identification or not, of seeing through or not.

Vivien writes:
Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. IT IS NOT.
There is no Identity at the same time there is the only true identity.
At the same time the knowing that I AM THAT.
There is NO ‘real me’ and ‘un-real me’. None of them exist.
There is NO true identity.
There is NO “I am that”.

Klaus: Yes like the example with the film, identification, no Identification, feelings, tears, ...

Vivien:
These are just the content of thoughts that are believed. These are just unexamined beliefs.
knowing that the Body is not needed
This is just another thought believed. This is the denial of the body. There is a belief behind this statement that there is a ‘real me’ that that exist without the body. But there is NOT a ‘real me’.

Klaus:
OK, Vivien, this is a real hard one, for "ME". I have the idea, that there is nothing - this nothing is the the potencial energy for everything, the potencial energy of the whole show, the potencial energy what creates our identification with life and creates the Idea that there is a person, apart from the whole who has his own way he can go and do.
This is learned just from Advaita teachings...and just the another thought....this happens every day, like in the film that I was talking about. No choice.

You are totally wright, there is no me in the beginning, nor in the middle (the dreamed energie expanding) nor in the end.
the end is now, here,


Vivien:
I AM everywhere at the same time.
This is just a grasping for a new identification. From now on, I am not this body, but I am something else that is everywhere.

Klaus:
OK thats true, thats one of the habbits here....wanting to be n o t h i n g, wanting all the "bad" things aways instead of flowing with was is, the whole resisting Story here is endless....

Vivien:
There is NO ‘real identity’.
As long as there is a grasping for having a new identity, the illusion of the ‘me’ is kept ‘alive’.

Klaus: Thank you

Vivien:
Please let me know what comes up reading this. Is there any resistance to any of it?

Klaus:
3 Day resistance, feeling tired, wanting to get this Dämons out and today answering.

Thank you so much

We will go on sharing.

Great respect and Love.

Klaus

[Vivien]

Dear Klaus,

Klaus: Who knows...the stateless state...the nothing...the essence...

There is NO stateless state. – this is just the content of a thought, a story that is believed and not seen only as a story.

Klaus: Here happens the same, sometimes their is a believe, a longing going out of that state, going into another state, (for spirituals seekers) there will be believe about freedom in that stateless state, and that is just another thought. This grows an identity of a personal I.

There is NO stateless state Klaus. This is just a fairy tale.

I see thoughts and feelings come and go.

What is this ‘I’ that sees thoughts and feelings to come and go?
Where is this ‘I’ exactly?

Klaus: I have the idea, that there is nothing

IDEA? Klaus, we are not interested in ideas. We are interested in ‘REAL THINGS’.
An idea is nothing more than a fairy tale, a fantasy.

this nothing is the the potencial energy for everything, the potencial energy of the whole show, the potencial energy what creates our identification with life and creates the Idea that there is a person, apart from the whole who has his own way he can go and do.

This is just a thought story believed.

This is learned just from Advaita teachings...and just the another thought...

We are not interested here in teachings, in second-hand knowledge. We are interested in only the PURE EXPERIENCE in this moment.

If you were in a desert, close to die of thirst, could you quench your thirst just by thinking about water (thoughts) or would you need to drink the ‘real’ water?

Let’s say I’m with you in the desert and offer you too options: (1) In my left hand there is a piece of paper with the word ‘water’ written onto it (2) and in my right hand there is a bottle of water.

Which one would you choose? The label or the actual water?
Could you quench your thirst with the label?
If not, what this says about labels? Are they real?

Yes, they are real as labels (as a piece of paper with the word printed on it) but its content (= the word ‘water’) is not real. Can you see this?

Here is a little exercise. Close your eyes and imagine holding a watermelon in your hands. Imagine it so vividly that you can feel its weight, the shape and texture of the skin. Hold it there, sensing it. Then open your eyes.

What happened to the melon?
How about the sensation that was so believable?
Was there ever a melon in ‘reality’?

