grateful for any help

[andrew123]

Hello.
A couple months ago I came across this site and read the gatecrashers book. Partly through I thought I got "it" and saw that there is no little dude running the show. it seemed clear that life just happens for a short while. I went through a really pleasant state for about a week or two and then it faded and the sense of I got really dominant again.
So I suppose I had some insight but certainly didn't get "it".

Any help to push or pull me in the appropriate direction would be lovely.

[codyjdennis]

Hey Andrew,

Thank you for your intro! It's great to have you here. My name is Cody and I am more than happy to guide you. :)

Just a few technical things to get out of the way..

1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from personal experience only.
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main page - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
5. Read the FAQ page to get an idea of what we do here - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/LU_FAQ.html
6. Learn how to use the quote function when responded to messages - viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

If you agree to the above and take me on as a guide we can get started with the questions below.
---------------

What do you expect will happen when you have seen through the illusion of Me?
How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?

Best
Cody :-)

[andrew123]

I certainly agree to the guidelines.

What do you expect will happen when you have seen through the illusion of Me?

I expect that it will become easier to see that a thought is just a thought and is not who I am.
I've looked a bit and seen that I can't control what the next thought is.
But I still identify with them most of the time.
So I think that if I have seen this to be 100% true, then it would become more challenging to identify with a thought than to NOT identify with it.

How will Life change?

I guess I imagine that the little point centered around me will start to change direction.
Without the baggage of the self I might be more focused and have an easier relationship with the world.
But if there is no me, then what will shift?
Maybe nothing?
I'm not sure about this.

How will you change?

I guess I feel that less stress would eventually be felt.
Less need to be a certain way or being uncomfortable with the way things are.
Maybe that is a wish or hope more than an expectation though?

What will be different?

Maybe there will be less of this, less of that.
Not having gone through this before, I can't really say what will be different.
I'm not even sure why it is I must do this or what exactly I hope to get (or lose) from the experience.
But it seems pretty obvious that I should be here.

[codyjdennis]

- I've looked a bit and seen that I can't control what the next thought is.
- But if there is no me, then what will shift?

You seem to have very few expectations which is great.

There may or may not be change as a result from the Seeing. There is no guarantee. This is not about getting rid of the self as there is no-self to get rid of to begin with. You have already had some great insights and you are right on point. What is there to change or shift if there is no me?

----------

What we're going to do is just be very very simple and take a look in Direct Experience (the moment to moment seamless Experiencing that without a doubt Is. Sensations, Thought, and the unmistakable sensation of being alive/aware). This is SO simple that it's very easily overlooked. I will point and all that is needed is honest looking and responses from "DE".

Let's just start with this though..
What comes up when it's read that: there is no "you" in any way, shape or form, there never has been a "you", nor is there or ever will be a "you"?

Cody

[andrew123]

What comes up when it's read that: there is no "you" in any way, shape or form, there never has been a "you", nor is there or ever will be a "you"?

Feelings of peace. Thoughts about how thinking and hearing "you're not good enough" aren't meaningful.
Thoughts about how if there is no me, then it doesn't matter what I do, like if there isn't enough time for things important to me then it's ok because there is no me.
Also thoughts about how I don't have to worry about offending someone else or doing the correct thing because there is no one else either. And if there is no me then there is no control over what is done anyways.

[codyjdennis]

Hey Andrew,

Feelings of peace. Thoughts about how thinking and hearing "you're not good enough" aren't meaningful.

Thoughts about how if there is no me, then it doesn't matter what I do, like if there isn't enough time for things important to me then it's ok because there is no me.

Also thoughts about how I don't have to worry about offending someone else or doing the correct thing because there is no one else either. And if there is no me then there is no control over what is done anyways.

Thanks for your response :)

Notice though how "no-self" is becoming another idea here just like the self has been/is an idea. No self is just a pointer. Just more thoughts/words, not something to hold on to.

With that in mind...

"What does the word "I" or "me" point to, here and now?"

[andrew123]

I'm not sure what it points to in the present moment. I can see the word "chair" is a pointer to the thing I'm sitting on right now.
I can see that "hand" points to the hand in front of me.
But I don't see me unless me is the body.
I'm not sure what me or I points to.
All the other things that are perceived have clear pointers.

[codyjdennis]

Yes! I can tell you are really looking.
Isn't it interesting that when it is looked for in the present moment it's mysteriously no where to be found.

But I don't see me unless me is the body.

Let's take a look here.

1) What part of the body contains the "I"? Can a location be found?

2) With your eyes closed can you find a definitive line between the body and what is 'outside' the body?

Now with your eyes open, look for this boundary. Is there really one here now?

3) Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?"

[andrew123]

OK now we are getting to where I'm stuck.

1) What part of the body contains the "I"? Can a location be found?

There is a sensation of it behind my eyes.

2) With your eyes closed can you find a definitive line between the body and what is 'outside' the body?

It does appear that there is an inside/outside boundary. If you ask me what sensations are perceived on my left foot I can say that I perceive sensations on that foot.
But if you ask me what sensations are present in the foot of my cat, or what sensations the couch is feeling I don't have much to tell you.

3) Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?"

I guess the boundary I'm describing is simply a boundary of where sensations are. But I there is still a belief that this boundary is real and describes "me."

[codyjdennis]

OK now we are getting to where I'm stuck.

OK. Take your time with these questions below if you need to. No rush.

There is a sensation of it behind my eyes.

Is there actually an 'I' or 'self' there though?

It does appear that there is an inside/outside boundary. If you ask me what sensations are perceived on my left foot I can say that I perceive sensations on that foot.

1) Is there really an inside/outside boundary? Look closely here. Where does the "outside" end and the "inside" begin. The assumption is that there is a very clear location that is 'inside' and 'outside' but.... is it true here right now? Can a real distinct dividing line be found?

2) Is there a "you" perceiving sensations? Or are sensations just happening?

I guess the boundary I'm describing is simply a boundary of where sensations are. But there is still a belief that this boundary is real and describes "me."

Take a really close look at the sensation itself. You can use the example you gave with the foot.

Look directly at the sensation happening there. Where is this boundary? Is there actually a boundary at all? Or just sensation itself?


-Cody

[andrew123]

There is a sensation of it behind my eyes.

Is there actually an 'I' or 'self' there though?

There appears to only be a point of perception there, nothing more.

It does appear that there is an inside/outside boundary. If you ask me what sensations are perceived on my left foot I can say that I perceive sensations on that foot.

1) Is there really an inside/outside boundary? Look closely here. Where does the "outside" end and the "inside" begin. The assumption is that there is a very clear location that is 'inside' and 'outside' but.... is it true here right now? Can a real distinct dividing line be found?
2) Is there a "you" perceiving sensations? Or are sensations just happening?

Sensations seems to come up in different locations in the body.
I can't control what is noticed or what comes up, but they do seem to come from specific locations from within the body and I haven't noticed any coming from outside the body.

I guess the boundary I'm describing is simply a boundary of where sensations are. But there is still a belief that this boundary is real and describes "me."

Take a really close look at the sensation itself. You can use the example you gave with the foot.

Look directly at the sensation happening there. Where is this boundary? Is there actually a boundary at all? Or just sensation itself?

Again, I haven't seen any clear boundary. But there does seem to be a sensation of proprioception that links the sensations to specific parts of the body.

[codyjdennis]

There appears to only be a point of perception there, nothing more.

Nice! Yes, there is only perception there. No "I".

Check it out further: Is there an 'I' Seeing, Hearing, Feeling, Smelling, Tasting? Or is it all just happening?

Sensations seems to come up in different locations in the body.
I can't control what is noticed or what comes up, but they do seem to come from specific locations from within the body and I haven't noticed any coming from outside the body.

Sure, It seems they come up in different locations.

Let's look at this.

1) You're probably sitting in a chair or something similar to it. Is the sensation itself and that alone, actual proof it is coming from "within" rather than "outside" this thing we call the body? Or is all that is there sensation?

2) When the eyes are closed where is this thing we call the body? What is the body with the eyes closed?

I don't know if you answered this one..

3) Is there an I perceiving the sensations? Or are sensations just happening? What's truer?

[codyjdennis]

Thought I'd post this as well before I get to work..

Looking as we are doing here is very similar to say, as an example, if a painting on the wall is there or not. Either it obviously is or it obviously isn't.

Reality or experience here now is kind of like that. It's not a story, either what we are looking at/for is or isn't.

Beliefs or assumptions about the self and other things are kind of like the painting obviously not being on the wall but thought saying "But it's definitely there. It has to be!"..or "It seems like it's there".

This is why it takes only a quick moment of Seeing for it to click. In the analogy...once the painting is noticed not to be there it's just obvious. It's always been that way.

Hope this helps a bit

Best,
Cody

[andrew123]

Is there an 'I' Seeing, Hearing, Feeling, Smelling, Tasting? Or is it all just happening?

I dont see any control over any of the senses.
Different things are heard and felt. They happen when they happen.

1) You're probably sitting in a chair or something similar to it. Is the sensation itself and that alone, actual proof it is coming from "within" rather than "outside" this thing we call the body? Or is all that is there sensation?

I guess if I drop all prior knowledge of the body then no, the sensations are not proof in themselves of being inside something. I suppose they are not proof of the body being mine.

2) When the eyes are closed where is this thing we call the body? What is the body with the eyes closed

With the eyes closed if I only pay attention to the present moment there are only sensations, no body.

3) Is there an I perceiving the sensations? Or are sensations just happening? What's truer?

Definitely the sensations are just happening.

[codyjdennis]

Really great looking!
You're spot on

I suppose they are not proof of the body being mine.

Really nice insight. Take a look a little further just to confirm. Can a thought, I, own a body?
--
Since we're talking about the body try out this exercise today.

"get up… walk slowly…
is there a controller that controls walking?
or
is there just walking?"

you can try it with various activities throughout the day also. See if there is actually a self controlling these actions or if all of it is just happening.