Looking for a guide to explore the changes of life

[Ingen]

without using thought, feelings, emotions, or sensations I can't sense my gender, my height or any other limits.

You have to use something! It is enough to eliminate thought (stories). Emotions and feelings can be broken down to bodily sensations plus thought.

But can you even choose not to have sensations?

It has been helpful to revisit the exercises.

I recommend to just keep doing them, whenever you think of it. It can also be fun, and kind of relaxing.
E.g. sound: Is the sound "outside" of you or is there just higher and lower volume sound which gets constructed to "space" via thought and imagination? Is there an activity "hearing" taking place, performed by a "hearer"?

[adam_brunt]

I can't even fathom how different life would carry on if people did not associate with their stories. That's what people do! if you don't have a story you kind of get ignored in some ways by the world.

[Ingen]

I can't even fathom how different life would carry on if people did not associate with their stories.

Don't worry about what you think that people do or don't do. It is enough if you see through your own story - i.e. see that "Adam" isn't more real than the protagonist of a fairytale.

if you don't have a story you kind of get ignored in some ways by the world.

What is this "I" that can have a story or not?

[adam_brunt]

if you don't have a story you kind of get ignored in some ways by the world.



What is this "I" that can have a story or not?

It's that fear of being ignored that sustains the identity isn't it? I see how ridiculous it is. How do we relate to each other without a story or an identity. This shift in seeing through the illusion seems very subtle yet difficult to fully grasp without a mental process involved. And whether we see through the identity doesn't seem to matter much if everything just keeps on going and the powerful keep on running the show. without an identity how do we stand up for our beliefs and for each other?


I see that everything I write is thinking and perhaps flawed but these thoughts linger in the process of identity.

seeing the truth of what we are doesn't mean the world will ever become more romantic or perfect. that feeling of being tetherless opens a vast feeling of size and space I could disappear through.

[Ingen]

Dear Adam, I'd suggest you stop philosophizing and tell me what is happening in your everyday life. Really down to earth. You don't really answer my questions!

without an identity how do we stand up for our beliefs and for each other?

Who or what is it that could "stand up for its beliefs"?

[adam_brunt]

Dear Adam, I'd suggest you stop philosophizing and tell me what is happening in your everyday life. Really down to earth. You don't really answer my questions!

I understand this, but this is what is coming up for me.

I will try to stay with the direct experience from now on.

Everything is fine when I stop thinking!

I will get back to this message board, later, after I spend some time with direct experience.

Thanks for your time and help.

[Ingen]

You're welcome!

Everything is fine when I stop thinking!

What happens when you're thinking? Does the "I" come into existence?

[adam_brunt]

What happens when you're thinking? Does the "I" come into existence?

That's what it appears. But, also there is just thinking sometimes. Like when I'm asked a straightforward question I may say the answer right away without trying to know the answer or creating a manipulated response.

[Ingen]

when I'm asked a straightforward question I may say the answer right away without trying to know the answer or creating a manipulated response

Does the I exist when you are not answering right away? What is this I that is "creating a manipulated response"?

I say there is no I, has never been. What comes up when you read this?

[adam_brunt]

Does the I exist when you are not answering right away? What is this I that is "creating a manipulated response"?

I say there is no I, has never been. What comes up when you read this?

There is seeing that all the responses are connected to memory and past experiences. The approaches that worked to achieve a certain result are repeated and unsuccessful approaches are repeated less often or not at all. There is a constant observing and development of new, better personality traits. This all a piece by piece process to fabricate an I based identity.

When I read that there is no I, there are thoughts about the development of an identity created out of response to be accepted and cared about. I can feel the need to be accepted by others and the slow process of sustaining identity, yet behind that knowing that I am something more that can not be represented by certain behaviors, thoughts and words.

When I do not respond right away, it feels like the response is coming more from a place of identity. But, coming from a place of identity is an observation, so the observation may not necessarily be true.

I have no doubt that I am aware and that that awareness never goes any where. Identity comes and goes in that space of awareness.

[Ingen]

ll the responses are connected to memory and past experiences. The approaches that worked to achieve a certain result are repeated and unsuccessful approaches are repeated less often or not at all. There is a constant observing and development of new, better personality traits. This all a piece by piece process to fabricate an I based identity.

Yes! Thoughts are working incessantly on building a seemingly real entity with a certain identity.

I can feel the need to be accepted by others and the slow process of sustaining identity,

What is that "you" that needs to be accepted by others? Is it the body? Is it thoughts?

yet behind that knowing that I am something more that can not be represented by certain behaviors, thoughts and words.

