Requesting a Guide

[Wreath]

Thought is based in language and language can be very confusing as it presumes a subject and an object at all times.
So the language suggest that there is an ‘I’ (subject) that is doing (looking) the computer (object).

Yes, this does make reporting on the whole thing a little tricky. This all gets pretty hard to put into words.

Put one of the hands onto the table.
Does the pure sensation suggest in any way that there is a hand or only thoughts and mental pictures suggest this?
Does the pure sensation suggest in any way that there is a table or only thoughts and mental pictures suggest this?
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that anything being touched/felt (object) or there is only touching/feeling?

If I put a hand on the table (and close my eyes to focus on the sensation), then all there is is a sense of warmth and hardness. It’s coordinated in the mind with mental images of hand and table, but the sensation itself is just...a sensation. That’s strange, because if I open my eyes and see the hand, I realize what I see and what I feel don’t really have a relationship to each other except in thought. It’s only though that tells me what I see is the same thing as what I feel. The sensation is just one thing. What I see (hand and table) are another thing. But the thought tells me it’s caused by two things touching: “me” and “table.” It is also only thought that tells me the sensation is "warmoth and hardness."

Same with hearing.
Does the hearing itself suggest in any way that a sound is heard, or there is only hearing?

Again, yes, there is only the sound. If I close my eyes and focus on the sound, I hear just a sound. But my thoughts tell me, “That’s a car passing by outside.” And if I look out the window, I see cars. But again, it’s only thought that makes the connection between what I see and what I hear.

That’s really weird. It’s like all of my five senses are totally different things and when I developed as a baby I must have learned to piece them all together with thought.

Let’s examine the body a bit more closely.

Here is an interesting exercise on the body.
With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from those four senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No, it can’t. There’s a thought of a number in my head from having my height measured. But there is no real way to tell height, since there’s nothing to compare it to. Height is imaginary I guess. Actually, the more I do this, I recognize that there is no body here. Just a lot of sensations--feelings, sounds, tastes, smells. Thought tells me that they’re happening in a body.

Does it have a weight or a volume of the body?

No. No weight. There is a sensation of the body touching the chair which thought tells me is the ‘heaviness’ of my body on the chair, but no, no weight or volume. Just the same numbers in my head from having my weight measured.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

No, there’s not even a sense of there being clothing OR a body in the same way that there was no hand or table. There is warmth and sensation and my thoughts explain to me that it is caused by my clothes touching my body.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

No, just the sensation.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No, there doesn’t seem to be a body at all. Just sensations. Or really, just sensation, singular, since it's only thoughts that differentiates sensation into various separate sensations by interpreting them.

Is there an inside or outside?

No. I can feel a quality of warmth that thought interprets as inside my body, and a quality of warmth and softness that thought interprets as my skin touching my clothes. But all they are sensations of different qualities.

What is the body in the actual experience?

Nothing but a thought that strings together all these sensations and tells a story about them. There is no body. I can’t find it.

[Vivien]

Dear Riley,

I can feel a quality of warmth that thought interprets as inside my body, and a quality of warmth and softness that thought interprets as my skin touching my clothes.

What is this ‘I’ exactly that could feel a “quality of warmth”?
Does the sensation itself imply in any what that “this is warmness” or “this is softness” or only mental labels suggest this?

then all there is is a sense of warmth and hardness.

So there are sensations with simultaneously arising mental labels (thoughts). So the “sense” part is ‘coming from’ the sensation, the “warmness and hardness” part is ‘coming from’ the labels and when they are ‘welded together’ the “sense of warmth and harness” emerges. Can you see this?

That’s strange, because if I open my eyes and see the hand, I realize what I see and what I feel don’t really have a relationship to each other except in thought. It’s only though that tells me what I see is the same thing as what I feel. The sensation is just one thing. What I see (hand and table) are another thing. But the thought tells me it’s caused by two things touching: “me” and “table.” It is also only thought that tells me the sensation is "warmoth and hardness."