The thoughts and mental images are real only as thoughts and mental images, but their contents (like the watermelon) are not. Can you see this?

Love, Vivien

[Klaus Zero]

Dear Vivien, lets go further

Dear Klaus,

Klaus: Who knows...the stateless state...the nothing...the essence...
There is NO stateless state. – this is just the content of a thought, a story that is believed and not seen only as a story.

Klaus: yes true

Vivien:
Klaus: Here happens the same, sometimes their is a believe, a longing going out of that state, going into another state, (for spirituals seekers) there will be believe about freedom in that stateless state, and that is just another thought. This grows an identity of a personal I.
There is NO stateless state Klaus. This is just a fairy tale.

Klaus: OK
I see thoughts and feelings come and go.
What is this ‘I’ that sees thoughts and feelings to come and go?
Where is this ‘I’ exactly?

Klaus:
ok it feels like brainwashing, There is no I that sees anything, What I call I is just a undefined space.
there is no I never here or there.


Vivien:
Klaus: I have the idea, that there is nothing
IDEA? Klaus, we are not interested in ideas. We are interested in ‘REAL THINGS’.
An idea is nothing more than a fairy tale, a fantasy.

this nothing is the the potencial energy for everything, the potencial energy of the whole show, the potencial energy what creates our identification with life and creates the Idea that there is a person, apart from the whole who has his own way he can go and do.
This is just a thought story believed.

Klaus: Whow...ok that was just another Story of the mind,.....

Vivien:
This is learned just from Advaita teachings...and just the another thought...
We are not interested here in teachings, in second-hand knowledge. We are interested in only the PURE EXPERIENCE in this moment.
If you were in a desert, close to die of thirst, could you quench your thirst just by thinking about water (thoughts) or would you need to drink the ‘real’ water?

Klaus:
Yes real water

Vivien:
Let’s say I’m with you in the desert and offer you too options: (1) In my left hand there is a piece of paper with the word ‘water’ written onto it (2) and in my right hand there is a bottle of water.
Which one would you choose? The label or the actual water?
Could you quench your thirst with the label?
If not, what this says about labels? Are they real?

Klaus:
the paper just with words is unreal, the real water is real. Why I have to learn this. Water is water I know this, speaking about water does not take my thisrst. you Point me to real experience, but is that real also? Are you real? the one that is pointing me?



Here is a little exercise. Close your eyes and imagine holding a watermelon in your hands. Imagine it so vividly that you can feel its weight, the shape and texture of the skin. Hold it there, sensing it. Then open your eyes.

What happened to the melon?
How about the sensation that was so believable?
Was there ever a melon in ‘reality’?

Klaus:
No ...never there has been a Melone. Never ever that has been here. Sure. That where just words that you wrote me.

Vivien:
The thoughts and mental images are real only as thoughts and mental images, but their contents (like the watermelon) are not. Can you see this?

Klaus:
For me not even the thoughts where real, there never was a water Melone.

[Klaus Zero]

I never thought than anyone can put out those believes like you do. But that is not you. Because there is no me there cant be any you also. who or what does this - wright? There is no person behind, no body behind, and no one behind, tell what is behind? n o t h i n g behind. and this nothing is something that asks= very difficult for me,.Nothing cannot ask something! Neverever.

if there is no one that puts out believes, if there is no one that brings clear seeing without a seer...who is there?
for me it is very clear, that it must be nothing what has to be something at the same time. but you say that ther e is nothing, that there nothing has ever been. How to understand...I turn always nothing into some t h i n g.

[Vivien]

Dear Klaus,

Vivien: There is NO stateless state. – this is just the content of a thought, a story that is believed and not seen only as a story.

Klaus: yes true

Has this been CLEARLY SEEN, or is it just an intellectual understanding now?

Klaus: ok it feels like brainwashing, There is no I that sees anything, What I call I is just a undefined space. there is no I never here or there.