I don't see it as helpful to identify with a bigger Awareness-self, and lament the identification with the smaller self.
Stay with the conventional, everyday self. The one which feels anxiety, gets hungry, makes plans for tomorrow.

Does it exist? Who makes the decision to get up in the morning? Who is driving the car? Who is deciding whom to smile to? Watch how this works, and report from direct experience!

[adam_brunt]

What is that "you" that needs to be accepted by others? Is it the body? Is it thoughts?

It's the thoughts that are linked to wanting to feel a certain way or wanting to have the support of others, for example.

I would say the body looks for security and uses thought to get it since that is how things have been learned. But, it is only an idea of a certain type of security.

I don't see it as helpful to identify with a bigger Awareness-self, and lament the identification with the smaller self.
Stay with the conventional, everyday self. The one which feels anxiety, gets hungry, makes plans for tomorrow.

That was reference to the sense of living within limitations. Is that not helpful to notice? I understand we don't want to start associating with a new identity!

Feeling anxiety feels very threatening and really stirs up my identity, but letting everything just take place as it will relaxes the response to a perceived threat. It is a series of strong sensations and thoughts, but they all just pass and I am back to that space of awareness.

Does it exist? Who makes the decision to get up in the morning? Who is driving the car? Who is deciding whom to smile to? Watch how this works, and report from direct experience!

They all must just happen I understand. But, if I get up in the morning and have strong sense of wanting to go back to sleep, then is either outcome of either getting up or staying in bed just what is happening?

[adam_brunt]

Does it exist? Who makes the decision to get up in the morning? Who is driving the car? Who is deciding whom to smile to? Watch how this works, and report from direct experience!

No one individual is doing these things, but I can observe a pattern in how each of these actions is carried out. There may be a change to smile more from one day to the next. It may happen or it may not. I can observe the natural responses versus the controlled responses and they each feel different from one another. There is the idea of wanting to be a better person and trying to behave differently, so your actions may change or not. It seems that through direct experience we are supposed to conclude that everything goes on just fine without a perceiver doing the perceiving.

[Ingen]

What is that "you" that needs to be accepted by others? Is it the body? Is it thoughts?

It's the thoughts that are linked to wanting to feel a certain way or wanting to have the support of others, for example.

Yes! Do you see that the apparent entity "Adam" isn't there? That there are just thoughts, saying "what is happening now is not good enough"?
And do you also see that wanting these thought patterns to stop is also saying "this is not good enough"? The thought patterns are like waves in the ocean. They are happening no matter what you think about them.

What if there is no way out?

I understand we don't want to start associating with a new identity!

Yes, that's what I meant.

Feeling anxiety feels very threatening and really stirs up my identity, but letting everything just take place as it will relaxes the response to a perceived threat. It is a series of strong sensations and thoughts,but they all just pass and I am back to that space of awareness .

See above. While "stirring" happens – is there an entity "having" these emotions? Or is there just a thought "I want to get away from identification, back to the space of awareness". ?

It seems that through direct experience we are supposed to conclude that everything goes on just fine without a perceiver doing the perceiving.

If you find a perceiver doing perceiving, that's fine too. Tell me about it!

There is the idea of wanting to be a better person and trying to behave differently, so your actions may change or not.

Right. The idea of being a person implies that you also could be a "better person". Less anxious, less identified, more peaceful.

Could you?

[adam_brunt]

Yes! Do you see that the apparent entity "Adam" isn't there? That there are just thoughts, saying "what is happening now is not good enough"?
And do you also see that wanting these thought patterns to stop is also saying "this is not good enough"? The thought patterns are like waves in the ocean. They are happening no matter what you think about them.

What if there is no way out?

Yes I do see this. In fact, I've been having many experiences like the ones that happened today. Today on several occasions I was doing something and my sense of a self just disappeared. Everything was just happening and it felt like it was happening without a me present. Just happening. With my recent anxiety patterns I get a little scared when this happens it feels like danger on the level of identity. Like "where did I go? oh no there's a problem!". It is not like daydreaming or spacing out as some people experience at all. I feel very present yet not there. Sometimes there is also the bouncing back and forth between reality almost like dreaming and being awake is alternating.

If there is no way out from thoughts? That is fine.

While "stirring" happens – is there an entity "having" these emotions? Or is there just a thought "I want to get away from identification, back to the space of awareness". ?

It is a series of thoughts that want things to calm down and to stay calm through the sensations that arrive with the associated anxiety.

The idea of being a person implies that you also could be a "better person". Less anxious, less identified, more peaceful.

Could you?

It appears that thoughts come up from the sense of being perhaps a better person and then it is believed and sustained by more thoughts. Thought thinks about the ways that you have become a better person as if thought had something to do with it.