Good LOOKing. :)

“Thoughts tells me” – What is this ‘me’ that thoughts could talk to?

If I close my eyes and focus on the sound, I hear just a sound. But my thoughts tell me, “That’s a car passing by outside.” And if I look out the window, I see cars. But again, it’s only thought that makes the connection between what I see and what I hear.

What is this ‘I’ that could see and hear and close its eyes?
Where is this ‘I’ located exactly?

That’s really weird. It’s like all of my five senses are totally different things

What is this ‘I’ that supposedly owns the 5 senses?

and when I developed as a baby I must have learned to piece them all together with thought.

So, are ‘you’ the body that could develop as a baby?

Here is an interesting exercise. Just consider . . .
Look in the mirror. See the image that is called ‘body’.
Was the ‘body’ that is seen in the mirror the one that was born on a certain date?
Or is the ‘body’ that is being seen in the mirror, different to the ‘body’ that was born on a certain date?

Other than this thought, how else is it known that the ‘body’ was born on that specific date?
Or is the thought the only link?
And because that thought is believed in, it is said to be 'reality'.

However, all it is just a thought appearing that is believed in?
Can you see this?

Can you see that “This body was born on xxxx” is simply a thought appearing that is believed in?
And nothing more than that.

So, can this body have a past?
Or everything that is labelled as ‘past’ is just a mental story?
Other than contents of thought stories, is there a ‘past’?

Can time be experienced?

There’s a thought of a number in my head from having my height measured.

How it is known that the thought of a number is “in the head”?
What is this head in the actual, direct experience?
Where is the ‘I’ that owns the head?

Nothing but a thought that strings together all these sensations and tells a story about them. There is no body. I can’t find it.

Good LOOKing.

Love, Vivien

[Wreath]

Thank you for this reply. It's been a busy day, so I'm going to return to this tomorrow with fresh energy.

[Vivien]

Dear Riley,

Thank you for letting me know. I’ll wait for your reply.

Love, Vivien

[Wreath]

What is this ‘I’ exactly that could feel a “quality of warmth”?
Does the sensation itself imply in any what that “this is warmness” or “this is softness” or only mental labels suggest this?

There isn’t an I experiencing the sensation. There’s just the sensation. And no, warmness and softness are only labels. The sensation itself is indescribable.

So there are sensations with simultaneously arising mental labels (thoughts). So the “sense” part is ‘coming from’ the sensation, the “warmness and hardness” part is ‘coming from’ the labels and when they are ‘welded together’ the “sense of warmth and harness” emerges. Can you see this?

Yes, definitely.

Good LOOKing. :)

“Thoughts tells me” – What is this ‘me’ that thoughts could talk to?

Ah, yes. There is no ‘me’ that the thoughts talk to. The thoughts just arise.

What is this ‘I’ that could see and hear and close its eyes?
Where is this ‘I’ located exactly?

It’s nowhere. It’s just a thought that arises. And thought is nowhere to be found.

What is this ‘I’ that supposedly owns the 5 senses?

The ‘I’ is just the thought itself. It can’t be found in any of the information coming from any of the five senses. So where else could it be but just a thought? If ‘reality’ consists of the information arising in the senses, ‘I’ is just the thought that makes all that information seem like it’s one thing, and connects it, or half of the subject-object equation of thought, anyway.

Look in the mirror. See the image that is called ‘body’.
Was the ‘body’ that is seen in the mirror the one that was born on a certain date?
Or is the ‘body’ that is being seen in the mirror, different to the ‘body’ that was born on a certain date?

Well, what is seen in the mirror is definitely not the same as the ‘body’ that was born on a certain date. But the ‘body’ that was born on a certain date is just a thought. It can’t be found by looking so it’s just an idea. And the ‘body’ seen in the mirror is just shapes and colors. Thoughts arise which say it is a body, but what is actually visible is a face, neck, shoulders, and then the frame of the mirror. There’s no body there, only an image. Thoughts arise that say, “That is me.” But there is no me to be seen.