How is it felt that this is a brainwashing, with which of the 5 senses (seeing, hearing, touching/feeling, tasting, smelling)?
Can a brainwashing felt, or this is just the content of a thought that is believed and not seen only as a thought?

“What I call I is just an undefined space” – How is this known?
With which of the 5 senses of the “undefined space” is experienced?
Can the “undefined spaced” experienced at all, or is this just the content of another thought that is believed?

Klaus: Whow...ok that was just another Story of the mind,.....

Has this been REALLY seen, or those words are just BELEVED?

How is the mind experienced, with which of the 5 senses (seeing, hearing, touching/feeling, tasting, smelling)?
Can the ‘mind’ be just a thought label attached to the experience?

Klaus: For me not even the thoughts where real, there never was a water Melone.

Yes, the melon was NEVER ‘real’.
But there were mental images and thoughts about a melon.
The images and thoughts were there. They are ‘real’ as images and thoughts.
But what they are ABOUT (like the melon) is NOT ‘real’.

The thought is ‘real’ as an arising thought, but its content, what it is ABOUT is NOT.
Can you see the difference?

But that is not you. Because there is no me there cant be any you also. who or what does this - wright? There is no person behind, no body behind, and no one behind, tell what is behind? n o t h i n g behind. and this nothing is something that asks= very difficult for me,.Nothing cannot ask something! Neverever.

Yes, there is neither ‘you’ (Klaus) nor ‘me’ (Vivien). And still, questions arise, questions are asked and answered.

Questioning and answering happen, but nobody is doing them.
Can you see this?

if there is no one that puts out believes, if there is no one that brings clear seeing without a seer...who is there?

Exactly!

Is there a ‘thing’ doing all of these?
Or seeing just happens by itself without anything or anybody doing it?

Seeing happens but without an owner (you).

for me it is very clear, that it must be nothing what has to be something at the same time. but you say that ther e is nothing, that there nothing has ever been. How to understand...I turn always nothing into some t h i n g.

Dear Klaus, these are just thoughts. Stories. It cannot be understood by thoughts. Because all of these are PRIOR TO thoughts.

‘Nothing’ or ‘something’ is nothing more than mental labels. They are only ideas, concepts.

Does the word ‘nothing’ or ‘something’ pointing to anything ‘real’?

Love, Vivien

[Klaus Zero]

von Vivien » 20. Okt 2014, 02:19
Dear Klaus,
Vivien:
Vivien: There is NO stateless state. – this is just the content of a thought, a story that is believed and not seen only as a story.
Klaus: yes true
Has this been CLEARLY SEEN, or is it just an intellectual understanding now?

Klaus:
A stateless state is a non state. It cannot be, because it has no state, Because it is not.


Vivien:
Klaus: ok it feels like brainwashing, There is no I that sees anything, What I call I is just a undefined space. there is no I never here or there.
How is it felt that this is a brainwashing, with which of the 5 senses (seeing, hearing, touching/feeling, tasting, smelling)?
Can a brainwashing felt, or this is just the content of a thought that is believed and not seen only as a thought?
Klaus: It is not felt. Not with the fife sences. It is content of a thought. Only a thought, that is not seen what it is. It creates more suffering, resistence and an imagined I that has tu suffer that.
Vivien:
“What I call I is just an undefined space” – How is this known?
With which of the 5 senses of the “undefined space” is experienced?
Can the “undefined spaced” experienced at all, or is this just the content of another thought that is believed?

Klaus: The I does not exist, that is clearly seen. How it is seen? I do not know. It is not experienced with the 5 senses. Nothing undefind, nothing not existent can be experienced.So beautiful, I always thought I have to ge rid oft he ego whow we can get rid of something that really does not exist? We can not get rid of something that does not exist.


Vivien:
Klaus: Whow...ok that was just another story of the mind,.....
Has this been REALLY seen, or those words are just BELIEVED?
How is the mind experienced, with which of the 5 senses (seeing, hearing, touching/feeling, tasting, smelling)?
Can the ‘mind’ be just a thought label attached to the experience?