Other than this thought, how else is it known that the ‘body’ was born on that specific date?
Or is the thought the only link?
And because that thought is believed in, it is said to be 'reality'.

Thought is the only link. And yes, belief makes the difference, because thought could say anything, but only the thoughts that are believed seem true. Belief is like the power source of thoughts to structure apparent ‘reality.’

However, all it is just a thought appearing that is believed in?
Can you see this?

Can you see that “This body was born on xxxx” is simply a thought appearing that is believed in?
And nothing more than that.

Yes--I see that.

So, can this body have a past?

There is no body to have a past. Just a bunch of images, sensations, etc. that thought labels “body.”

Or everything that is labelled as ‘past’ is just a mental story?
Other than contents of thought stories, is there a ‘past’?

No, the past is just thought, just a story.

Can time be experienced?

Time is only a thought. Sensations change, and thought orders that change into a story with the concept of time.

Thank you for the guidance,
R

[Vivien]

Dear Riley,

The ‘I’ is just the thought itself. It can’t be found in any of the information coming from any of the five senses. So where else could it be but just a thought?

Has it been CLEARLY seen that the ‘I’ is only a thought, or it is rather a logical conclusion at this moment?

Thought is the only link. And yes, belief makes the difference, because thought could say anything, but only the thoughts that are believed seem true. Belief is like the power source of thoughts to structure apparent ‘reality.’

Good observations.

There is no body to have a past. Just a bunch of images, sensations, etc. that thought labels “body.”

and

Time is only a thought. Sensations change, and thought orders that change into a story with the concept of time.

Good LOOKing. :)

OK then, let’s dig a bit deeper. Here is an interesting exercise on control.

Choose one of your arms - It doesn't matter which.
When you have done that, rest for a moment and then when you want to, raise that arm into the air.
Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire...

What is this 'I' that is controlling the arm?
Can a controlling 'I' be located?

What is this 'I' that is choosing which arm to raise?
Can you find an 'I' that is doing the choosing?

Love, Vivien

[Wreath]

Has it been CLEARLY seen that the ‘I’ is only a thought, or it is rather a logical conclusion at this moment?

It's still a little fuzzy on the clear-seeing level. There has to be focus to see it clearly and then it fades.

Choose one of your arms - It doesn't matter which.
When you have done that, rest for a moment and then when you want to, raise that arm into the air.
Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire...

What is this 'I' that is controlling the arm?
Can a controlling 'I' be located?

What is this 'I' that is choosing which arm to raise?
Can you find an 'I' that is doing the choosing?

This one was really effective at evoking more clear-seeing.

The arm is lifting. There's no controlling 'I' to be found. This seems very odd, because it seems like the arm is raising only as an automatic reaction to the words you wrote. It's almost like those words made the arm raise. And there's no 'I' reading the words or raising the arm. There's just automatic action, with no one doing the action. Very spooky. But even 'very spooky' is just a thought. There is no spookiness or any other quality in experience. There's nothing but automatic action.

No 'I' chooses which arm to raise, though the right arm raised first perhaps out of automatic habit of being right-handed. So maybe there was no choice just the automatic act.

It seems like if I don't exist to even move my body, are there any choices? Have 'I' ever acted or chosen? If thought is the only place where the 'I' resides then 'I' have no control over anything. I have never done anything and never could do anything. It's not possible to act. There are only acts.

Again, this feels, of a moment, spooky and surreal, but then the clear seeing itself dissolves that response because it is clear that 'spooky' and 'surreal' are only thoughts and they do not exist. This unadorned seeing has no qualities.

[Wreath]

P.S., I may not be able to reply again until Friday, as I'll be going out of town tomorrow. Just letting you know.

[Vivien]

Dear Riley,

It's almost like those words made the arm raise.

How is this known that “the words made the arm raise”?
Is it possible that raising the arm happen by ‘itself’ then thoughts came interpreting the experience “the words made the arm raise”?

No 'I' chooses which arm to raise, though the right arm raised first perhaps out of automatic habit of being right-handed.

Here is another example, how thoughts jump in to try to give ‘meaning’ and interpretation on the experience.
Can you see this?

It seems like if I don't exist to even move my body, are there any choices? Have 'I' ever acted or chosen? If thought is the only place where the 'I' resides then 'I' have no control over anything. I have never done anything and never could do anything. It's not possible to act. There are only acts.

Good questions :)

You can investigate throughout the day how choice or decision is made, while washing teeth, dressing up, driving, walking, talking to ‘others’…

Let’s have a deeper look on thoughts.

Where thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
What is the thinker of thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

P.S., I may not be able to reply again until Friday, as I'll be going out of town tomorrow. Just letting you know.

Thank you for letting me know.

Love, Vivien

[Wreath]

How is this known that “the words made the arm raise”?
Is it possible that raising the arm happen by ‘itself’ then thoughts came interpreting the experience “the words made the arm raise”?

Here is another example, how thoughts jump in to try to give ‘meaning’ and interpretation on the experience.
Can you see this?

Yes, I totally see this, and in fact I had a twinge of falseness when I wrote it at first. But I thought I'd go ahead and write it anyway to see your response, rather than hold it back.

Good questions :)

You can investigate throughout the day how choice or decision is made, while washing teeth, dressing up, driving, walking, talking to ‘others’…

I've been doing this, and it's been consistently impossible to find anyone performing any of the acts. This seems to be the answer to "is there free will." For free will to exist, there has to be an "I" who has that will. And there isn't one! So there is no free will, no person acting. There are just actions. Still, I don't see this clearly at all times. I still get sucked into my story. But a little less each day it seems.

Where thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Thoughts don't come from anywhere or go anywhere. Any interpretation of where a thought comes from or is going is itself a thought.

"I" can't do anything to thoughts--the thoughts just happen. It seems there can be a thought that appears to stop in the middle, but it's not me making it happen anymore than it's me making my arm raise. Same with prediction of thoughts or stopping painful/negative thoughts. The thoughts just occur. They're just happening automatically.

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
What is the thinker of thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

This "I" that supposedly thinks can no more be found in experience than the "I" that supposedly moves the arm. Thought has no thinker, since the thinker is itself a thought, just like in the sensing exercises.

Yeah, there's no one at the wheel of the car. The car is driving itself, so to speak. But...the thoughts still seem to use the concept "I" as a useful tool. It's like the mechanism of thought uses the concept of "I" as a tool to make sense of the world. So "I" doesn't ever really disappear, does it? It just becomes obvious that it's only a thought and it becomes clear that everything is happening automatically. Does that sound right? Or is that another trap?

[Vivien]

Hi Riley,

And there isn't one! So there is no free will, no person acting. There are just actions. Still, I don't see this clearly at all times. I still get sucked into my story. But a little less each day it seems.

Is there an expectation here that after seeing no-self being lost in the story and identification with the I-thought won’t happen again?

This "I" that supposedly thinks can no more be found in experience than the "I" that supposedly moves the arm. Thought has no thinker, since the thinker is itself a thought, just like in the sensing exercises.

Good LOOKing :)

So "I" doesn't ever really disappear, does it? It just becomes obvious that it's only a thought and it becomes clear that everything is happening automatically. Does that sound right?

This is a very good question, but I leave it to you for answer for ‘yourself’.

Is it necessary or even useful for the I-thought to go away?
Or is it ‘enough’ to see that the ‘I’ is nothing more than a thought that doesn’t point to anything real?


Let’s dig a bit deeper. Here is an interesting exercise on the body.
With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from those four senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does it have a weight or a volume of the body?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there an inside or outside?
What is the body in the actual experience?