Klaus:
Yes this is seen - not believed. The mind is not experienced with seeing, smelling, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling) The mind is experienced as thought.

Vivien:
Klaus: For me not even the thoughts where real, there never was a water Melone
Yes, the melon was NEVER ‘real’.
But there were mental images and thoughts about a melon.
The images and thoughts were there. They are ‘real’ as images and thoughts.
But what they are ABOUT (like the melon) is NOT ‘real’.
The thought is ‘real’ as an arising thought, but its content, what it is ABOUT is NOT.
Can you see the difference?

Klaus: Yes

Vivien:
But that is not you. Because there is no me there cant be any you also. who or what does this - wright? There is no person behind, no body behind, and no one behind, tell what is behind? n o t h i n g behind. and this nothing is something that asks= very difficult for me,.Nothing cannot ask something! Neverever.
Yes, there is neither ‘you’ (Klaus) nor ‘me’ (Vivien). And still, questions arise, questions are asked and answered.
Questioning and answering happen, but nobody is doing them.
Can you see this?

Klaus: yes I can see this, but a body (something) is here (without a person inside) but a body is clearly seen, funiture are clearly seen, trees are clearly seen) not by an I but they are seen and furniture and trees are seen. I know there is a difference between the naming, labeling of something to bee a tree and the tree.

Vivien:
If there is no one that puts out believes, if there is no one that brings clear seeing without a seer...who is there?

Klaus: Nothing…n o t h i n g …

Vivien:
Exactly!
Is there a ‘thing’ doing all of these?
Or seeing just happens by itself without anything or anybody doing it?

Klaus:
It happens by itself.

Vivien:
Seeing happens but without an owner (you).for me it is very clear, that it must be nothing what has to be something at the same time. But you say that there is nothing, that there nothing has ever been. How to understand...I turn always nothing into some t h i n g.
Dear Klaus, these are just thoughts. Stories. It cannot be understood by thoughts. Because all of these are PRIOR TO thoughts.

Klaus:
Yes it is different to think about a tree and to realise a tree.

Vivien:
‘Nothing’ or ‘something’ is nothing more than mental labels. They are only ideas, concepts.

Does the word ‘nothing’ or ‘something’ pointing to anything ‘real’?

Klaus:
Somehow yes and somehow no. Does the finger pointing to the moon - be the moon? The saying - the world is nothing - is just a pointer - like a finger that shows to the moon. Yes it is a thought (but thought ca be very helpfull also) and at the same time not that what I was talking about. NOTHING is Nothing…there is no thing…there nothing is…that means it is not, it has no existence. The words themselves have no meaning but what they do ist to try to explain.
The word himself is a label (has no real meaning, existence) , what wants to be expressed is to point at…
Imagine that you have a baby in your bedroom. The Baby is hungry and cries. Within you the thought arises, what ist hat noise for, it is just a thought, just labeling something that is not true, and you hear the baby crying for many days, and the baby dies, is thought helpfull or not. Real or not?
I know that you are helping me, to learn to distinguish. You are awesome in this. And it is great help to me (hahaha) but it is.
You (knowing that personal existence is not real) do something (knowing that you are not he doer) to help me out of my believes of doership. That is great. Thougts have their own reality. Sometimes they are helpfull, sometimes not.

[Vivien]

Dear Klaus,

Klaus: Yes this is seen - not believed. The mind is not experienced with seeing, smelling, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling) The mind is experienced as thought.

“The mind is experienced as thought” – REALLY? Are you sure?
Where is the mind exactly?
Can the ‘mind’ be experienced at all?

The mind is just a mental label, just the content of another thought. Can you see this?

Klaus: yes I can see this, but a body (something) is here (without a person inside) but a body is clearly seen, funiture are clearly seen, trees are clearly seen) not by an I but they are seen and furniture and trees are seen.

OK, let’s examine the body now.

With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other 4 sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from those four senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does it have a weight or a volume of the body?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there an inside or outside?
What is the body in the actual experience?

Love, Vivien

[Klaus Zero]

Hallo dear Vivien

Vivien:
“The mind is experienced as thought” – REALLY? Are you sure?
Where is the mind exactly?
Can the ‘mind’ be experienced at all?

Klaus:
No I am not shure, there a mind cannot be lokated in a special place or Region, mind cannot be experienced at all.
Thoughts come and go ...but a mind is not found.

Vivien:
The mind is just a mental label, just the content of another thought. Can you see this?
Klaus: yes I can see this, but a body (something) is here (without a person inside) but a body is clearly seen, funiture are clearly seen, trees are clearly seen) not by an I but they are seen and furniture and trees are seen.
OK, let’s examine the body now.

Vivien:
With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other 4 sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from those four senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is? NO
Does it have a weight or a volume of the body? NO
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? NO
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? NO
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form? NO
Is there an inside or outside? NO INSIDE NO OUSIDE NO BOUNDRY
What is the body in the actual experience? NOTHING

Thanks Klaus

[Vivien]

Dear Klaus,

Klaus: Thoughts come and go ...but a mind is not found.

So, what is the ‘mind’ then?

Let’s have a deeper look on thoughts. Sit for about 15 minutes and investigate these questions:

Where thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can a thought be stopped in the middle?

Can it be predicted what will be the next thought?
Can it be chosen not to have painful or negative thoughts?

What generates thoughts?
What is the thinker of thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

What do the thoughts belong to? What owns them?
Do you think thoughts or you are just being thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

Please go through these questions and answer ALL of them one-by-one. Don’t miss any.

Love, Vivien

[Klaus Zero]

Dear Vivien!

Vivien:
Thoughts come and go ...but a mind is not found.
So, what is the ‘mind’ then?
Klaus:
Mind is nothing, does not exist, another thought, label about a me that does not exist.

Vivien:
Let’s have a deeper look on thoughts. Sit for about 15 minutes and investigate these questions:
1 Where thoughts come from?
2Where are they going?
3 Can a thought be stopped in the middle?
4 Can it be predicted what will be the next thought?
5 Can it be chosen not to have painful or negative thoughts?
6 What generates thoughts?
7 What is the thinker of thoughts?
8 Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
9 Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
10 What do the thoughts belong to? What owns them?
11 Do you think thoughts or you are just being thought?
12 Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

Don’t miss any.

Klaus:
1 I would say they come out oft he blue, from nowhere. They come and go.
2 They disolve, they do not go to any place or so.
3. No, never made that expierience.
4. No,
5. No.
6. Nothing. Thought arises – thought dissolves. There is nothing, no self not an I or me. Best word I find is „comes – and goes“, „appear – dissapear“.
7. No thinker of thought.
8. No thinker appears. When thought is not seen what it really is, a seemingly „thinker“ of that thought appers, goes into suffering or being happy …but the thinker is not real.
9. „I“ think is also a thought.
10. They do not belong to anything. Nothing owns them.
11. No. I am not just thought, I am nothing.
12. Thoughts come and go, appear, disappear…that has nothing to do with „me“. I am non existence. Not here, neverever ………..and that is also another thought.
How funny to say something about no existence….just another thought.

[Klaus Zero]

Thank you Vivien,

that is very Relaxing - I know - that is another thought.

Thank you Klaus.

[Vivien]

Dear Klaus,

You did a very good LOOKing :)

that is very Relaxing - I know - that is another thought.

Relaxation is REALLY just a thought?
Or there is a (1) bodily sensation (which is ‘real’) with an attached (2) mental label “this is very relaxing”?

No thinker appears. When thought is not seen what it really is, a seemingly „thinker“ of that thought appers, goes into suffering or being happy …but the thinker is not real.

OK, let’s examine what is suffering.

How suffering is ‘created’?
Is there anything that can own suffering?
What is suffering?

What is happening when we say “I suffer”?
Can suffering be felt?
If yes, with which of the 5 senses?

Love, Vivien