Is there a hearer of sounds, or just hearing?
Is there a see-er of sights, or just seeing?
Is there a smeller of smells, or just smelling?
Is there a taster of tastes, or just tasting?
Is there a feeler of sensation, or just sensation?
Is there a thinker of thoughts or just thinking?
Is there an experiencer of experience (this life)...or just life?

Please go through these questions one-by-one. Not just think of them, but actually eat some food and taste it. So when about smelling, actually smell something (same with the other senses).

Love, Vivien

[Wreath]

I'm sorry to be MIA here, but it's been very busy with the birth of my new nephew and a lot of family in town. I don't want to rush my responses, so I'll be back to reply more thoroughly as soon as I'm able.

Thanks!
R

[Vivien]

Thank you Riley for letting me. I’m looking forward for your reply.

Love, Vivien

[Vivien]

Dear Riley,

How things are going?

Love, Vivien

[Wreath]

Sorry for the hiatus! I'm back.

Is it necessary or even useful for the I-thought to go away?
Or is it ‘enough’ to see that the ‘I’ is nothing more than a thought that doesn’t point to anything real?

This is an important sticking point for me. When I see it now, it seems like, no, of course it’s not necessary or useful for the “I”-thought to go away. After all, if it’s seen only as a thought, then there’s nothing to really get rid of. The “I” was never really there in the first place, so how can it be gotten rid of? This is an important thing for me to see now, because part of me is still waiting for some dramatic restructuring of the personality to accompany awakening….but nothing will change. What could change? I’m starting to see that nothing really changes with this process. It’s just seeing what was there all along.

Let’s dig a bit deeper. Here is an interesting exercise on the body.
With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from those four senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does it have a weight or a volume of the body?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there an inside or outside?
What is the body in the actual experience?

We did this exercise before, but I went through it again anyway, and again, all there is is sensation and though interpreting the sensation. But the thought is nowhere to be found. So there is no body, no qualities of the body.

Is there a hearer of sounds, or just hearing?
Is there a see-er of sights, or just seeing?
Is there a smeller of smells, or just smelling?
Is there a taster of tastes, or just tasting?
Is there a feeler of sensation, or just sensation?
Is there a thinker of thoughts or just thinking?
Is there an experiencer of experience (this life)...or just life?

There is no hearer of sounds, just hearing. There are thoughts that arise with sounds that label the sounds or represent opinions about the sounds. But no one is hearing the sounds. No one is thinking the thoughts.

There is seeing, but no one is seeing them. Part of the sights get labeled by thought as “me” (my arms, hands…) but that is only thought and no one is thinking it.

There is no one smelling, only the smells and the thoughts about the smells (which again, are nowhere to be found).

There is no taster, only the taste. The taste of a dried apricot (even "dried apricot" is just a thought)...it’s just there. Just a taste. Impossible to describe.

There is no feeler, only the sensation. But thought labels sensations good or bad, pleasurable or not, and wants to move toward one and not the other. So everything is evaluated by thought. But that too is an automatic process. There is no one doing the thinking. (Which answers the next question.)

And no, there is no one to be found experiencing life. There is only life going on mechanically all by itself.

It seems like it’s the emotions that make the “I” seem real--that turns empty thoughts into beliefs. Because even though I see this, there are still emotions that make certain thoughts seem real. Maybe that’s a direction to go next...

More and more “I’m” beginning to feel a sense of a wide open space all around me. So many of the stories I’ve identified with are falling away because I'm just getting sick of them and dropping them. The whole “seeking” thing is falling away effortlessly, simply because it’s become a boring and stupid burden. I’m sick of the search. It just goes on and on and leads nowhere. What is there to seek? The seeking was the mistake. And all my ideas from the past about the “holy” or the “transcendent…” Nothing is holy or transcendent. Those are just thoughts. There’s just big, open space with no one in it. From now on, “I” am just going to do whatever I do, without trying. Who is there to try? There’s just life going on and on. It’ll go however it goes.

Thanks,
R